Braid Creator Calls Social Games "Evil"
- Thread starter Logan Westbrook
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I don't play Zynga-type social games anyway because I'm not interested,so while I agree that it's misleading to refer to them strictly as "social games", calling them evil is definitely exessive.
I wish i could be a swanky executive or developer and just come out with whatever i wanted and have people take it seriously.
It strikes me as a bit juvenile that someone can just make a statement and have it lapped up by the media and general public just because of their position. Whether i agree with Blow or not, he's no more credible than you or me to denounce something as being outright "Evil". It doesn't matter if he made Braid or not; he cannot speak for the industry at large. To think so is rather conceited. Megalomaniacal much? Though whilst i may pick on him for making a statement like this, i know a lot of people "in the biz" tend to. If i remember rightly, Treyarch have been making all kinds of statements over the past few weeks.
If i called Captain Crunch evil, no-one would listen to my ramblings.
Seriously though, anyone with a 'tash like that is OBVIOUSLY plotting something.
It strikes me as a bit juvenile that someone can just make a statement and have it lapped up by the media and general public just because of their position. Whether i agree with Blow or not, he's no more credible than you or me to denounce something as being outright "Evil". It doesn't matter if he made Braid or not; he cannot speak for the industry at large. To think so is rather conceited. Megalomaniacal much? Though whilst i may pick on him for making a statement like this, i know a lot of people "in the biz" tend to. If i remember rightly, Treyarch have been making all kinds of statements over the past few weeks.
If i called Captain Crunch evil, no-one would listen to my ramblings.
Seriously though, anyone with a 'tash like that is OBVIOUSLY plotting something.
id agree with him, but frankly i dont consider social 'games' to anymore a game than screwing around on any given social networking site. i do wish more people would realize that there are some games designed to be fun instead of taking your money though. even obligatory cash-in sequels try to be fun in some way, mostly.
EDIT" id also like it known that i reloaded the page becasue the captcha actually displayed accented letters. the fuck, escapist? your really expecting me to randomly input those damn numpad combinations in hopes of finding the right accented letter? what about people who dont even know about that? is captcha from germany or something? our american keyboards arent meant for your crazy umlauts and what not...
EDIT" id also like it known that i reloaded the page becasue the captcha actually displayed accented letters. the fuck, escapist? your really expecting me to randomly input those damn numpad combinations in hopes of finding the right accented letter? what about people who dont even know about that? is captcha from germany or something? our american keyboards arent meant for your crazy umlauts and what not...
Yes social games are evil. Much like all conservatives are fascists, all liberals are communists, all Muslims are terrorists, and all Christians are fundamentalist morons.
He undermines his entire argument when he degenerates into generalizations, hyperbole, and proselytizing. Which, coincidentally, are the same techniques employed by the clueless talking-heads critics of video games propped up by the cable news networks.
He undermines his entire argument when he degenerates into generalizations, hyperbole, and proselytizing. Which, coincidentally, are the same techniques employed by the clueless talking-heads critics of video games propped up by the cable news networks.
Keep in mind, March Mayhem is coming up, and you know who is in it for the second year in a row. I think they want to keep that ad revenue rolling in, because they probably made a metric fuckton of money from the people coming over from Facebook to vote for Zynga... even though almost none of them stuck around after said tournament.Xanthious said:
March Mayhem was a total joke last year and will be again this year. It speaks poorly about any company or website that would willingly promote a company like Zynga in exchange for extra site traffic. They have a name for people that do that sort of thing . . . but I digress. This year I simply won't be participating in March Mayhem. The Escapist shit not only on this individual contest by choosing to ignore the obvious unfair advantage Zynga is afforded but their integrity as a whole by giving a company like Zynga any promotion what-so-ever regardless of what it offers this site in return.Sean Strife said:
The sad part about it is even when you corner Escapist staff about the issue they either dismiss the what you're saying as a non issue or offer up extremely weak justifications. Just go look at how the writer of this story danced around saying damn near anything bad about them. It seems that ever since they started sending the faceless hordes to this site for one month out of the year this site uses "kids gloves" when it comes to Zynga.
I think that there are three types of these 'social' games available on facebook.
The first category is the kind of game that ranks competition above all else. Something like Facebook's version of Tetrisfriends (which in my opinion declined horribly after becoming part of the FB) in where the stats and rankings of any of your friends it displayed. You can compete, and even have heard to head matches, and once daily send minor boosts to each other. You also play competitively against similarly ranked opponents, though you receive no bonuses to gameplay based on your friends list.
The second category is a game like Crazy Planets, where (at least in the beta version I tried) never actually encounter enemy teams in multiplayer, yet your team consists of you and three of your friends, who are just as powerful in they're games, yet only as skilled as you are, since you play as them. This is good for enjoying a game with friends who have similar tastes in games.
The last category is the one which I think causes the most rage on the issue. Games like MafiaWars and MightyPirates, where if you want to be able to participate in multiplayer without getting mutilated you need to either spend real currency on the most powerful weapons, or have a large list of friends to back you up. I know this to be especially true in mighty pirates, where you can only have one member of your ship perform one action per turn, which limits your survivability fircely. If your alone, you can shoot, aim, or make minor repairs. and that's you entire turn, where the opponets with their crew of ten can shoot five times, aim four to improve accuracy to about 100%, and repair your single shots worth of damage.
These types of games lead to people inviting random users as friends on forums to grow more powerful, which I think in part leads to security issues as now the information you only provide to your friends, or friends of friends, is available to strangers with possible malicious intents.
Edit: sorry about the triple post, I is a forum newb :/
The first category is the kind of game that ranks competition above all else. Something like Facebook's version of Tetrisfriends (which in my opinion declined horribly after becoming part of the FB) in where the stats and rankings of any of your friends it displayed. You can compete, and even have heard to head matches, and once daily send minor boosts to each other. You also play competitively against similarly ranked opponents, though you receive no bonuses to gameplay based on your friends list.
The second category is a game like Crazy Planets, where (at least in the beta version I tried) never actually encounter enemy teams in multiplayer, yet your team consists of you and three of your friends, who are just as powerful in they're games, yet only as skilled as you are, since you play as them. This is good for enjoying a game with friends who have similar tastes in games.
The last category is the one which I think causes the most rage on the issue. Games like MafiaWars and MightyPirates, where if you want to be able to participate in multiplayer without getting mutilated you need to either spend real currency on the most powerful weapons, or have a large list of friends to back you up. I know this to be especially true in mighty pirates, where you can only have one member of your ship perform one action per turn, which limits your survivability fircely. If your alone, you can shoot, aim, or make minor repairs. and that's you entire turn, where the opponets with their crew of ten can shoot five times, aim four to improve accuracy to about 100%, and repair your single shots worth of damage.
These types of games lead to people inviting random users as friends on forums to grow more powerful, which I think in part leads to security issues as now the information you only provide to your friends, or friends of friends, is available to strangers with possible malicious intents.
Edit: sorry about the triple post, I is a forum newb :/
Cooperation vs Exploitation.
It's no surprise that the highest grossing games rely on a combination of social exploitation and operant conditioning; Zynga's titles and World of Warcraft (and by extension, all MMORPGs that copy the WoW formula) do this, and it's highly profitable.
And yet I maintain that the gameplay in these titles is greatly diminished vs most other "traditional" (for a lack of a better word) games because the majority of the player's time is spent doing two things:
1) Grinding
2) Social Interaction (usually pertaining to grinding, or more specifically, Alleviating the boredom from #1)
This ignores the players that only do #1 of course ("Solo MMO players"); they just grind.
Combine that with the "Time for Money" gimmick and you have the formula for the absolute most lucrative games in the business.
In that regard, I agree with Jonathan Blow; these titles are quite evil in that they essentially exploit your social ties for money.
Now, I've no problem with multiplayer as a concept; that would be stupid if I did.
I simply dislike the premise of forcing players to grind for absurd periods of time, and then getting them to try to drag THEIR friends into the same mire, creating a vicious circle that most players never become aware of.
It's no surprise that the highest grossing games rely on a combination of social exploitation and operant conditioning; Zynga's titles and World of Warcraft (and by extension, all MMORPGs that copy the WoW formula) do this, and it's highly profitable.
And yet I maintain that the gameplay in these titles is greatly diminished vs most other "traditional" (for a lack of a better word) games because the majority of the player's time is spent doing two things:
1) Grinding
2) Social Interaction (usually pertaining to grinding, or more specifically, Alleviating the boredom from #1)
This ignores the players that only do #1 of course ("Solo MMO players"); they just grind.
Combine that with the "Time for Money" gimmick and you have the formula for the absolute most lucrative games in the business.
In that regard, I agree with Jonathan Blow; these titles are quite evil in that they essentially exploit your social ties for money.
Now, I've no problem with multiplayer as a concept; that would be stupid if I did.
I simply dislike the premise of forcing players to grind for absurd periods of time, and then getting them to try to drag THEIR friends into the same mire, creating a vicious circle that most players never become aware of.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying I agree with it, but I can see why they're doing it, since The Escapist is, first and foremost, a business. And I do agree it is kind of funny considering prior to last year's March Mayhem, they were more than happy to run the stories that painted Zynga in a very negative light, such as the quotes from Pincus where he basically admitted, on video, that he did every scumbag thing in the book and really didn't seem to regret it in anyway.Xanthious said:
Hmmmmmm A virtual system that makes you addicted to using your friends as tools in your personal conquest of an imaginary world. Your primary motivations for which are run-time errors in your brain and the underlying obsession with being better than everyone else (being cool). Sounds like "self obsessed narcissism! The Game!" Which IS evil(taking advantage of people who don't or even CANT resist you is like paying hobos to let you kick their teeth in, Go ahead and tell me that's not evil). But so is high fashion, children's card games and other fads. If you wanted to seriously take a stand against this you'd have to take most of western civilization apart at the seams or be an enormous hippocryte.
This is just a high concept virtual implementation of the basic principals that drive 90% of all commerce in our society, just without all that pretend utility and tradition to hide behind. So folks, this is what your HDTV, your brand of cereal, your choice of car, THIS is what your society looks like at its core. THIS is what people are talking about when they complain about rampant consumerism. THIS is the foundation upon which everything you build stands. Aint pretty is it?
This is just a high concept virtual implementation of the basic principals that drive 90% of all commerce in our society, just without all that pretend utility and tradition to hide behind. So folks, this is what your HDTV, your brand of cereal, your choice of car, THIS is what your society looks like at its core. THIS is what people are talking about when they complain about rampant consumerism. THIS is the foundation upon which everything you build stands. Aint pretty is it?
Dude, I called Zynga unethical, unscrupulous and greedy. I'm sorry if that's not enough for you, but I won't have my integrity questioned just because I won't descend to the level of Saturday morning cartoons in my criticism for the company.Xanthious said:
'Evil' is too harsh, he should've just stuck with 'unethical design' which seems to fit it more.
Time to go the FOX News route and make some random shit up. Zynga games are powered by babies being thrown into a furnace! I've seen it people!Logan Westbrook said: