Boy, didn't we learn ANYTHING from BioShock?

[Dr Spaceman]

As you undoubtedly know, The Daily Show and The Colbert Report have been focusing pretty hard on the financial crisis. One of my favorite bits was Wednesday's The Word on the Colbert Report: http://www.hulu.com/watch/62050/the-colbert-report-the-word---rand-illusion#x-4,vclip,1.

All I could think about during this report was how Andrew Ryan too was heavily influenced by Randian philosophy, and the whole world of Bioshock forms a fairly complete argument against Ayn Rand's ideas and Objectivism in general.

Another question is whether or not we can even submit a video game as counter-argument. Atlas Shrugged is merely a novel, not a philosophical treatise or anything, and is being touted by some conservatives as a blueprint for the future. Can't we just as reasonably use a game in the same way? Are video games appropriate in such an important debate?

 

[Cowabungaa]

Meeh, can only be seen if you're in the US.

But yes, I see no reason why games couldn't be used for that purpous. They're just another form of media, and just like the more established forms of media for this purpous (film and literature) games can also be used to transfer a message. In an interactive way no less, makes it even better if you ask me ;-)

 

[Flap Jack452]

The game showed a scenario in which those ideals have failed, So yes I think it would be appropriate to use them to show how things might end up in the real world.

 

[confernal]

I found that Bioshock had many philosophical ideas to it... It serves as a fine example of what too much freedom and consumerism can do too a society when pushed into the relams of the extreme... which I find is often a popular notion around here.

 

[PirateKing]

I hope for a day where games and comics are regarded as highly as novels and movies.

 

[Shycte]

Cant see the video :/

 

[TheTygerfire]

And it also showed how loss of ethics can destroy a society.

 

[Alex_P]

The actual Objectivism in BioShock is subtle. It's Andrew Ryan's theory of value [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theory_of_value]. He definitely comes off as a guy who very deeply believes in the Randian idea that "real" value comes from people with Big Brains coming up with Big Ideas, not from labor in the Marxian sense. That's central to why he creates the society of Rapture and why it develops a disaffected underclass and goes to hell.

-- Alex

 

[SomeBritishDude]

I hope for a day where games and comics are regarded as highly as novels and movies.

Watchmen won the Hugo award and is one of times magazines top 100 best novels in the last century.

Comics recieved their savior in the 80's. It may take awhile, but games will get theirs.

 

[FinalGamer]

I hope for a day where games and comics are regarded as highly as novels and movies.

Comics are getting close to that thanks to The Dark Knight actually getting serious Oscar consideration and the very mature Watchmen adaptation, so at least comics will get their podium soon. As for videogames, that's gonna be a bit of a while, but we can try, there's a lot of games out there that wrestle with mature concepts such as Mass Effect on alien racism, failed diplomacy and economic crises, or I Have No Mouth And I Must Scream as a twisted tale of the darkest parts of humanity.

BioShock had a wonderful question presented to the gamer. You were playing the game not because you wanted to, but because the game wanted you to. You were taken along a linear experience like many other games before you, it posed a strange existential dilemma upon you not only as a gamer but as a person, of how much you truly are in control of your life.
Marvellous.

 

[Xanadu84]

The part of Bioshock that stands out most in my mind is from Fontaine, where he said (At least, to the best of my memory) "They thought they were all going to be captains of industry. They forgot that someone had to clean the toilets" That pretty much sums it up there. Rich are Rich because they rely on the poor. The rich owe there success to the poor, so they also owe a livable wage.

I loathe Ayn Rand, and Moral Objectivism in general. Every time I hear of her, I can't help but think of those passive aggressive key chains that say, "You say ***** like its a bad thing". Self-justifying elevation of selfishness. Theirs a point to it, but its a point that is only relevant in extreme situations on the exact opposite end of the spectrum that were currently in.

If I remember correctly, Rand was some royalty over in Russia, and lost everything when the Communists took hold. Hmm, I don't suppose her Philosophy has any...biased personal agenda...do you?

 

[Meta Like That]

I think it would be hard to use a popular video game as a philosophical or political discussion tool in an official debate venue.

Without getting laughed at, anyway.

 

[sirdanrhodes]

Cant see the video :/

Yeah, screw us non-Americans. I might just proxy...

 

[CrafterMan]

The part of Bioshock that stands out most in my mind is from Fontaine, where he said (At least, to the best of my memory) "They thought they were all going to be captains of industry. They forgot that someone had to clean the toilets" That pretty much sums it up there. Rich are Rich because they rely on the poor. The rich owe there success to the poor, so they also owe a livable wage.

I loathe Ayn Rand, and Moral Objectivism in general. Every time I hear of her, I can't help but think of those passive aggressive key chains that say, "You say ***** like its a bad thing". Self-justifying elevation of selfishness. Theirs a point to it, but its a point that is only relevant in extreme situations on the exact opposite end of the spectrum that were currently in.

If I remember correctly, Rand was some royalty over in Russia, and lost everything when the Communists took hold. Hmm, I don't suppose her Philosophy has any...biased personal agenda...do you?

You know to much sir!

Alexei, take care of this man!

Haha.

 

[Dr Spaceman]

The part of Bioshock that stands out most in my mind is from Fontaine, where he said (At least, to the best of my memory) "They thought they were all going to be captains of industry. They forgot that someone had to clean the toilets" That pretty much sums it up there. Rich are Rich because they rely on the poor. The rich owe there success to the poor, so they also owe a livable wage.

I think you hit it on the head. If you dropped that quote in a debate, I think people would be hugely impressed, and Randian apologists may have trouble responding. It sucks though that you'd probably have to lie and say it comes from Sartre or Krugman or some other philosopher or economist since a video game quote probably would totally undermine your credibility.

 

[squid5580]

I hope for a day where games and comics are regarded as highly as novels and movies.

They are by alot of people. Not everyone watches a movie and catches the philosophical aspects. If I hadn't read it I never would have seen the the message behind the "Dead" series. Some people won't take it seriously unless it is in the bible. Different people are affected by different mediums. I think it is the message not the medium that is important.

 

[Zac_Dai]

I think personally the biggest flaw with Randian arguments and what happened to Rapture was summed up by the ingame quote that went something like.

"Ryan brought people to Rapture to be captains of industry, but they still needed someone to clean the toilets"

Its ignorant to think that those at the very bottom will quietly endure their lives. Eventually they will rise up.

EDIT: Someone beat me too it.

 

[Cowabungaa]

many of the inhabitants fail to use 'reason', an important aspect of Randian logic, to determine Fontaine's true goals, etc.

Loose from the rest, maybe a bit offtopic but meeh, but can't that actually be a part of Bioshock's argument against Rand: people don't always use logic and reason, that's not how people work. Something like that.

 

[new_age_reject]

I hope for a day where games and comics are regarded as highly as novels and movies.

This, not all comics are on the intellectual level of the damned Beano!

 

[WIUtomato]

As much as I would like to say "go right ahead" in your use of a video game as a counter-argument, there are a couple flaws.

The most glaring of said flaws is that as things are today, the only people who accept the whole "games-as-art" concept are, on the whole, other gamers. While we can see the development of games as a new art medium, most people are too afraid that they are corrupting our children (look what happened to Mass Effect), and look on most games as a convenient blame bucket for most of societies problems. In that kind of atmosphere, it will be nearly impossible to get anyone to take your argument seriously.

The second problem evolves from the fact that Bioshock, while a great game, was a work of fiction. It would be like arguing that pigs are inherently evil, and pointing to Animal Farm to back up your argument. I don?t disagree with anything you are saying, but I would think there are better sources to use to back up your points, sorry