Brink : No Girls Allowed

[Farseer Lolotea]

Sorry, not to nitpick here, but the game is developed by Splash Damage. Bethesda Softworks is Bethesda's publishing arm. Bethesda Game Studios is company's internal development studio. The last game Bethesda developed was Fallout 3.

Bethesda Softworks, has the bad habit of publishing really poor games (Rogue Warrior, WET, Demon Forge, etc.) which gives the company a bad image. Which, incidentally is why I make a point of alerting people to the distinction.

Good to know. But (disregard, I fail reading comprehension forever).

 

[Krantos]

Sorry, not to nitpick here, but the game is developed by Splash Damage. Bethesda Softworks is Bethesda's publishing arm. Bethesda Game Studios is company's internal development studio. The last game Bethesda developed was Fallout 3.

Bethesda Softworks, has the bad habit of publishing really poor games (Rogue Warrior, WET, Demon Forge, etc.) which gives the company a bad image. Which, incidentally is why I make a point of alerting people to the distinction.

Good to know. But how does that make it any less of a poor decision on the company's part, much less an outright good one?

Oh, no, it's a terrible decision. I agree with you, I just wanted to make sure your anger was pointed in the right direction (i.e. Splash Damage).

 

[Farseer Lolotea]

Oh, no, it's a terrible decision. I agree with you, I just wanted to make sure your anger was pointed in the right direction (i.e. Splash Damage).

Less "anger" than "exasperation." But I see, then. (And I misread something anyway.)

 

[Korten12]

I don't think people realize that making female models which don't exist normally (in this game) isn't just a flick of a switch and suddenly they get all of the models.

 

[Farseer Lolotea]

I don't think people realize that making female models which don't exist normally (in this game) isn't just a flick of a switch and suddenly they get all of the models.

No one's arguing that they're "just a flick of a switch." But the same can really be said of any of their much-vaunted customization options.

And there is no "normally." Female models don't exist in the game because they didn't bother to make them. They were considered less of a priority than my hypothetical ten separate slightly different hats.

 

[Gethsemani_v1legacy]

I don't think people realize that making female models which don't exist normally (in this game) isn't just a flick of a switch and suddenly they get all of the models.

Had they been included from the earliest design document and a constant and important part of the development process, then the developers would have worked with them just like with the male models. Extra work naturally, which the developers obviously felt could be better used by including supposedly stupifying amount of customization for the male model.

 

[loodmoney]

From the outset, we wanted to create a character customization system that was so deep and varied that you would never run into another player that looked exactly like you. As we got deeper into development, we were faced with an incredibly tough choice: massively cut back the amount of customization options as well as the quality of the assets, or cut female models.

One slightly humourous implication of all this: Brink is a game designed with men in mind. Specifically, men who would consider it a terrible faux pas to be seen fighting alonside a comrade with the same outfit:

[small]

• "Die, Resistance scum!"
  "Haha, that'll learn 'em...Uh, hey dude, did you get that jacket on sale or something?"
  "Yeah, from Ark Surplus last week, wh-- Oh. Oh man. Jeez this is embarrassing."
  "Yeah I don't mean to be a dick or anything, but uh, this is kind of my look..."
  "Oh nah, totally, I didn't know hey. I'll just go home and change. 'T's all cool."
  "Appreciated, bro. That bandolier looks cute on you, by the way."
  "Uh yeah thanks. You doing CTF tomorrow?"

[/small]

So say what you will about the developers excluding women from the lineup, at least they break down some masculine stereotypes.

 

[Treblaine]

*snip*

Allow me to clarify:

Splash Damage SHOULD HAVE done more to allow for female representation from the START.

I hope you didn't think I am proposing some 11th hour drastic turn-around as I don't think anyone really believes that is possible, I just find it disappointing that a game would focus so much on customisation yet no accommodation for females. The complaints are coming NOW because it is NOW that the devs have revealed how deep the customisation is it just makes the lack of female options more blatant.

TF2 when it was launched had VERY distinct characters for each class, they were not customisable at all and even though hundreds of different hats have been released they don't really chance anything about their very strong and distinct persona. In this case a female character would be nice but it isn't expected as its clear the devs have a very distinct vision for the character roster.

But when SD say "you can customise your avatar a gazillion different ways" it is really glaring how in all those so many many options there is no female option.

It's the principal at matters, representation of women in multiplayer games in general is so seriously lacking and with such emphasis on the avatar this is becoming more glaring. We can still complain about something even if it can't be undone as maybe then the trend will not continue.

I stand by my statement that if they were going to only animate for one gender then WHY NOT go for an all female roster?

 

[Farseer Lolotea]

Lol, you're assuming female gamers make up 50% of the gaming base? Not even close. Why do you think they don't get as much attention from developers? Because firstly, nobody knows what the hell they want from their games, and secondly, they're a very small minority. They don't provide much revenue. These are just the facts of it.

...what.

No, women are not a "very small minority" among gamers. Not half, true; but the number is on the rise, and has been for some time now. (20%, hell. That figure hasn't been accurate in years.)

Nobody knows what the hell female gamers want? Developers could easily find out. Of course, some revolutionary new strategy, such as actually asking female gamers for their opinions and taking recurring topics into account, would be required. So would tossing aside the old and outdated notion that "girls don't play video games." But I'm sure the devs could manage. (Trion did a decent job with Rift, after all. This medium needs more Asha Cataris and Dacia Ultans, full stop.)

(And really: how would having included female characters have resulted in losing part of their male audience, as you seem to be implying? That makes no sense.)

I dunno you kind of stumble across many females IN wow and other rpgs just through regular play, but in FPS you'll be lucky to find one in hours of play. It just seems like a less popular genre to the fairer sex, they no doubt play it, just less than other genres. (or it at least seems very much that way)

Some women deliberately avoid advertising it online. Especially among the shooter crowd.

 

[StrangerQ]

Some women deliberately avoid advertising it online. Especially among the shooter crowd.

EDIT: trying to get video to work
EDIT: Ah there now working

 

[Farseer Lolotea]

edit:trying to link video in moment
[video]youtube=AQnIJ-ljctk[/video]

XBox Girls? Yeah, seen those. There are at least two, IIRC.

 

[Treblaine]

Okay, you continually spelled a single word wrong and it is really irritating. It is spelled Customization. With a Z. Not an S. Just wanted to point that out first.

Now - when I was writing my posts, there weren't just pointed at you but at the general public. And I never, NEVER suggested that the game be turned around. It is actually the opposite. I said that there is nothing anyone could do. We can battle semantics all damn day about how they SHOULD have handled the approach of customization. However - it is over. It is done with. Why continue going on a dead subject? Try and show the company that you love their game and try to make a change for the sequel.

Do you know why Rep of women is so small in MP games? It is because - as I have seen - many of you who want them, only ***** when the game is in its last leg of development or right before release. Now I will bold this to clarify even more:

IF YOU WANT TO CHANGE IT, SHOW THE DEVELOPERS THAT YOU LOVE THERE GAME. IF THE GAME IS WELL RECEIVED TRY AND SHOW THEM WHAT THEY CAN DO TO IMPROVE THE SEQUEL. IN THIS CASE: FEMALES.

And the last statement of yours is... This one statement has... dumbfounded me.

News flash: UK and US spelling are subtly different.

Customisation is the correct spelling in the UK, just like AluminIUM is the correct spelling in the UK and since I am both British and live in the UK I use UK spelling. I suggest you:
(1) educate yourself
(2) learn to be more tolerant.
(3) don't nit pick (considering you mix up "there" and "their" so often)

"(you) only ***** when the game is in its last leg of development"
Hey, it's only in the last leg of development that they actually reveal all the features of the game so how could we object before this time? In fact there was complaints as soon as they revealed dropping female representation for deeper male customisation, it's just it's come up again. Also it is disrespectful and trollish to equate the opposing argument as "bitching".


You said: "And I never, NEVER suggested that the game be turned around."
after you said: "(it) would take another 4 to 5 MONTHS to build all the females you keep whining about and put them in the game"

I can't agree with your logic of "just buy the game and hope it's fixed in sequel" for two main reasons:
(1) the appeal of customisation has flawed appeal assuming only interest in males, so diminished appeal to buy the game in first place (gameplay still very appealing)
(2) buying the game sends a message of approval for the lack of females in customisation is acceptable so no real incentive to change it.

Brink IS on my wishlist but I'm only going to pick it up if it goes on sale.

I'm just so disappointed that they thought it was more important to have 102 quadrillion varieties of male characters rather than ANY varieties of female characters. That's sexism, plain and simple.

 

[Hristo Tzonkov]

Any game that offers even the most basic of character customization options, but does not include the option to select your gender, is immediately ignored by me. That's why I have not and will not play the Gothic series.

Dude Gothic has next to no customisation.And considering the game was from a small (then) german studio and they wanted fully voiced dialogues it was a lot better choice to just have 1 leading character.He didn't even have a name for crying out loud.Which is what made it charming.Gothic 1 and 2 are amongst the best RPGs despite all that.I'm not even mentioning 3 and 4 as titles.Risen was the real cultural successor.

For the threadLC with females in 2-3 months or...wait what Bethesda?Modding tools!Incoming 9001 mods for female skins with even more customisation.

 

[loodmoney]

Spoiler: snip

The issue here I see, is the game touts extensive customisation as a selling point, that you can make the character you want. Well guess what, not representing half the population of planet earth isn't off to a great start. They said adding female characters would mean less customisation in other areas. So? Limited customisation with female models is far better than none at all, since female models are pretty distinct from males for bloody obvious reasons. The trend here is ignoring female players, as if women aren't important enough to cater for in the most basic way. For the male players, they make sure you have that hairstyle just right or some wrist band, which is much more important than giving anything to the female populace apparently.

^This poster critical hits the nail on the fucking head.

Im slightly stunned at the number of people who dont see the issue of "Ultra customisable game, the player can be/look like anything they want....uh except a woman because um...."

At best its false advertising, at worst its just fucking insulting to about %50 of your potentiol customer base.

Lol, you're assuming female gamers make up 50% of the gaming base? Not even close. Why do you think they don't get as much attention from developers? Because firstly, nobody knows what the hell they want from their games, and secondly, they're a very small minority. They don't provide much revenue. These are just the facts of it. God knows it would probably be a stretch to claim that female gamers even make up 20% of the total gaming population, and with any shooter you would be incredibly lucky to pull in even half of them. So, if you consider that not including female playable characters is likely to only drive off half of that half (at most), you're only losing 5% of your total market focus. It's better than worrying about the ifs and the buts of losing part of the male audience.

Simply put: this is an issue with capitalism as much as anything. Game developers are not obligated to appeal to every demographic, and they're very aware of where most of their money comes from. So ladies, if you want equal treatment in games, you need to be an equal part of the gaming populace. Money carries more weight in terms of your opinions than words ever could. Start recruiting your friends, because I for one would love to see more female interest in gaming.

Developers make games for men-->men buy games-->men make up largest part of market-->developers aim for largest part of market-->developers make games for men-->....&c.

I.e. this isn't a one-sided thing. You want women to get into games, but the games are all chasing the manly manly men market? Not going to happen: (1)These games aren't made to appeal to a female audience, so the female audience isn't necessarily going to find it that enjoyable. (2) That's not how economics works. If developers don't change, how are they going to react to girls buying their games? "Hey, did you know that chicks are buying Macho Fighters III?" "Great! Let's make Macho Fighters IV so they can buy that too!"

Developers need to put some work in as well if the market is to react: "Hey, did you know that company X sold 40% of their last FPS to girls?" "Wait, is this that game that treats women in a half-decent manner? Like recognising their existence? Holy shit we gotta start doing that in Macho Fighters VI!"

Which is exactly why this is so wrong:

IF YOU WANT TO CHANGE IT, SHOW THE DEVELOPERS THAT YOU LOVE THERE GAME. IF THE GAME IS WELL RECEIVED TRY AND SHOW THEM WHAT THEY CAN DO TO IMPROVE THE SEQUEL. IN THIS CASE: FEMALES.

You can't just throw money at a company that does the same old shit and expect them to change a damn thing.

Also:

Because firstly, nobody knows what the hell they want from their games

Did I miss the part where video game development was a late-90's sitcom?

 

[Treblaine]

I do like how you put words in Placeholder's mouth. He was talking generally and you made it sound like he was talking directly to you!

Well he WAS replying to my posts, so quite reasonably he was addressing me.

Placeholder said 'bitching', which is what many of the opposing side is doing. Many of you are not actually bring up interesting arguments, more or less you continually are saying that YOU want female models because YOU deserve them. And by Jove, if you can't get what you want you will continually *****. The (Urban Slang) definition of ***** is: A Complaint. Are you complaining? Yes. You are. Thusly - you are bitching - Hell everyone who goes into a forum argrument (Including myself) could be considered bitching. While it is not very... decent of a word, it suits the point just fine.

Read the forum rules and think about them. Placeholder is being derogatory and aggressive to give his argument more weight at the cost of lowering the tone of these forums.


Also I can only state my own opinion, I will not speak for others and just allow my voice to be heard with everyone elses. But you have singled me out (ignoring everyone else who object the same way) and effectively made it out that I am just going "me me me!".

His second point, if you even read it, the words before and after it, and the post in general was that if they WERE, not that they should, but if they WERE to change the game - it would take a rough estimate of 4 to 5 months of development to animate, design, model etc for female models. He never suggested it be turned around right this instant.

He vociferously claimed he never suggested it. Then I proved that he did. Next!

His logic is very sound. The point he made was: Buy the game. It will show interest in the game itself increasing the possiblity the game would recieve a sequel, you even said yourself that you thought the gameplay was very appealing. If the game does receive a sequel - Send them mail/messages showing that you bought the game, and would love that the sequel would recieve female models. Create petitions, etc. Money means a lot to any company. It shows them the game was well recieved. However boycotting the game JUST because it doesn't have a female model will hurt the compnay itself and in turn, they may not create a sequel. Nothing can be changed about not adding female models at this point - future sequels can be changed. Show your interest and they 'may' create a better game because of them.

Well I'm not boycotting the game, never said I was nor did I call for one. I DID SAY EXPLICITLY that I plan to get it but only when cheap enough. Reason for not buying at full launch price include what I perceive as a flawed character customisation suite which isn't just the main distinguishing features of the game to stand out from the other FPS games.

I'm not particularly interested in a boys dress-up mini game even if expertly integrated with good FPS gameplay.

Also, petitions? mail them letters? You do realise how utterly futile such gestures like those are? You can count the success rate on your hands and count the failures with the grains of sand on a beach.

However, bad for you Placeholder. Don't mess with someone's spelling errors.

I am a little worried however that this further simplification of someone else's explanation will just get blammed into submission and my words be taken out of context.

Fellow forum members, the entire quotes are there in full. I'm fair in my response, but you may not like what I reveal to you, jsut don't shoot the messenger.

Also you have done a pretty poor job or reading my posts and taking mine out of context. You implied I was part of some boycott of this game, what hyperbole nonsense.

 

[Paularius]

Any game that offers even the most basic of character customization options, but does not include the option to select your gender, is immediately ignored by me. That's why I have not and will not play the Gothic series.

While i agree with what your saying about customization i just gotta point out that the Gothic series had no character customization at all. You could customize your skills and pick how you want to play with swords or magic but each game has a preset character model you cant change in the slightest. Be like saying you refuse to play witcher becouse you couldnt change his hair colour.

 

[Aris Khandr]

While i agree with what your saying about customization i just gotta point out that the Gothic series had no character customization at all. You could customize your skills and pick how you want to play with swords or magic but each game has a preset character model you cant change in the slightest. Be like saying you refuse to play witcher becouse you couldnt change his hair colour.

And I just have to point out that I made that comment on page one, and we're on page sixteen now. You don't think that, just maybe, someone else has already corrected that oversight?

Any game that offers even the most basic of character customization options, but does not include the option to select your gender, is immediately ignored by me. That's why I have not and will not play the Gothic series.

sorry, but that seems like kind of a bad reason to completely skip out on what might be a great game.

First, when a friend was trying to talk me up on Gothic, she hammered the point home about the lack of gender options, but made it seem like you could customize everything else. Knowing differently, I may check it out in the future.

I am not against the idea of playing a male character if that's the only character in the game. But once you start letting people customize, there is simply no good reason not to allow me to play my own gender. And yes, I will boycott games that violate that principle, because that's the only way that game makers will see that there are girls who play, and we do not appreciate being an afterthought when it comes to character customization.

 

[AtheistConservative]

Two words: Body Types.

There are three body types. Light, medium, and heavy. If you've seen the game, you know that light bodies are lean and muscular, medium types look like bodybuilders, and heavies are freakishly huge. If women were to be in the game, they would be relegated to light body types; not only would medium and heavy sized women be impossible, but they would also be grotesque. So any females playing the game would compelled to play as a woman, which would limit them to playing the role of a light character, no matter the actual combat role that they would have the most fun playing. Therefore, its just better to bite the bullet and play as a male character.

Bolded the part that's bullshit. Why can't there be massive, muscular women? Why can't women wear large armor? Why is it that heavy women can't be freakishly huge? We have female body builders in real life. Every female character doesn't need to conform to the default "slim, sexy" apperance.

If you want one of the selling points to be customization then why leave one gender out? It's lazy developing and a cop out excuse.

I might be completely wrong on this but, do an image search of professional female bodybuilders and then see how many people want their character to look like that, my guess is that regardless of whether the person you're showing this to is male or female, that their answer would be no. Pro female bodybuilders would only be the medium build, let alone what "heavy" would look like.

 

[AtheistConservative]

A question to everyone who feels that Brink is lazy: are games lazy for not having voice actors with different accents for each included language? In most games the voice actors are American which considering there are 6.2 billion people who aren't American, compared to 3.25 billion females, is this also discriminatory/lazy?

No matter how hard a team works they will always have to leave people out, i.e. most games do not allow you to be gay/bisexual, mixed ethnicity, or to be older than mid 20's.

 

[Sun Flash]

As a female who will be playing this game when it comes out;

Eh. We've had 16 pages of discussion. Is it really that big of a deal? Especially for an FPS.