Burning the Quran in Norway, Sweden - Racism and Islamophobia Rampant in Europe

Houseman

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The guy told the cops he couldn't speak Spanish while trying to get out of being charged as his excuse.
Nice of him to just stand there while he heard her cries for help, stick around while you went down and rescued her, and then waited until the cops showed up to question everybody, and not leave at any point during all of that. Nice of the cops to let you overhear their conversation, too. I'm sure there's a good explanation for all of this.

Oh, and I did a little research into Texas law, and I couldn't find any sort of "duty to rescue" law.
There is a "stop and render aid" law, but that only applies to car-related things, like accidents, not children in ditches.
There are child endangerment laws, but that only applies to children that are yours or are within your care.
And of course, there are "good Samaritan" laws, but those don't compel you to act, they only protect you if you do act.

So maybe those cops just didn't know their own law and falsely arrested him.
Maybe there is a law, and I wasn't able to find it.
Or maybe your story is made up.
 

dreng3

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If you live in Sweden you can get around with just English no problem, the same applies to Norway and Finland. In fact, several people I've met who moved here from English speaking countries have expressed their frustration with never getting to practice talking Swedish, because as soon as Swedes hear you speaking English we switch over to doing it to and many jump at the chance to practice their English. So yeah, it sort of is useless if you already know English, aside from the fringe benefits of being able to eavesdrop on people.
I cannot possibly tell you how many books on educational theory and the studies of religion are only available in the original languages. I had to fight may way through several books and a huge number of articles in swedish and norwegian just so I could get my degree.

The thing is that scientific works in spanish or hindi or those other languages you mentioned will usually be translated, if for no other reason then because there is most likely someone with the time and inclination to do so. Not so in smaller countries.
There is also something to be said in favour of cultural engagement and being able to read between the lines. I am generally of the opinion that as long as a translation is done well enough it can replace the original, but many translations are not.

It also helps put people at ease when you can engage in their own language, so there are plenty of benefits, ties between culture and language notwithstanding.
 
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Silvanus

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My point is that this is a valid form of protest. And considering that it gets both results and attention, it's an effective form of protest. I don't think those criticizing a religion are somehow obligated to play nice.
I didn't say they were. But book-burning isn't really criticism; it makes no argument or point beyond saying that people shouldn't be able to read it. And the outcome-- an atmosphere of hostility towards specific demographics of people-- is not one that's conducive to freedom of expression.
 
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Hawki

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I am proposing amending the fighting words doctrine. Yes, I understand what it would take. We JUST have to get all the racist out of congress. Problem solved. The US goes through cycles of this, we just have to wait for the next one.. Maybe the racist will do enough damage this time to nail their own coffin shut.
You're a bit more optimistic than me.

I've seen a similar 'cycle' argument, that the US racism issue comes and goes in spats. In the 1860s, there was the Civil War. In the 1960s, there was the Civil Rights movement. In the 2010s/20s, there's Black Lives Matter and everything else. That's obviously a gross simplification of history, but that aside, "getting the racists out of Congress" seems too simple a solution. The Republican Party's gone off the deep end, but since we're living in Crazy World, that doesn't seem to be an issue for a lot of people. After Trump won the 2016 election (something I didn't think could have been possible), I'm not overly confident that he can't win this one either.

And even if Biden wins, what then? The issues don't go away. I mean, I'm living on the other side of the world, so I can observe things from a reasonably safe distance, but, well, not too long ago we saw how dysfunction and partisan politics in Lebanon led to disaster. With wealth inequality and partisanship, the US seems to be going the same way. And while I'm sure some in the country would want to see it collapse, well, the collapse of empires generally isn't pretty. :(
 
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Agema

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I won't disagree that what the crusaders ended up doing was wrong on many accounts due to the ambitions of those leading the crusaders (and that's without taking into account the atrocities commited by the crusaders). But it wouldn't change the fact it was initially started to defend Christian land from Islamic agressors and at the same time take the holy city back which was initially invaded and conquered by Muslims.

But in my opinion this is all quite irrelevant because holding the crusades against Christians in a "Islam vs Christianity" discussion is beyond absurd due to the point made in the second sentence of the quoted part. You simply can't hold religious conquests against people while at the same time believing a conqueror is your prophet.
The crusades started because the Byzantine Emperor Alexios Komnenos, having finally stabilised his tottering empire, needed troops to retake lost territory in Anatolia. He appealed to the Pope to help him get some mercenaries from the west, dangling the prospect of recovering Jerusalem for Christendom as a possibility because merely retaking Anatolia wasn't much of a draw. The Byzantines had no interest in Jerusalem. They hadn't owned it for over 400 years and didn't view it as theirs anymore: they had the opportunity to recover it in the 10the century after crushing the Arabs in Syria, and not done so because holding it would have been more trouble to them than it was worth. Antioch was the limit of Byzantine aspirations, which is why the next emperor John Komnenos made very sure to slap the Duke of Antioch into submitting to his rule, but didn't trouble the other crusader states.

The Pope (to the horror of the Byzantine Emperor) then hijacked the idea and made an announcement that recovering Jerusalem was the primary aim, and by making it a supposed mission of God made the crusaders independent of the Byzantine Emperor's authority. As a result, although the crusaders piled through Anatolia and allowed the Byzantines to get a foothold back there, they then parted ways as the crusaders rampaged on to the Holy Land and left the Byzantines to try to recover their Anatolian territories on their own.

But a grim reality is that the crusades were not a particularly religious excursion, at least in the minds of many of the leaders. It was an opportunity for nobles to secure a ton of loot, a great reputation, and if they successfully conquered anywhere, their own feudal domain (many being second- or third- sons who were not going to inherit dad's title).
 
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Thaluikhain

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But a grim reality is that the crusades were not a particularly religious excursion, at least in the minds of many of the leaders. It was an opportunity for nobles to secure a ton of loot, a great reputation, and if they successfully conquered anywhere, their own feudal domain (many being second- or third- sons who were not going to inherit dad's title).
Not to mention, when they did get all religious, a lot of it was about murdering Jews before they got there. Why walk all the way to Jerusalem to fight members of some religion you don't care about when there's Jews to murder next door?
 
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Terminal Blue

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Wow, I thought we were kind of done with this one, but okay.

Most countries in Europe (and the Americas, for that matter) do allow for the limitation of free expression on the basis of offence to religious feelings, and the way these laws are actually applied is very unfair, because in practice such laws are typically framed around preventing breaches of the peace. What counts as a breach of the peace is, of course, determined by the standards of the majority, or what will cause offence to enough people to pose a threat of social disorder, which in a country with a majority religion results in that group being favoured. Heck, this same issue has gone to EU courts several times, and the consistent ruling has always been in favour of majority religious sensibilities. Muslims, and other minority religions in European countries, are actually far less protected from religious offence than Christians.

What's actually at stake here is less some unique sensitivity on the part of Muslims, and more the inability to understand how sacredness works within particular religious traditions.

Protestantism, in particular, is traditionally iconoclastic. There's a very strong religious taboo against worshipping or even venerating objectss, because this is seen as elevating those objects to a status that can only be occupied by God. For Protestants, burning the bible only matters because it is a symbolic insult to the Christian faith, not because the Bible itself is is a significant object. People from Protestant countries, including those who are not religious, tend to take this Protestant iconoclasm as a standard for "reasonable" religious behaviour. Thus, the assumption is that if Muslims are upset by the burning of the Quran, it's because they're unable to accept an attack on the symbols of their faith. In most religions, however, certain objects are not just symbols, they are the objects of veneration. Idols in Hinduism and Buddhism, for example, are not symbols of the Hindu and Buddhist faith, they are ceremonial objects. The Torah used in Jewish observances is written on a scroll by scribes who are trained to perfectly replicate every single marking, because it's not just a book. The object itself is important.

And yet we never have a discussion about whether Hindus, Buddhists or Jews (or Catholics for that matter) can exist in a secular society. We don't burn Buddhist icons or Torah scrolls, probably because that would be immediately interpreted as an act of religious iconoclasm. It would, itself, violate the secular contract. If we saw someone burning Torah scrolls, we wouldn't think they were striking a blow for freedom of religious expression, we'd immediately understand that they were motivated by a kind of Christian chauvanism, or worse racial anti-semitism. We'd understand that they'd violated a kind of secular peace treaty which enables us all to live together despite our very different beliefs.

During the War on Terror, you could kind of get away with this kind of Islamophobia by arguing that Muslims were unusually dangerous and fanatical, and then pointing to Islamist terrorist attacks. However, with the majority of terrorist attacks and political violence in general now carried out by right wing extremists, that excuse doesn't even fly on a conceptual level. The people burning Qurans are the ones who are most likely to end up killing people. You can't claim to be striking a blow against dangerous fanaticism if you are the dangerous fanatic
 
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Houseman

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I didn't say they were. But book-burning isn't really criticism; it makes no argument or point beyond saying that people shouldn't be able to read it. And the outcome-- an atmosphere of hostility towards specific demographics of people-- is not one that's conducive to freedom of expression.

Just for the record, the post you quoted was attributed to me by mistake, presumably due to some kind of forum glitch. I never said that.
 

lil devils x

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You're a bit more optimistic than me.

I've seen a similar 'cycle' argument, that the US racism issue comes and goes in spats. In the 1860s, there was the Civil War. In the 1960s, there was the Civil Rights movement. In the 2010s/20s, there's Black Lives Matter and everything else. That's obviously a gross simplification of history, but that aside, "getting the racists out of Congress" seems too simple a solution. The Republican Party's gone off the deep end, but since we're living in Crazy World, that doesn't seem to be an issue for a lot of people. After Trump won the 2016 election (something I didn't think could have been possible), I'm not overly confident that he can't win this one either.

And even if Biden wins, what then? The issues don't go away. I mean, I'm living on the other side of the world, so I can observe things from a reasonably safe distance, but, well, not too long ago we saw how dysfunction and partisan politics in Lebanon led to disaster. With wealth inequality and partisanship, the US seems to be going the same way. And while I'm sure some in the country would want to see it collapse, well, the collapse of empires generally isn't pretty.:(
I mean yea, for us it does sorta feels like the tensions leading up to WW2. Massive disinformation campaigns by the far right, the far right seizing power in multiple nations, mass racism, economic collapse, despair for the poor, Nations shifting from one end to the other, escalations to the extreme.. It does give one reason for little hope. But I also wonder if that is not how it felt living during the civil rights movement as well. I don't know, but what I do know is that some day, whether it is sooner or later, that people will always see it for what it is and come out on the other side of it eventually. Of course I hope for sooner rather than later, but I am optimistic they will eventually wake up and see what is really happening here one way or another.

I knew Trump was going to win in 2016. I ranted about it on here and people thought I was just worried for nothing. I also told them that Trump would fire anyone who got in his way when they told me that we would have people who wouldn't let him do what I said he would and that " he wouldn't really do those things" then he comes to office and does what I thought he would and so much worse and fires everyone that tried to stop him and now we are here. If he wins this time, he will do more damage than will be repaired in our lifetimes. Sure, things will improve after he is gone, but the price that will paid for letting him do what he wants this time will still be being paid by our children and grandchildren for generations to come and they will not forgive us for this. We will have set ourselves back to an unrecoverable point for a very long time and be leaving it up to others that come after us to solve.

I do not think some really truly grasp what is at risk this election. The entire idea that " people are overreacting to what trump does or will do" is what will screw the people over because of the lasting impact that his actions are having and will have. This time around, he is directly going after all programs for the poor, all safety nets and removing the ability for the people to survive at all. If they are too impoverished to fight back and dead, they are no longer a threat to the wealthy. Trump views the poor, progressives and anyone who did not support him as the enemy combatant that he must destroy at all costs so that he and his family can keep their wealth and gain more and will stop at nothing until that happens. He has already made this clear. His own white house staff has been telling us this and the " shock and awe" he is promising for his second term is completely aimed at accomplishing these goals. People need to fully understand what is at stake here, because I don not think they do. No president in our history has ever been this willing to harm and this cruel to average US citizens. Trump doesn't see it as him having anything to lose at all by destroying the lower and middle class because he isn't running for office again and all he cares about is his own pile of wealth accumulation and instead views the middle class and poor as the obstacle he has to destroy to make his pile bigger. If the people don't understand this and do everything they can to stop it , it will be horrific, there will still be no revolution coming to save them and people will just die instead or be crushed by the powers that be. People didn't rise up and overcome the great depression, they suffered miserably and died. WW2 pulled them out, not the people fighting back.

People complain about how the baby boomers screwed us. Letting Trump win this time around WILL be screwing those that follow us MUCH worse than they did. Even with that though I am hopeful that people will one day wake up and hopefully get something done eventually.

Sorry, I wanted to be only optimistic, but reality is it could happen sooner or it could happen later, and we can hope for sooner, but also we have to be realistically prepared for what is going to happen if sooner does not come.
 

Silvanus

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Just for the record, the post you quoted was attributed to me by mistake, presumably due to some kind of forum glitch. I never said that.
Oh yes, right you are. I've gone back and edited it, my bad.
 

McElroy

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If you live in Sweden you can get around with just English no problem, the same applies to Norway and Finland. In fact, several people I've met who moved here from English speaking countries have expressed their frustration with never getting to practice talking Swedish, because as soon as Swedes hear you speaking English we switch over to doing it to and many jump at the chance to practice their English. So yeah, it sort of is useless if you already know English, aside from the fringe benefits of being able to eavesdrop on people.
When I visit I just pretend I don't know English (and pretend I'm from Helsingfors). This autumn's Stockholm trip has been corona'd, btw. Also the troll could be a Finn -- most people here have a basic knowledge of Swedish but haven't used it in a naturlig setting.
 

Iron

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That's a well executed bait, Iron. Congrats.
Thanks, I'm practicing it now.
I'm surprised nobody responded to this in particular which was basically the Arab Party saying "If you don't like it then you can just leave lol" to Swedes that disagree with them.
Why are the Nordic countries so racist and islamophobic?

Recently Arab Party in Sweden bravely stand up to Racism and Islamophobia in Sweden. If you are racist and don't accept diversity you can cancel your Swedish citizenship and leave the country.
View attachment 695
BTW you should have said "G8 B8 M8"
 
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CM156

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I'm surprised that alt right guys aren't burning the Torah as well.
I don't recall any Jewish group ever shooting up a newspaper because people made fun of Moses. That might be why.

But book-burning isn't really criticism; it makes no argument or point beyond saying that people shouldn't be able to read it
Consider it a form of deplatforming for an author who died over a thousand years ago.
 

Shadyside

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Alt right guys are dangerously close to radical Islam. Both groups of people want traditional gender roles, kill degenerates, hierarchy, and a mono culture. The only real difference is that alt right doesn't have a holy book.
 

CM156

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No, it's this one.
I read The Turner Diaries as part of my undergrad degree. It's not a very good book.
Very poorly written. Hunter is even worse.
 
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