Buffy and the After-School Special

Ashoten

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I gonna be a wet blanket here and say that the "after school specials" are more annoying then anything. A good writer will work their ideals into the story without making it a point to shove it in your face. Do you think lord of the rings was really about a golden ring that needed to be thrown into a volcano? A good chunk of the story is focused on tolerance and acceptance. Look at the relationship between Legolas and Gimlee. Two people that grew up under completly different circumstances(one in a tree and one in a mountain) and look nothing alike. At the council of Elrond they wanted to kill each other but by the end of the story they were best friends. A great moral lesson that's woven into the whole narrative of the story and was very entertaining.
 
Aug 25, 2009
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Blaming Pete's issues on his chemical. Like other people blame their issues in a relationship on a chemical. Usually the chemical alcohol, or various other drugs. Beauty and the Beast (as I saw it) is two metaphors wrapped up in one, which most people couldn't seem to separate, going so far as to say 'but it was all his chemical which made it happen.' Well maybe it was, but did anyone try and think of an analogy for the chemical? How about instead of just saying the girl was in an abusive relationship, we say she was in an abusive relationship with an alcoholic, who was apologetic when he wasn't drunk, but beat her horribly when he was. Which is exactly what the episode showed. Sorry to rain on the article, but there's a deeper layer which wasn't addressed.

I found the magic as drugs storyline interesting for several reasons. When I first saw it I thought it was overwrought, angsty, and spat in the face of magic having been established as the secret culture of lesbianism. Then I had a drug problem, got through it and saw that it was actually closer to life than I had anticipated.

But that still doesn't stop it from spitting in the show's established 'magic as lesbianism' thing for Willow. In the end it came dangerously close to making it look like love and lesbianism would make you utterly insane. It can be watched, but you have to mentally separate it from the way they've shown magic before.
 

CitySquirrel

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Apparently it is Tara, not Terra. How did I miss that? Anyway...

Soylent Dave said:
Yes, someone leaving and someone being killed are a wee bit different. Willow does go all magic addicted after Tara leaves her - but Tara leaves her because of the magic, so... swings and roundabouts I guess.
You are confused. Willow tried to stop using magic when Tara left her. Tara only came back because Willow demonstrated that she understood she had a problem with magic. She magic addiction can't both have been the reason Tara left and the result of Tara leaving. Unless the Buffy time line was some sort of Möbius strip where cause is also effect.

Soylent Dave said:
The writers didn't explicitly show Willow and Tara 'being gay'; in place of the physical affection you'd normally see in a teenage relationship (even in an American TV show), they tended to perform magic spells together.
Did we watch the same show? Did you watch some heavily censored version? Sure, they never had on screen sex (though it was implied), but no one else was on a WB network show either. And yeah... they didn't have the crazy make outs that some of the other characters did and if you want to talk about the double standard in society with what is acceptable for gays / acceptable for straight people, then I would be happy to do that. But they did kiss on screen, so that instantly invalidates the argument that they "didn't explicitly show Willow and Tara 'being gay'" (whatever that is supposed to look like). And it was done in a way that didn't make it a spectacle, which was amazingly non exploitative. In fact, they shared a lot of intimate moments and gestures (and a bed) and it was all done in very tasteful ways. Because, remember, had they shown Willow and Tara being crazy they would have been accused of exploiting lesbianism for cheap ratings. If you somehow missed it during the show, go look on youtube and see the plethora of tribute videos of them filled with "explicitly being gay". Or something.
 

Littaly

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I'm right in the middle of watching Season 6, and boooy do I hate the whole drug abuse metaphor. It's so ridiculously thinly veiled I have a hard time taking it seriously, it almost feels like I'm watching an episode of Seventh Heaven.

The worst part is how clumsy it is when compared to everything else. They've treated magic as (more or less) metaphor-less magic for five seasons and suddenly it's crack? There's so many ways they could have made that storyline work, hell, I was buying it up to the point where they went to the crack house, at that point it just derailed.

It's kind of weird, I've pretty much accepted all the other more or less odd moves the show has pulled (including rectoning in a sister), but this one I just find ridiculous.
 

Therumancer

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Almost every episode of "Buffy The Vampire Slayer" involves Metaphor for young angst and social issues. When you get down to it, it's one of the more preachy shows out there (and I'm a massive fan of it, despite not always agreeing with the underlying message).

Early on there was a bit of comparison to earlier shows like "Parker Lewis Can't Lose", as Parker Lewis revolved around a surrealistic concept where all of the stereotypes and issues of growing up were exagerrated into something akin to a super-hero drama, as everyone wound up having some kind of special powers (handled deadpan as part of the humor) connected to the role they occupied. When things went wrong, Parker Lewis and his buddies of course had to step in to set things right with their own ridiculously exagerrated capabilities. This show is incidently one of the big reasons why I give "Scott Pilgrim" a lot less credit than other people do, I feel Parker Lewis, while not a major success, managed to cover a lot of the same ground, in a pretty similar way. "Buffy" took this concept in a somewhat less trippy direction, with a fairly serious (if extremely campy) narritive bringing the issues to life in the form of monsters, supernatural occurances, and similar things.

I'll also be honest in saying that Joss Whedon was able to do some interesting table turning through the series as well, where there was a degree of justice involved in a lot of the storylines, even if it played havoc with the central message. A good example of this would be the "invisible girl" episode where a girl who is ignored by her schoolmates and looked down on litrally becomes invisible, and in this wretched state begins to seek revenge. Treated as a straightforward monster, you'd think the central issue of the responsibility owned by those who caused this was being overlooked... until the twist at the end where she's being trained along with other invisible kids as a goverment agent, with the dark note that there was probably going to be a reckoning. Sadly this episode was never followed up on, I was expecting this to be used during the whole "Initiative" thing, but it never was. Don't even get me started on the teenage sexual awakening and the werewolf metaphor that we had going on here as well. :p
 

Therumancer

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Littaly said:
I'm right in the middle of watching Season 6, and boooy do I hate the whole drug abuse metaphor. It's so ridiculously thinly veiled I have a hard time taking it seriously, it almost feels like I'm watching an episode of Seventh Heaven.

The worst part is how clumsy it is when compared to everything else. They've treated magic as (more or less) metaphor-less magic for five seasons and suddenly it's crack? There's so many ways they could have made that storyline work, hell, I was buying it up to the point where they went to the crack house, at that point it just derailed.

It's kind of weird, I've pretty much accepted all the other more or less odd moves the show has pulled (including rectoning in a sister), but this one I just find ridiculous.
I was going to cover this in my other message in this thread, but I will say that I think this one is being read into a bit inappropriatly here. I think it was less of a metaphor for drug abuse than world building.

You'll notice that in the "Buffyverse" The Slayer is supposed to be a very special thing given that she has super powers that enables her to fight and kill monsters. The entire show revolves around the "OMG, it's the Slayer" logic. You'll notice that pretty much every spellcaster that they run into during the series is either minor league overall, or evil incarnate. This raised the question pretty early on about if Willow could use magic without any real penelties, why more people weren't using it directly in the same way (Telekinesis and such) to fight monsters. If this was the case and you could have good-aligned AD&D-type spellcasters running around, why would anyone need The Slayer?

The answer to this was hinted at for a while actually. We knew Giles was known as "Ripper" and was apparently pretty good at magic when you got down to it, but he gave up on it due to what it was doing to him. We saw one of his old buddies early on who kept doing magic who basically became pure evil. Willow's potential was supposed to be world-class, and you'll notice that there were demons actually trying to recruit her before the entire addiction thing and the whole "we're going to get you anyway" thing was definatly implicit. You also had Anya who was a witch, who wound up being recruited exactly the same way demons were trying to recruit Willow.

The end result is that magic in that universe is supposed to be pretty Lovecraftian, that is to say that no matter how noble your intentions in using it, it will always corrupt you. The good guys who use magic try and avoid doing so, and are very specific in how they go about it.

Oh and

Oh and since you haven't gotten this far yet, there is a magical duel at the end of Season 6 between Giles and Willow. Giles pretty much being temporarly invested with the entire coven of magic that the Watcher Council has access to, and given very special authorization to use it physically. He winds up losing though due to trying to save her, and also from pulling his punches because there are certain things he apparently won't do. This sort of explains the concept a bit (it's been a while), this kind of thing is out there, but the good guys won't use it except in very specific situations. Giles also takes Willow away to train after this. Incidently she gets into a position where she can and will use minor magic occasionally, but winds up taking on an attitude (largely due to fear) much more similar to the other good magic practitioners in that universe.

The point here being that while there is a bit of a drug addiction metaphor, I don't think it's quite that bad. Honestly I also think it's stretching because the entie way this is done is very similar to how you have the "taint of chaos" in the various Warhammer universes, and of course the way magic inevitably destroys/corrupts anyone who tries to use it in Lovecraft's mythos which was arguably the inspiration for Warhammer's take on the subject.

I honestly think that the whole "with benevolent mages, why do we need a slayer?" motif has as much to do with the extent to which it was taken as well, though the corruption was implied for a very long time even if nobody spelled it out.

Pretty typical fantasy-horror take on things basically.
 

kotorfan04

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Also a bit unrelated but I am pretty sure when Willow thought Oz was cheating on her she attempted to do some magic that would seriously mess him up. Finally since Willow had two big relationships through-out the course of the show (Lets ignore Kennedy) wouldn't it be more accurate to say she was bisexual, not gay?
 

Robyrt

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Littaly said:
I'm right in the middle of watching Season 6, and boooy do I hate the whole drug abuse metaphor. It's so ridiculously thinly veiled I have a hard time taking it seriously, it almost feels like I'm watching an episode of Seventh Heaven.

The worst part is how clumsy it is when compared to everything else. They've treated magic as (more or less) metaphor-less magic for five seasons and suddenly it's crack? There's so many ways they could have made that storyline work, hell, I was buying it up to the point where they went to the crack house, at that point it just derailed.

It's kind of weird, I've pretty much accepted all the other more or less odd moves the show has pulled (including rectoning in a sister), but this one I just find ridiculous.
So true! Let me explain why Buffy season 6 is so awkward:

1. Villains are replaced by comic relief, and our heroes essentially get themselves in trouble for 20 episodes. This means the characters hanging out at home is not a safe narrative space anymore for side plots, because they are all talking about the main plot. The secret identity conceit is abandoned, so there is no safe narrative space outside the home either.

2. To create Whedon-style tension in #1, the characters need to make awful life decisions and be mean to each other on a regular basis. This is easy for Buffy, but Willow had already been established as ultra-competent, well-adjusted and super-powered, so they had to shoehorn in something that could make her act out of character (drug addiction).

3. Whedon tends to up the dramatic stakes on a character development moment by making it last longer and consume more episodes. (The same thing happened in the same year to Angel season 3.) So a plot point that would normally be resolved in 45 minutes, like Willow getting addicted to "magic", is expanded to fill an entire story arc so that it will feel more important.

4. As you mentioned, these big moments break established continuity rules. Magic is like electricity, except for this one storyline. Vampires are soulless and therefore evil, except for this one storyline. Death can be cured by a Phoenix Down, except when it's Aeris.

5. Because the narrative has nowhere else to go, the "off" notes from #4 are constantly being pushed in your face. Compare to, say, Season 7, which has plenty of face-palm moments but is juggling a lot of storyline balls and supporting characters who are ready to pick up the slack when you feel like sending Buffy to her room without any supper.
 

Littaly

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Therumancer said:
Littaly said:
I was going to cover this in my other message in this thread, but I will say that I think this one is being read into a bit inappropriatly here. I think it was less of a metaphor for drug abuse than world building.

...

The point here being that while there is a bit of a drug addiction metaphor, I don't think it's quite that bad. Honestly I also think it's stretching because the entie way this is done is very similar to how you have the "taint of chaos" in the various Warhammer universes, and of course the way magic inevitably destroys/corrupts anyone who tries to use it in Lovecraft's mythos which was arguably the inspiration for Warhammer's take on the subject.

I honestly think that the whole "with benevolent mages, why do we need a slayer?" motif has as much to do with the extent to which it was taken as well, though the corruption was implied for a very long time even if nobody spelled it out.

Pretty typical fantasy-horror take on things basically.
I skipped the spoiler tagged part, just to be safe ^^

Anyway, I both agree with you and disagree. I really dig the whole idea that Willow is about to get in over her head with forces she can't handle, that was a really good direction to take her character in. I also totally see why it was necessary, if everyone can practice magic, there's no point for a slayer. The whole "magic corrupts" theme is great too, what I have an issue with is the way it was handled.

Initially they played it as if she was getting too reliant on magic, with her friends getting concerned. I though that part worked wonderfully, how it seemed kind of harmless and then became worse and worse, culminating with the mind wipe accident. It also ties so well into her character, she has a hard time stopping because her whole confidence is built around her being a terrific witch, not only has it given her respect among her friends, but she's gained respect for herself as well. Maybe that last part is just me reading too much into it, but nevertheless, that was all great.

But after that it takes a sharp turn in how it handles magic and why it's dangerous. Suddenly the point is not that she's relying too much on something she may not be able to handle, instead magic is now a freaky energy kick that gets you high as a tree and leaves you wanting more. This is where it lost me, to me it felt like they changed the rules so suddenly and so drastically the metaphor became painfully obvious. It turned from being a good storyline to what seemed like a cheap "Hey kids! Stay away from drugs!", complete with the friend who keeps pushing her to "Try some of this" ("see kids, this is where she should have said 'NO' and walked away...")

I kind of agree that the "Taint of Chaos" vibe had been established earlier, but that was not the direction they were going in at the beginning of season 6. They ramped up that angle so much after episode 7 it all came off as very silly. Had they gone with it more from the beginning I probably would have been fine with it ^^

Anyway, sorry if I seem like I'm overreacting about this. I literally watched that episode for the first time 4 days ago, so I'm still kind of fired up about it ^^
 

4173

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I think "Beer Bad" has to be the worst of Buffy's occasional tendency towards after-school specialness.
 

Therumancer

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Littaly said:
[
I kind of agree that the "Taint of Chaos" vibe had been established earlier, but that was not the direction they were going in at the beginning of season 6. They ramped up that angle so much after episode 7 it all came off as very silly. Had they gone with it more from the beginning I probably would have been fine with it ^^

Anyway, sorry if I seem like I'm overreacting about this. I literally watched that episode for the first time 4 days ago, so I'm still kind of fired up about it ^^
Well consider that at the end of Season 5 Willow decided to rather carelessly draw enough raw power to try and go toe to toe with a god. She lost, but wound up actually doing some damage.

The idea seems to be that the more magic you use, the more corrupting it becomes. This is one of the reasons why Giles apparently doesn't go "Ripper" to solve problems even under extentuating circumstances, even though it's strongly implied even before borrowing a bunch of power that he has some rather nasty magical powers if he ever decided to use them. His old buddy was able to curse the whole town on Halloween, and he's actually scared of Giles in a direct confrontation. He does a ritual to seal something here or there, but mostly plays coach for Buffy to bounce her foot off heads. He kills a monster, maybe two, then next thing you know he's the monster, especially with all the power he used before, he knows this apparently and would rather die than see that happen (even if it means Buffy dying too).

It's been a while but it seemed to me that even for the beginning of season 6 Willow was going overboard, and yeah she pretty much collapsed all at once, but that's the way it happens. Besides it was implied there were things going on off camera with that, you were just seeing it from the perspective of the other characters for the most part to make it
more dramatic.

I mean, I can see where your coming from, but I don't think it was that much of an "after school special" thing, especially seeing as the entire message could be taken not as "don't do drugs" but "do drugs responsibly". She went overboard so is in danger just using magic, but that's because of the binges. You'll notice she does get to the point where she uses magic occasionally again, and there are other sorcerors who do a bit here and there like Giles that aren't bad guys.

After School Specials don't say "Don't Do Drugs... well okay a bit of weed here and there is okay, and so is the occasional line of coke before sex, or maybe some ectasy once in a while"

Think about that. :p
 

Malkavian

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Littaly said:
Initially they played it as if she was getting too reliant on magic, with her friends getting concerned. I though that part worked wonderfully, how it seemed kind of harmless and then became worse and worse, culminating with the mind wipe accident. It also ties so well into her character, she has a hard time stopping because her whole confidence is built around her being a terrific witch, not only has it given her respect among her friends, but she's gained respect for herself as well. Maybe that last part is just me reading too much into it, but nevertheless, that was all great.

But after that it takes a sharp turn in how it handles magic and why it's dangerous. Suddenly the point is not that she's relying too much on something she may not be able to handle, instead magic is now a freaky energy kick that gets you high as a tree and leaves you wanting more. This is where it lost me, to me it felt like they changed the rules so suddenly and so drastically the metaphor became painfully obvious. It turned from being a good storyline to what seemed like a cheap "Hey kids! Stay away from drugs!", complete with the friend who keeps pushing her to "Try some of this" ("see kids, this is where she should have said 'NO' and walked away...")

I kind of agree that the "Taint of Chaos" vibe had been established earlier, but that was not the direction they were going in at the beginning of season 6. They ramped up that angle so much after episode 7 it all came off as very silly. Had they gone with it more from the beginning I probably would have been fine with it ^^

Anyway, sorry if I seem like I'm overreacting about this. I literally watched that episode for the first time 4 days ago, so I'm still kind of fired up about it ^^
Before I get started, let me just say that it is a looong time since I watched season 6. I am, however, rewatching the entire series atm, currently in season 5, so some of what I am about to say may be entirely "wrong" in regards to season 6, as I operate from very vague memories of season 6, but sharp memories of everything up to it. Anyways...
Wasnt the "magic is a high" pretty much implied numerous times throughout the series? I dont think you are supposed to take it too litteral, as if magic, in itself, makes you high, but instead it is the psychological rush of power. The excitement about what you are able to do, not what what you are able to do does to you. I hope I adequately express what I mean.
Ever since Willow got started, it is very apparent that she is incredibly excited about her witchcraft. She even practices most of it in secret, and when the scooby gang is exposed to the fact she is a witch, it is always treated by caution from Giles, who keeps telling her she is messing with powerful stuff. Indeed, Giles himself has a past that speaks of magic being destructive/corrupting to the user. In one episode he uses the specific words "an incredible high." I don't think you should necesarily see it as magic in itself being corruptive, in a magic way, but rather that the fault is humans being flawed: When we get power, we get addicted to it, whether it is magical, political, cultural... whatever. It changes us, because success and power feels great, exhillerating, and letting it go is not fun. And that, I don't think goes against what is established in the early seasons. In fact, I think it's the fullfilment of everything that is vaguely hinted at from the beginning. Plus, it is understandable. If you could change reality at a whim... wouldnt you always be dangerously close to doing something amoral? I dont know if you are a comics kind of guy, but look at what the Scarlet Witch did...

Meh, I think I got lost in there, I am quite tired. But I hope it made sense, and I hope it isnt entirely worthless because I dont remember season 6 so well.
 

Forktongue

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Ahh Buffy, I loved this show. A friend of mine turned me onto this series a few years back during her internship. She was tasked with watching episodes of several different tv shows and marking down whenever something in that show reinforced or broke hegemony. Buffy had far more instances of breaking hegemony than any other show she had to watch.

Now excuse me, I need to add a few things to Netflix...
 

Canid117

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4173 said:
I think "Beer Bad" has to be the worst of Buffy's occasional tendency towards after-school specialness.
You mean the "If you drink beer at all you will turn into a fucking caveman and burn down a building" episode? Yeah maybe a better message is "Be careful and learn to control your drinking" Joss.
 

xdom125x

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kotorfan04 said:
Finally since Willow had two big relationships through-out the course of the show (Lets ignore Kennedy) wouldn't it be more accurate to say she was bisexual, not gay?
This is one of those things that people have mixed reactions for. I think that she was bisexual because she had attraction to 2 people of different sexes, while others think she was 'in the closet' while with Oz, while another group think she "turned gay" after Oz left. I think she just tried to avoid showing attraction to guys because she was still a little bitter at guys because of Oz.
 

Soylent Dave

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CitySquirrel said:
You are confused.
I was basically agreeing with your point there.

Soylent Dave said:
The writers didn't explicitly show Willow and Tara 'being gay'; in place of the physical affection you'd normally see in a teenage relationship (even in an American TV show), they tended to perform magic spells together.
Did we watch the same show? Did you watch some heavily censored version? Sure, they never had on screen sex (though it was implied), but no one else was on a WB network show either. And yeah... they didn't have the crazy make outs that some of the other characters did and if you want to talk about the double standard in society with what is acceptable for gays / acceptable for straight people, then I would be happy to do that. But they did kiss on screen, [snip] share a bed [snip]
They did those things eventually. The characters initially didn't display any physical affection, and even as the writers (directors?) got more comfortable with showing physicality within the relationship, it was still a bit neutered.

If you watch the start of their relationship - and for quite a long way into it - you can see where they've used magic as a euphemism for their getting closer physically and emotionally.

It's quite a long time before we see Willow and Tara share a bed - and when we do it's understood that this isn't their first time doing so; the characters are relaxed. There've been some 'closed door' scenes in earlier episodes, and so forth.

I wouldn't expect - or want - to see anything explicit, but they are clearly tiptoeing around scenes they were comfortable showing when it's a heterosexual relationship.

I'll re-emphasise - the use of magic as a replacement for these 'intimacy building' scenes is something they only do early on in their relationship. The writers then change (revert, actually, as others have pointed out with reference to Giles and Ethan being corrupted by magic) to their concept of Magic as Drugs.

The problem as I see it comes because they used both metaphors, within a relatively short space of time, with the same characters - so it comes across as a bit clumsy.

Although it's quite clumsily done anyway, as I said, having your gay character become otherwise evil or degenerate (in this case drug addiction and murder) is an appeal to morality - especially when other gay characters in the series are similarly degenerate (Vampire Willow, later Andrew (sort of)) or at best victims (Tara in most episodes where she had an actual role).

(there are other bits of the series where it turns into an old-fashioned morality play - Buffy gets punished for having extra-marital sex (or perhaps just for losing her virginity), for example - but the magic = drugs bit is probably the clumsiest one)
 

CitySquirrel

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Soylent Dave said:
See when you say "I wouldn't expect - or want - to see anything explicit, but they are clearly tiptoeing around scenes they were comfortable showing when it's a heterosexual relationship." I will totally agree to this. And, once again, talk about double standards. If you read up on the history of lesbianism on tv, you might see why the networks had to be real cautious there. Although, looking back on it it seems like very few characters started their relation ships with lots of physical affection...Xander and Ayna are the exception, and the whole point of that was how unconventional she was.

But your argument doesn't make sense, especially if you have ever heard Joss Whedon talk about what he was trying to do. He was trying to subvert tropes, not play them up. Also, again I don't agree that even early in their relationship the magic was used in place of their intimacy. And even if it was, in order for your pattern to hold Willow should have given up lesbianism after she had her magic rehab and gone back to men. But she didn't.

I also want to address your interpretation of the situation with Angel. You could look at it as a punishment for having sex. Or you could look at it as "sex changes the relationship" or "people can change after sex" or "sex can have negative consequences"... the last being less a morality play than an after school special. In fact, the creator specifically stated he was going for something like that (I believe). We do all bring our own context into a text, and obviously this includes me, but I think there is a strong argument for Buffy subverting many traditional archetypes, not reinforcing them.
 

Actual

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The point of this show was that they were young characters most of them getting into relationships for the first time, they understandably introduced the physical elements slowly.

With Willow/Tera they knew they had a gay couple they'd built up a relationshop for, now they had to decide how to show that without being exploitative, and they did it wonderfully, with some of the most natural interactions I've seen on any show.

I think the magic was never a metaphor for their relationship it was a pre=text for Tera to spend time with Willow, as she was never confident relying on her own charm alone.

Hell, even the Spike Buffy relationship, which was mostly about sex, they tap-danced around their feelings for aggggeeeessss.
 

Soylent Dave

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CitySquirrel said:
once again, talk about double standards
Yeah, the double standard is part of the problem.

But, while Joss (& co) may have wanted to subvert some stereotypes - and they definitely did - they did reinforce some others. I think the fact that they had previous avoided and subverted a few tropes is what is so disappointing (for me) when they play the "gays are broken" one straight.

For want of a better phrase.

It's an untidy metaphor because it's two metaphors - in the first place magic is a metaphor for their relationship (and it doesn't matter that it's magic; in older media (with heterosexual teens) it would have been sport, or reading or something). In the second instance magic is used as a metaphor for drug addiction.

This creates an unfortunate association - the same activity is deliberately connected as two separate metaphors, one of which is very dark; does that mean the intent is for both activities to be dark? Probably not - but the connection is there. It's clumsy - that's pretty much my point, there (I'm not trying to ram my point home and sticking my fingers in my ears (la la la), I just wasn't sure I'd made it clearly enough - I think that's as clear as I'm going to get now, though...)

If you don't agree that at one point magic was metaphorical lesbianism (and I can see why you & several other people don't), then you're obviously not going to see anything of the sort.

(As a side point, there's no way they could have had Willow go back to men; the writers would have been lynched..!)

I also want to address your interpretation of the situation with Angel. You could look at it as a punishment for having sex. Or you could look at it as "sex changes the relationship" or "people can change after sex" or "sex can have negative consequences"... the last being less a morality play than an after school special.
You can definitely make a case for all of those - and they can even co-exist. It's the severity of Buffy's 'punishment' which makes me think most of the 'virgins prosper' horror trope.

As you said, it's one interpretation amongst many.

I think there is a strong argument for Buffy subverting many traditional archetypes, not reinforcing them.
In a lot of cases (most obvious being the title character), across the whole series, very much so.

I'll also add that I don't necessarily think clichés always need to be subverted - they generally exist because they're useful storytelling tools. It's just some of the old fashioned stereotypey ones that are best forgotten about or replaced.
 

kotorfan04

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xdom125x said:
kotorfan04 said:
Finally since Willow had two big relationships through-out the course of the show (Lets ignore Kennedy) wouldn't it be more accurate to say she was bisexual, not gay?
This is one of those things that people have mixed reactions for. I think that she was bisexual because she had attraction to 2 people of different sexes, while others think she was 'in the closet' while with Oz, while another group think she "turned gay" after Oz left. I think she just tried to avoid showing attraction to guys because she was still a little bitter at guys because of Oz.
I guess I just like thinking she is bisexual so I can pretend I have a shot with a non-existant character... Don't judge me.

OT: Also I think Season 6 of Buffy is when Joss Whedon completely snapped and decided to just start making fanboys cry. I am going to have a tough time plowing through that season knowing all the horrible things that happen in it.