Can an american explain me their view on their military?

[Mid-Boss]

They're held in such status because they're seen as servants of the good of the nation, but it's a mixed bag same as anywhere else. It's mixed with good people putting in their prime years in the service of a government they believe in, mixed with the arrogant who want something to flaunt and the unfortunate who need a job and consider low to medium odds of death a decent trade off.

You hit the nail right on the head. Sadly, the percentage of those who fill the second category, the "arrogant who want something to flaunt" is disturbingly high. I was in line for the Thor movie a few weeks back when I over heard a conversation:

Douche 1 "Shit man I LOVE bein in the army. You tell a ***** you in the army and she just takes her pants off."

Douche 2 "Fuck yeah. I've gotten so much pussy I can't wash the stink off."

All pretense that these people are all heroes to be honored etc etc etc just died for me in that moment.

 

[StarCecil]

The reason you can't think of many examples is that mostly only animals that live in colonies or groups do this. Humans, in a broad sense, live in colonies. What sets us apart from other animals is that we are able to fight for an ideal, a cause, something more than just survival. Our behavior as a species is not any better than animals, because we still are animals. The military doesn't fight for themselves. They fight for whatever their country believes in, because they believe in their country. We don't breed soldiers. We breed people. Who step up and above the masses to fight for the country they love. No one said they enjoy killing.

They don't need to enjoy the killing for it to be wrong- a good man kills a good man, it doesn't matter if he enjoys it, it's still wrong and never should've happened- we don't breed soldiers, but we do kill humans that could've done good if they didn't get shot in the head or whatever.

I have a problem with this^ part. I'm not in the infantry so I don't get to see it first hand, but the people fighting our troops are by no means "good men". They aren't freedom fighters and most of them aren't even fighting for a cause. Maybe the top guys believe they are, maybe Osama believed he was, but the grunts, the guys doing the shootings and bombings, they're just a bunch of fucking criminals.

That's the way it works over there, really. In the early days a lot of the dudes in Afghanistan were Chechens or Serbians or Syrians or from some shit hole where they'd been fighting for a significant portion of their lives and joined up with the Taliban and Al Qaeda for money. They're mercenaries. They get paid with money gotten from the heroin Al Qaeda bakes out of the poppy fields in Afghanistan. That's where Afghanistan gets its cash; heroin.

And the warlords are the worst. They are the most fickle people imaginable. Afghanistan has no national identity, they're just a bunch of clans and tribes that hate each other for something that happened eons ago. They'll join up with the Taliban just because the tribe across the way joined up with the Coalition. It's that cheap to them. I even heard of one warlord being bought by the Americans with Viagra!

And then there's the Afghan soldiers! They sell their equipment to the warlords so they can get high, and then that stuff ends up in the hands of insurgents. And most of the insurgents are just farm boys that got paid a few bucks (a veritable fortune to them) to fire a few AK rounds at the Americans.

Iraq had it even worse, with the first insurgents being made of Saddam's tailor-made insurgent force. And then Al Qaeda moved in to fight the Americans and brought a ton of mercenaries and foreigners with them. Now, it's like the mob.

The Al Qaeda operatives go down and train foreign fighters to build IEDs and pay locals to plant them.

And the locals are just as bad as in Afghanistan. You'll get elders who will try to cooperate with Coalition forces to get security and running water and all that good stuff for their neighborhoods by outing insurgents... but only the ones that owe him money or that he doesn't like or that are really rival elders whose property he wants.

Half the Iraqis you can't trust and the other half will lie to you.

But, back to my original point, a Sergeant Major I knew told me a story about this insurgent dude from Syria who would plant these huge car bombs and set them off in crowded markets - the idea being to scare people away from supporting American troops. Well, one day he's setting up a car bomb that goes off prematurely. They find him smeared on the inside of his windshield. You ask me, or that Sergeant Major, and we'll both tell you that the world is much nicer place without him.

I think killing is an unfortunate necessity of life. It's never good to take a life, but that doesn't mean it's always bad.

 

[Halceon]

I think the reverence is way too much. Joining up doesn't magically transform people into saints who can do no wrong or machines without a mind of their own. They are just as capable of corruption, deception, malice as anyone else. They are also expected to do the right thing despite orders to the contrary, I thought we established that in Nuremberg already.

 

[StarCecil]

Except that most of that funding isn't used efficiently. We have prototype planes that cost billions of dollars to develop just sitting in warehouses across the country because after they were built the government decided that they weren't cost efficient to mass produce. The same goes with body armor, missiles, etc. I actually have some friends who work in the defense industry (Raytheon to be specific), and they tell me stories about how the government wastes money like you wouldn't believe. In many cases the defense contractors are making tons of money whether they produce anything worth while or not.

None of this is about saving more soldiers' lives, it's about defense contractors having very deep pockets and some very good lobbyists who give kickbacks to politicians to give more money to defense contractors so that the defense contractors can have even deeper pockets.

Each failed prototype is just a stepping stone to achievement. What about the projects that actually do work? If the sum of my taxes throughout my entire existence was effective enough to merely comfort a soldier in enemy territory for an entire day, then I'll feel like a hero. But that's just me.

That's the thing, none of the prototypes are failed, all of them work perfectly well, and they don't end up as stepping stones to ANYTHING. The government just ends up funding things it has no interest in actually using. They spend billions and billions funding R&D, billions more making the prototypes as perfect and efficient as possible, and then they say "you know, this has cost us an awful lot of money, lets start work on something else instead" when the project is just a couple of weeks away from finished.

My friends have actually had this happen to them a few times now and they always walk away completely and utterly pissed off, because everything they made works perfectly, and to the military's exact specifications, and the military is just throwing away good money by not using any of it.

The military's budget is a complete joke, it's so over-blotted that they spend money left and right on completely needless things. It's like the people who win the lottery, don't know what to do with the money, blow it all, and then end up just as poor as they were before, except that the military wins the lottery every single year.

There are a variety of reasons a project will be abandoned, even if it works. My favorite example is the F-22 Raptor. It's the world's greatest fighter plane. But it's designed from the ground up as an air superiority fighter (that means it fights other planes). Millions were spent on it, it's the greatest plane ever, but only 400 or so are getting built for the military because it was decided by Congress that a straight air superiority fighter wasn't necessary with the current state of conflict.

Another great story is the "laser plane". I don't remember it's real name but John Stewart called it that. It was a plane with a laser on its nose that could shoot down ICBMs. Those are nuclear missiles. The important part was that it could do so in the boost phase, which is currently lacking in our missile defense system. But Congress cut that too because it cost too much.

Other projects are canceled because the contractor can't deliver on its promises, like the Dragonfly helicopter that was supposed to go from rotor to fixed-wing flight. It could never do so successfully and was canceled. Other projects are canceled because another project meets their needs for quicker or cheaper or both. Sometimes Congress cuts the military's funds and they have to cancel. Congress controls the military's budget and can decide what they spend it on.

However, all these failed and canceled projects are absolutely necessary to come up with real, viable projects. That's how we get uniforms that conceal better, vehicles that can withstand IEDs, shirts that are more heat resistant and body armor that essentially make the user invincible.


ALSO, AND THIS IS IMPORTANT: The greater, greater majority of military's budget goes to paying troops. Every soldier, and there's more than a million of them, have to get paid on the first and fifteenth. It's literally the law.

 

[Kais86]

a. its Horrah, just a way to say sure,fine,good for you, etc.

Actually, it's different for every branch. Navy is Hooyah, Army is Hooah, Marines is Hoorah.

Also, there are a lot of Americans who don't like the military, the opinion is literally a case by case basis. The vast majority believe the propaganda. Having had first hand experience in the matter, I can safely say the vast majority really needs to think a little harder about it, because it's not all it's cracked up to be.

My opinion is this: it's an unfortunate necessity in the modern world, it also provides lots of jobs, which means it's needed more now than ever before, except during the World Wars. I don't believe it will ever go away, but I don't mind that, having trained fighters/emergency workers(because, let's face it, the U.S. military takes on as many, if not more, emergencies caused by nature than anything else, and this is the primary reason I truly appreciate them)is a very useful thing to have in case of any type of emergency of any sort.

 

[T5seconds]

As an American kid you are brought into school at a young age, taught your pledge of allegance, and you say it everyday. Most children are only taught what it means later on, and only really think about it much later in life. Yet since little John Doe over there has said it all his life, since he was told how awesome America was from the day he went into preschool, since he was told that we were "The Cradle of Democracy" He was conditioned to be a patriot. So its only natural that the service men that we were always told were protecting us and everyone else. We are conditioned to give high praise to service men. Plus, we do make fun of the military. It's almost always servicemen themselves though. Im the son of a serviceman, we make jokes all the time. Were just respectful about it.

 

[StarCecil]

...what's so desirable to join the armed forces?

Well, speaking for me and a lot of the other poolees I knew: The chance to be a Marine.

That's really it.

The Marines were the end-all, be-all for us. There's camaraderie, there's strength, honor, and the ability to become a person better than who you are. You learn to carry yourself with dignity, to respect others and to be apart of something much greater than yourself.

And, individually and in differing degrees, there's financial security, education, adventure, physical fitness, medical and educational benefits.

Let me tell you, man, there's nothing like standing on the parade ground, getting that EGA handed to you and seeing your friends and parents cheering you on.

More importantly, and not to insult the Danish military by any means, it's tough to even get in. The Marines have the toughest basic training outside of the Navy SEALs (and Boot Camp even borrows a few SEAL techniques) all designed to turn you from civilian to Marine. It's grueling, painful and oftentimes the worst experience any Marine has ever had in his life. Medical discharges are common. Not everyone can do it, and being able to do it is a sign of great strength (physical and mental) and determination.

 

[Troublesome Lagomorph]

I don't know, maybe it has something to do with them [generally] respecting people who voluntarily go to X country and get shot at so that they don't have to?
Also cause its tough. And they have badass equipment. And because they can easily beat the shit out of you in ways you didn't even think of.
Although it tends to just be respect for the soldiers themselves.

 

[Kolby Jack]

I won't offer my opinion on how military service-members should be treated seeing as how I am one, but I will say that as a "Navy Brat" who's dad retired about a month before I went to boot camp, the Navy has been a major part of my life since I was born. Granted, I really only signed up because I had just dropped out of college in a bad economy, but I do have a great amount of respect for soldiers, sailors, marines, and airmen alike. Growing up in that environment, I never really got to see the military through the eyes of a true civilian; to me, these guys were just people who happened to be in charge of/ work for my dad.

Sometimes people forget that people in the military are just that: people. They can make mistakes, they can get into trouble, and they can learn from their mistakes as well. Are they held to higher standard? I'd say so, but most of the guys I've worked with live up to and often times exceed that standard, so I'm pretty proud to work alongside them. Even though I'm not really a military kind of guy, all things considered. I hate waking up early. And exercising. But the uniforms are cool.

 

[Kurbz]

We thank them because the rest of us dont want to die. Other then that I only see them as an entity meant for protection that has been turned into an aggressive entity by politics. Basically, they are what we use to f*** up who we dont like.

 

[scar_47]

We have a volunteer army so every person in the armed forces signed up knowing that they may one day die protecting their country. I think a lot of it has to do with the US being founded on the principle of freedom the members of our armed forces spend their lives protecting that freedom, I can seein a country with cumpulsary military service it wouldn't be such a big deal but when its voluntary that's a big distinction. Especially now with 3 wars going on theres an almost certainty that one will be shipped over seas in all likely hood to possible combat area, that takes some guts to sign up for. Their our defenders if you don't respect that what do you respect.

 

[TheScientificIssole]

a. its Horrah, just a way to say sure,fine,good for you, etc, and we americans hold our military in the highest standard, aside from a few nutjobs aka Westboro Baptist Church.
We are thankful that they have risked their lives to keep us safe. We destroy anyone who says shit about the armed forces! They are war heroes each and every single one of them.

Even those nuts who killed a few farmers while looking for stuff to shoot? Sorry, I didn't mean it.

 

[chocolatekake]

I seem to be in the minority on this, so I find it pretty hard to find someone who agrees with me on the subject.

I do not really like the military, in any sense. Our American military or other countries'. I regretfully concede that, at this point, having at least a defensive military is a necessity. As the U.S. has spent too long kicking other countries in the back of the knees to not have some protection. But I don't really approve all that much of an offensive military. I think it's good to have support from other countries in a defensive capacity, but I don't think offensive tactics are necessarily the best way to accomplish those goals.

I don't particularly see soldiers or even "war heroes" as actual heroes, because it's not what I believe in. I'd say a true war hero is one who is attacked in their own country and responds appropriately and effectively. Not to say I don't have any respect for our troops. It's what they believe in and they're acting on their feelings and doing what they think is right, which I commend. It's just not something I agree with.

As for the defense of the military being that they protect our freedoms and that they "died to give you the freedom that you take for granted". I didn't ask them to and I never would ask them to. I appreciate the freedoms I have, but I don't really think militaristic actions are the way to go about business.

 

[Bloodysoldier]

shouldn't having morals actually NOT make us raise giant armies and kill each other?

Stopped reading here. Go walk down a dark alley with your purse and high morals but leave your gun behind.

*deep sigh* First, I don't carry a purse; second, I'm a black belt and can defend myself in a dark alley.

Third- that's exactly my point, humans don't have the morals they claim that makes them better than animals, like I said many posts ago.

I thought you were a pacifist? Now your saying you will commit an act of violence? Before you say 'I did not say', we shall do a flash back.

...Cool, I can argue both of these points at once! *Not* killing two brids with one stone because I don't physically harm other creatures, being both a pacifist...

your a liar and a cheat, truth cake! *pirate voice*
Arguing for the sake of arguing is all well in good, but when you make statements like these it makes what you say invalid and pointless.

Go to bed, your post have no worth.

OT: I hold the soldiers in the military with high respect but not the institution. Call me two faced but you can not deny the same feeling.

 

[StarCecil]

a. its Horrah, just a way to say sure,fine,good for you, etc, and we americans hold our military in the highest standard, aside from a few nutjobs aka Westboro Baptist Church.
We are thankful that they have risked their lives to keep us safe. We destroy anyone who says shit about the armed forces! They are war heroes each and every single one of them.

Even those nuts who killed a few farmers while looking for stuff to shoot? Sorry, I didn't mean it.

To quote one of the greatest Staff Sergeants I've ever met "Once a Marine, you're always a Marine, unless you do something to disgrace yourself or the Corps".

 

[DigitalAtlas]

>Assuming Americans have conformed opinions.

LOL.

Each group is different. I'm personally pro-military and am pro-war pending on the war. Am I pro-Iraq? Nope. Pro-Afghanistan? Oh yeah.

I swear I saw the Westboro Baptists mentioned and..... Just laugh at them. They think the internet was created for them to spread their message as to how god hates fags.

 

[Nathan Christie]

propaganda

 

[TheScientificIssole]

a. its Horrah, just a way to say sure,fine,good for you, etc, and we americans hold our military in the highest standard, aside from a few nutjobs aka Westboro Baptist Church.
We are thankful that they have risked their lives to keep us safe. We destroy anyone who says shit about the armed forces! They are war heroes each and every single one of them.

Even those nuts who killed a few farmers while looking for stuff to shoot? Sorry, I didn't mean it.

To quote one of the greatest Staff Sergeants I've ever met "Once a Marine, you're always a Marine, unless you do something to disgrace yourself or the Corps".

So, you think the military is great because the terrible parts of it don't count to you?

 

[StarCecil]

a. its Horrah, just a way to say sure,fine,good for you, etc, and we americans hold our military in the highest standard, aside from a few nutjobs aka Westboro Baptist Church.
We are thankful that they have risked their lives to keep us safe. We destroy anyone who says shit about the armed forces! They are war heroes each and every single one of them.

Even those nuts who killed a few farmers while looking for stuff to shoot? Sorry, I didn't mean it.

To quote one of the greatest Staff Sergeants I've ever met "Once a Marine, you're always a Marine, unless you do something to disgrace yourself or the Corps".

So, you think the military is great because the terrible parts of it don't count to you?

That depends on what counts as a "terrible part". What those guys and the guys and Abu Ghraib did were clear violations of orders and the RoE and were probably even war crimes. They disgraced themselves and the institutions they stood for and besmirched the reputations of many fine individuals. They deserved to be thought of with disdain.

However, does killing a terrorist count as a "terrible part" to you? It doesn't to me or the Marine Corps.

 

[Rainforce]

They are war heroes each and every single one of them.

Even the ones who torture people at places like Abu Ghraib?

better: which war they haven't started?
Killing doesn't make you a hero, just a poor murderer.