Can Art Games and Fun Games coexist?

[Continuity]

I keep hearing on the Escapist about how gaming needs to change from an entertainment into an art form. But, at the same time I keep hearing from people on different sites that games need to be fun, first and foremost. Why is it we can't have both? Nobody seems to consider that Art-Games could become more prominent, and yet we could still keep the less mature, gameplay-focused part of the industry around.

So, my question is as follows: Do you think that Art-Based-Games and Gameplay-Based-Games could coexist?

Yes, and they do. Ok its hard to see the deeper games for the tidal wave of generic vomit that we've been subjected to over the last several years, but "fun" games have always coexisted with games that have more serious entertainment value.

Yes there should be room for games that are just unadulterated mindless fun, that is partly (partly mind!) what gaming is about so it needs to be there, but by the same token the has to be room for games that place depth, story, immersion, and emotional and intellectual challenge above "fun".

Edit: and just to be clear nobody is saying games should stop being entertainment. Art is not just something pretty that you look at. Pulp fiction is art, the shawshank redemption is art - these are supremely entertaining.. but what we've been getting in the gaming world is just the equivalent of cheap action movies like... I don't know what i don't watch that crap ^^

 

[More Fun To Compute]

But look at the past 30 or so years of game development...there have been fads yes...game developers have made money yes...but there is a clear trend upwards, an evolution...not just in graphics and gameplay but also in storytelling/ narrative. Games have acquired more meaning and are more expressive of ideas/ thoughts and emotions/ feelings than they were. This is only going to continue...and it should. This trend can't be explained away by fads and moneymaking.

If you are talking about some 30 year plan to advance narrative then why not compare games like Zork, Planetfall, Ultima and Wizardry to Longest Journey and Deus Ex. The idea that those more recent games somehow evolved from Pac-Man and Space Invaders is very odd. The only industry figure who has any long term plan to advance game narrative in that space of time is Chris Crawford who is not mainstream. Mel Croucher is also someone who tried to evolve games to be "proper art" and he just sort of gave up and left the industry.

Also, story telling has nothing to do with fads and money making? Have you ever followed the movie or book publishing industries?

 

[Halo Fanboy]

The popular conception of art games is simply a degenerate trend that really has failed to produce anything really good. While the question of whether art and good games can exist together is yes, I would say that art games becoming popular would be completely harmful.

 

[Trolldor]

A game is art when it makes an attempt to illicit and emotional response.

Whether it's 'good' art or bad is debatable, but Halo is 'art' in the same way that twilight is 'art' - really, really, really shit art.

 

[GiantRaven]

A game is art when it makes an attempt to illicit and emotional response.

Which is all games really, if you consider 'having fun' to be an emotional response.

 

[Ekonk]

They are coexisting AT THIS VERY MOMENT.

 

[Continuity]

The popular conception of art games is simply a degenerate trend that really has failed to produce anything really good. While the question of whether art and good games can exist together is yes, I would say that art games becoming popular would be completely harmful.

Ok I'll bite. please give me an example of what you consider to be an "art game"

 

[Halo Fanboy]

^ The Passage.

 

[Mr Pantomime]

-snip-

Ive never really got the whole idea of "art", of what is and what isnt art.

Take the Mona Lisa for example. People praise it as one of the best art works of all time. It looks terrible to me. Its just some woman. Whoop-de-fucking-do

Now this Scream painting, Ive always liked that. Its not only nice to look at, its interesting to dissect and examine.

Spoiler

This applies not only to still images, but audio, movies and books as well. I dont understand why some things are considered art and some arent.

So, to me

This can be art

Spoiler

But this cant

Spoiler

Why? Because thats how I interpret them. And fuck the Mona Lisa.

 

[Dense_Electric]

Art is there to be interpreted, video games are there to be played.

Your argument is inherently flawed - so if video games can't be art because they're there to be played, can films not be art because they're there to be watched? Can literature not be art because it's there to be read? Can music not be art because it's there to be listened to? Can a painting not be art because it' there to be viewed? What you're saying simply doesn't carry any weight.

That being said, of course not all games have to be some sort of high-art. Not all films are high-art, not all literature is high-art, not all music is high-art. Some are just there to entertain, some are there to be interpreted - but the best ones are there to be both. If all other media can be both, why not games? I don't know if this is your actual stance, but the way you've worded your argument makes it sound as if you think NO games should strive to be art and the medium should continue as one generic brown FPS or linear JRPG after another.

 

[Manji187]

But look at the past 30 or so years of game development...there have been fads yes...game developers have made money yes...but there is a clear trend upwards, an evolution...not just in graphics and gameplay but also in storytelling/ narrative. Games have acquired more meaning and are more expressive of ideas/ thoughts and emotions/ feelings than they were. This is only going to continue...and it should. This trend can't be explained away by fads and moneymaking.

The idea that those more recent games somehow evolved from Pac-Man and Space Invaders is very odd.

Also, story telling has nothing to do with fads and money making? Have you ever followed the movie or book publishing industries?

*Sigh*

Misinterpretation and misrepresentation.

I've called the upward trend an evolution. An evolution of the phenomenon videogaming AS A WHOLE. How you came to the conclusion that I must have implied (because I certainly didn't say it) that Deus Ex descends from Pac-Man is beyond me.

"can't be explained away by" does not equal "has nothing to do with"....not by a long shot. I'll say it again: yes....fads exist..as does moneymaking. But to hold that fads and moneymaking is ALL THERE IS to videogaming as a phenomenon that changes over time, showing an upward trend...is to seriously sell it short. It's a cynical view that does not do justice to the richness that is videogaming reality.

"Life is all about f*cking and consuming." Do you agree? See what I did there?

 

[Atmos Duality]

They can co-exist already.
It's just that few designers understand how to make the two cross.

 

[Burningsok]

They already do.

My god, what is going on here?! People seem to have this thought that art brings some sort of a high-chair, douchebag stigma with it. ART is used to create games. How can something that is created using art such as drawings and sounds not be art in the overall big picture.

 

[More Fun To Compute]

*Sigh*

Misinterpretation and misrepresentation.

I've called the upward trend an evolution. An evolution of the phenomenon videogaming AS A WHOLE. How you came to the conclusion that I must have implied (because I certainly didn't say it) that Deus Ex descends from Pac-Man is beyond me.

"can't be explained away by" does not equal "has nothing to do with"....not by a long shot. I'll say it again: yes....fads exist..as does moneymaking. But to hold that fads and moneymaking is ALL THERE IS to videogaming as a phenomenon that changes over time, showing an upward trend...is to seriously sell it short. It's a cynical view that does not do justice to the richness that is videogaming reality.

"Life is all about f*cking and consuming." Do you agree? See what I did there?

So you are asking me to see the big picture of video gaming as a whole which means what exactly? I'm still waiting for an explanation of why I should be looking at this big picture and seeing Pac-Man and The Longest Journey as the two most significant data points, where The Longest Journey is supposedly the superior achievement, and not two other games like Planetfall and Mass Effect.

Yes, I agree that fucking and consuming are major driving factors in life. Many people would say that the big picture of humanity going somewhere involves overpopulation and the destruction of natural resources. Just like the commercialism and fads of the games industry have helped it to grow and use new technologies.

 

[Daveman]

When is a painting "not art"? Similar rules apply if video games are art. Basically, either all games are art (admittedly some are bad art) or none are. BEWARE, THIS IS MY OPINION.

 

[No_Remainders]

snip

Sigh. Nobody seems to understand what I mean.

I'm not saying "Leave games as brown generic bore-fests". In no way at all am I endorsing poor quality games. I'm just wondering why people seem to feel the need to try to get games to be viewed by EVERYONE as art. I mean, why can't we just leave them as games?

I just feel it's pointless having games labelled as art, which does not equate to me saying "GAMES SHOULD BE SHIT!" like everyone seems to think it does.

 

[DarthFennec]

Sure, I mean there are artistic movies and nonartistic movies, so why not? But what I think the people here are saying is that, while not every game has to be deep and full of meaning, games as an industry should be generally considered to be artistic. Like, movies and books and paintings and all that are considered art from a general perspective, although quite a lot of them are most definitely not works of art individually. I think the game industry should become the same way.

 

[Woodsey]

You know, if we all rolled with the old-school interpretation of art (paintings and sculptures) we wouldn't feel the need to keep going over this sort of thing again and again.

Personally, I don't think books, films or games are art.

 

[Evilpigeon]

Disclaimer: I'm using call of duty as an example and exaggerating to try to make my point clearer, if you're going to reply please give me something to reply to apart from 'not all games are like CoD!' or 'the games industry is in a better state than you make out!' because I know this to be true.


I don't understand why some people seem to have something against games being used as art. Is there soemthing inherently wrong with an interactive experience that means you can't use it to communicate an idea, an emotion, political commentary? There's nothing wrong with games being just for fun but I think there is something wrong when you hold up, say Call of Duty as the best that gaming has to offer, just because it's popular and has great mechanics. I mean is that really all there is to this hobby? Is the best thing that we can offer to show the worth of gaming an exploitative, mindless fps? I mean if that's true then the pinnacle of gaming really is little more than an enjoyable, competitive killing simulator because that is all Call of Duty is. I read somewhere that the focus of an arcade style fps is to take 5 seconds and perfect it and then repeat it ad-infinitum. There's nothing wrong with that but it does seem like wasted potential when you could do something really great with the medium.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milgram_experiment

Read that

The Milgram experiment, whilst being highly controvertial and not a little cruel, revealed some disturbing things about how willing people in general are to simply obey anyone in a position of authority. However, by being aware of this instinct, you lessen its hold and I'd hope that it makes people more likely to questin why they do things and why they listen to people.

You could make a fantastic fps based around the concept of blind obediance to authority and its consequences and if you did correctly people could come away from the experience knowing a little more about themselves and that knowledge having a lasting, beneficial impact on their lives, I don't see how giving a message makes it any less fun or how it could in any way be considered a bad thing if more games did this (not all by any means, there's always room for mindless fun but it shouldn't be critically acclaimed to the extent that it is.)

I hope this hangs together, I accidentally clicked on a link halfway through writing this so i had to rewrite it all...

snip

Sigh. Nobody seems to understand what I mean.

I'm not saying "Leave games as brown generic bore-fests". In no way at all am I endorsing poor quality games. I'm just wondering why people seem to feel the need to try to get games to be viewed by EVERYONE as art. I mean, why can't we just leave them as games?

I just feel it's pointless having games labelled as art, which does not equate to me saying "GAMES SHOULD BE SHIT!" like everyone seems to think it does.

Because without general recognition that it can be so, people are less likely to aspire to create gaming art. It's the same reason the progress of science has sped up in recent centuries because more and more people have sat up and started to take notice.

"I mean what good is wandering around in the forest picking plants going to do? Oh, you found that if you crush certain flowers together you get a mixture that cures illnesses? Oh... Do you think there are more plants out there like this?"

Public recognition for the artistic value of games can only bring more talent which will lead to a higher quality of game.

 

[GiantRaven]

You could make a fantastic fps based around the concept of blind obediance to authority and its consequences and if you did correctly people could come away from the experience knowing a little more about themselves and that knowledge having a lasting, beneficial impact on their lives, I don't see how giving a message makes it any less fun or how it could in any way be considered a bad thing if more games did this (not all by any means, there's always room for mindless fun but it shouldn't be critically acclaimed to the extent that it is.)

You mean Bioshock?