you mean just like you can't complain when your car stops running because you bought it used? or when someone can't complain because the most important page in a college text book was shit on because they bought it used? sales of used objects exist because they still have value after the original owner is done with them. the games industry aren't bitching because they aren't getting money, they're bitching because other people are getting money. it's like the whole gold farming complaint. it doesn't do anything to the developers, but they'll be damned if they see cash changing hands if its not their hands its going into.
Buy used? Can't complain.
- Thread starter xvbones
- Start date
Recommended Videos
The games publishing industry is being very immature lately. You say they have no reason to listen to me, I say I have no reason to pay extra. Both are true but developers often pay attention to feedback and since I've played the game and know what it's like I'm perfectly qualified to give it. Your argument also hinges on the fact that people complain about used games to the developers directly, not true in most cases. And besides, if I paid money for something I'm not satisfied with I have the right to complain about it.xvbones said:
I also take issue with the second part I quoted. The used games market is nothing compared to the market for used films and I won't even mention used cars, used hardware and all of that stuff. If the publishing industry has problems with their income you can't blame used game sales or piracy, the sales model for products like this has always been to make the vast majority of your profit in the first month before used game sales or piracy even start. After that it's a matter of choosing a £20 product over a £35 product, assuming the £35 product has no incentive to make me spend that extra money it's an obvious choice.
Put simply, in much the same way publishers and developers put their income before anything else I put my money before their concerns.
Isn't the fact that the game is even available pre-owned a testament to how good it is?
If someone buys a game, hates it, then sells it - does their opinion count for more, than the guy just trying to save a few bucks, maybe he needs to buy food as well. The developer already got paid for the game, the game is now in the hands of someone else - do the developers expect to be paid again, because the first owner thought the game was shit? (hine, the answer is fuck no). The industry has changed very little in 30 years - there have always been pre-owned games, games for hire, piracy, yet the industry is still going. They are using pre-owned games as an excuse to introduce new payment measures, like online mode licenses, DLC costs, and god only knows what's comming next.
Frankly I'm sick of the industry whine about pre-owned games, I'm sick of the whine about pirated games, I'm just sick of the god damn whining. What are we supposed to do? - put Gamestop out of business? - you think Gamestop or anywhere else would survive without the income from pre-owned games?. If game stores stop, then us consumers would suffer.
The industry right now is trying to make us pay more, as if we don't already pay too much... What the industry should learn is that if we get sick of them, we have options, we are the consumers and we hold all the cards. They should shut the hell up, or the money I'd use to buy my next game will go on waffles, and I'll download the damn torrent and get the same experience. I like to maintain a collection of games, my steam account is not a proper collection, collections go on a shelf - yet when you have steam, you have better piracy protection, version control, very low distribution costs, yet the prices are still too steep. For years the high cost of games were blamed on production costs, retail costs, and only a piddly little percentage made it back to the developers. Absolute bullshit - if that was the case, how come downloadable games aren't much cheaper!
I call bullshit on the whole industry, and I paid for my opinion by spending thousands on videogaming over the years, supporting an industry that does not appreciate us.
If someone buys a game, hates it, then sells it - does their opinion count for more, than the guy just trying to save a few bucks, maybe he needs to buy food as well. The developer already got paid for the game, the game is now in the hands of someone else - do the developers expect to be paid again, because the first owner thought the game was shit? (hine, the answer is fuck no). The industry has changed very little in 30 years - there have always been pre-owned games, games for hire, piracy, yet the industry is still going. They are using pre-owned games as an excuse to introduce new payment measures, like online mode licenses, DLC costs, and god only knows what's comming next.
Frankly I'm sick of the industry whine about pre-owned games, I'm sick of the whine about pirated games, I'm just sick of the god damn whining. What are we supposed to do? - put Gamestop out of business? - you think Gamestop or anywhere else would survive without the income from pre-owned games?. If game stores stop, then us consumers would suffer.
The industry right now is trying to make us pay more, as if we don't already pay too much... What the industry should learn is that if we get sick of them, we have options, we are the consumers and we hold all the cards. They should shut the hell up, or the money I'd use to buy my next game will go on waffles, and I'll download the damn torrent and get the same experience. I like to maintain a collection of games, my steam account is not a proper collection, collections go on a shelf - yet when you have steam, you have better piracy protection, version control, very low distribution costs, yet the prices are still too steep. For years the high cost of games were blamed on production costs, retail costs, and only a piddly little percentage made it back to the developers. Absolute bullshit - if that was the case, how come downloadable games aren't much cheaper!
I call bullshit on the whole industry, and I paid for my opinion by spending thousands on videogaming over the years, supporting an industry that does not appreciate us.
Actually shops buy the game from the publisher, who buys the game design from the developer. So by that logic, the only person who has any right to complain is the publisher?
When you buy a game pre-owned, you're really just paying the shop, which paid the original owner, who paid the shop, which paid the publisher, which paid the developer, so your opinion is apparently invalid.
When you buy a game new, you're really just paying the shop, which paid the publisher, which paid the developer, so surely your opinion on it is pretty much equally worthless... ?
Why does the number of steps along the line to getting the game to you have any effect on the worth of your opinion, exactly?
When you buy a game pre-owned, you're really just paying the shop, which paid the original owner, who paid the shop, which paid the publisher, which paid the developer, so your opinion is apparently invalid.
When you buy a game new, you're really just paying the shop, which paid the publisher, which paid the developer, so surely your opinion on it is pretty much equally worthless... ?
Why does the number of steps along the line to getting the game to you have any effect on the worth of your opinion, exactly?
What about libraries? Rental places? Why the fuck are games special when it comes to this argument?
And ignoring feedback on your product is just bad business sense.
And ignoring feedback on your product is just bad business sense.
When developers here complaints and criticisms about their product. They do not investigate whether the source of those details come from used or new game buyers.
From a developer standpoint, the comments made by used gamers hold as much weight and influence as those made by new game purchasers.
You may feel that this practice is closely tied to theft, but the fact is buying used is still helpful for the gaming industry. People who buy used (or rent for that matter) are more likely to try products they would never have played at full price. If they enjoy these experience they may eventually buy future releases new. This practice leads to new sales that otherwise wouldn't have existed. In this manor it benefits all parties.
Finally, if developers/publishers want more people to buy new. They simply need to place more pressures on selling their games at lower cost shortly after release. Release a game at $60 but drop the value in a shorter time frame than they do. Why keep it $60 for years before going to $30 or $20 when if you did so in a matter of 6 months you'd retain far more new purchases throughout the lifespan.
From a developer standpoint, the comments made by used gamers hold as much weight and influence as those made by new game purchasers.
You may feel that this practice is closely tied to theft, but the fact is buying used is still helpful for the gaming industry. People who buy used (or rent for that matter) are more likely to try products they would never have played at full price. If they enjoy these experience they may eventually buy future releases new. This practice leads to new sales that otherwise wouldn't have existed. In this manor it benefits all parties.
Finally, if developers/publishers want more people to buy new. They simply need to place more pressures on selling their games at lower cost shortly after release. Release a game at $60 but drop the value in a shorter time frame than they do. Why keep it $60 for years before going to $30 or $20 when if you did so in a matter of 6 months you'd retain far more new purchases throughout the lifespan.
You didn't buy our product directly, so now none of your observations, arguments and conclusions are valid, because we care more about our profit then reflecting on our playerbase and hearing potential improvements.
Also, Where do you think that extra profit goes that Gamestop or whatever makes on second hand games?
Eventually it will find it's way back to the developers.
The more profit a store makes the better it can; advertise, hold sales, open new locations, hire more staff, etc, and that improving the consumers way to buy video games and thus, investing in new titles.
Yes, some of it might go to the new car of the CEO but that's why he runs a store.
Also, Where do you think that extra profit goes that Gamestop or whatever makes on second hand games?
Eventually it will find it's way back to the developers.
The more profit a store makes the better it can; advertise, hold sales, open new locations, hire more staff, etc, and that improving the consumers way to buy video games and thus, investing in new titles.
Yes, some of it might go to the new car of the CEO but that's why he runs a store.
This thread has got trolls-ville stapled all over it, but I want my say to be frank.
I'm working a full-time unpaid placement at a small dev studio in the UK and honestly, I cant afford to buy new releases. Frequently I buy pre-owned games so that I can stay up-to-date with conversation and see what some of the triple-A studios are doing.
I don't think that this inhibits my ability to make constructive remarks about the games I play, in fact, I'd go as far to say that it makes me a bit more savvy in terms of what I'm prepared to buy new and the standard I can expect from different developers.
I've seen the level of work that goes into even smaller titles so I fell for developers whose games are not well received, but when it comes down to it, it's an object in the public domain, as open to criticism as films, music, literature, celebrity lifestyles and political exploits.
I'm working a full-time unpaid placement at a small dev studio in the UK and honestly, I cant afford to buy new releases. Frequently I buy pre-owned games so that I can stay up-to-date with conversation and see what some of the triple-A studios are doing.
I don't think that this inhibits my ability to make constructive remarks about the games I play, in fact, I'd go as far to say that it makes me a bit more savvy in terms of what I'm prepared to buy new and the standard I can expect from different developers.
I've seen the level of work that goes into even smaller titles so I fell for developers whose games are not well received, but when it comes down to it, it's an object in the public domain, as open to criticism as films, music, literature, celebrity lifestyles and political exploits.
And in the eyes of the barber, having long hair is theft. So what?xvbones said:
The entire line of "But developers don't get paid" is flawed; never in the history of anything has "not being paid" been a definition of theft.
I take it you are opposed to used book sales, also? Or does this magically only apply to games?
One final point: in discussions like this thread, it's common to look to what the industry says to judge what measures are "needed" to protect copyright, or sales, or whatever.
No. They are the ones with the vested interest. Just as you don't ask the barber if you need a haircut, you don't ask copyright holders if there needs to be more protection for copyright. Same in this case.
You sir, are absolutely correct. All those 'used car' lots you see around are just your mind playing tricks on you. They certainly don't encourage you to buy from them instead of the dealership!OutrageousEmu said:
You mention that it's rare to see a used/new mixed car lot in the USA, as if that somehow matters... does that mean if I buy my games used from a store that ONLY sells used games it's somehow different?
If you think that retailers are under some OBLIGATION to sell new items at all costs before directing them to the used stuff you have no clue about business. Gamestop do not try and sell preowned games because they hate the gaming industry and want it to die. They do it because it is the sale that is of the most profit to THEM, which is all they care about. It's also the only thing games publishers care about, same as every other business.
While I was at uni, I worked in a games store and we pushed people to get preowned over new as much as we could. Know why? If we didn't we would have gone broke. Do you know what the profit margin is on a brand new game for a retailer? A grand total of bugger all. Almost all the cash goes to the publishers, not the reatiler. Used games however have a good profit margin in them, so the business can thrive. This is the same reason warranties and other crap (known as 'addons') are constantly pushed on customers - these are where gamestop and other games stores actually make money. The new games sales are basically nothing.
So you can easliy argue that by refusing to buy new games you are directly hurting the retail industry! Oh no!
Finally here is a solution to this 'problem' the industry has you all convinced it has: if you make good games people will buy them new and never trade them in because they want to keep them FOREVER.
..
As someone who buys almost all their games brand new, I'm tempted to shift to preowned only as this idiotic argument is just getting annoying.
No, only the stupid and destined to fail companies wouldn't take good advice that comes from someone outside of their customer base.xvbones said:
Buying is indeed a show of faith but not all buyers have worthwhile advice to offer or logical demands to make, this is why things like Dragon Age 2 came out even though the original game's fans didn't want anything like that and they DID make that original game a huge hit so if you were right DA2 wouldn't exist.
Here's the core flaw of your argument; if only money is something that may make people notice your opinions, companies will always just go for the next, bigger pile of money which is NOT the actual people who purchased their stuff since they're already that much more likely to buy their new things too. No, if that's how the company acts it'll go for new and bigger audiences, it'll go and try and do things they think those new audiences would want until it reaches a state where they're making CoD money by not changing anything and most of them never will.
So, if we're going by your logic, to have an opinion matter you shouldn't actually give money to a company, you only have to show promise that you will if they do what you want. I don't need to tell you what's wrong with that I hope.
Wait, you rented a DVD and then used it to hold a showing where you charged?Phishfood said:
Is that legal? It could very easily not be unless there's something else you're not telling us.
Read what you just said. Really read it. A producer refusing to listen to feedback on their product would be the stupidest move imaginable.xvbones said:
The only thing I really want to comment on is that lost revenue is intangible. Unless you can prove to me that there is a 100% chance that 100% of the consumers who couldn't buy the game cheaper, as used, would buy the game brand new at full price, you can't really assert the amount of damage the apparent lack of royalties is dealing.
If you want to talk potential, how about the person who bought a game used likes the game, and buys the sequel, brand new, for full price? Wouldn't that be better than them not buying the game at all? The developers get more royalties that way.
Also, who are you to say that someone needs to buy the games for full price for developers to listen to them? Are you a developer? Have you talked to these developers? For all you or I know, the developers are just glad that people are just playing the game.
I guess I am not exempt from criticism, because I buy all my games from digital distribution now... Oh well, it means the developers will listen to me complaining.
If you want to talk potential, how about the person who bought a game used likes the game, and buys the sequel, brand new, for full price? Wouldn't that be better than them not buying the game at all? The developers get more royalties that way.
Also, who are you to say that someone needs to buy the games for full price for developers to listen to them? Are you a developer? Have you talked to these developers? For all you or I know, the developers are just glad that people are just playing the game.
I guess I am not exempt from criticism, because I buy all my games from digital distribution now... Oh well, it means the developers will listen to me complaining.