Can bethesda make fallout 3 better than oblivion?
- Thread starter BBLIZZARD
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Why is everyone saying Oblivion sucks it was a great game. Good sales High scores (94 metacritic) don't see what the problem with it is.
I'll ignore the crutch of critic opinion and do a little comparison of a couple of areas of Fallout vs Oblivion.shatnershaman said:
Effect character build had on the game
Fallout - Immense, game play changed a lot depending on which skills you focused on (social, sneakery, combat, science, etc). The only really glaring problems were the tutorial level at the beginning of Fallout 2 and to a certain extent the end of the game which were combat-heavy.
Oblivion - little to none, set way through most if not all quests. Bethesda wants you to kill stuff to finish the quest? You killed stuff to finish the quest. Screw talking or sneaking/stealing. Stealth in Obvlivion was only just a step up from only being a way to get critical hits in combat. Social skills have been covered extensively elsewhere.
Effect quests had on the rest of the game
Fallout - Quite a lot. Small piddly little quests often changed the way you were treated elsewhere in the wasteland. For example deciding to help a group of slavers will land you in the crap for a bunch of other factions (this is a very crude example).
Oblivion - Sod all. Decided to join the Thieves Guild? Sure! And to boot the other guilds will still have you and treat you exactly the same way.
'Role' playing
Fallout - Progress was limited by experience so you had to think about what to specialise in, making you actually think about how to play the game, not just what place to go to next.
Oblivion - Leave your computer on while you go to work with something pressing on your movement key while sneaking grants you mastery of stealth through no fault of your own. Master of all trades at a stupidly low level? No problem! You don't even have to play the game, let alone make these decision things! Mastery of magic was similarly absurdly easy to achieve. Why even bother having skill levels?
Both games let you go pretty much anywhere you chose. Fallout took the more realistic path of actually killing you if you went somewhere stupid though. Oblivion (correctly?) went down the road of not expecting its players to avail themselves of common sense and so held their hand through level scaling. People, games have this 'save' function. If you're unlucky, or been dumb, or just want to see what happens, use the handy 'load' feature.
Now as to why I think Oblivion was a bad game, just mentally blank out all the Fallout points above and think about why something that brands itself an RPG does any of these things. Notice I haven't even mentioned any of the stuff about integration (or lack thereof) of the main quest line (and its immediate importance [cue laughter]) with the rest of the entire bloody world. Frankly that's been done to death elsewhere.
Anyhow, now I've gotten all this bile out, I'll go back to hoping like hell a miracle happens and that they don't screw up the game, like a lot of other fans of the originals.
Of course you didn't mention Oblivion is open world and has very good graphics (durr those are positives) or how much more stuff there is to do oblivion than Fallout (DLC to boot!)
...you didn't get all the way through my post, did you? If you did, maybe you should go back and look at the third last paragraph. In fact, it's short, I'll quote myself: "Both games let you go pretty much anywhere you chose."shatnershaman said:
As to graphics, I have some very nice photographs around the place. Are they fun to play? Not really. Graphics makes games look better, not play better.
As to stuff to do, I think it took me 3 or 4 complete plays through Fallout 2 before I felt I'd done everything because I'd missed things by overlooking them or because different situations could be handled in different ways (and led to different places). But even if Oblivion had a hundred times as many 'things to do' than both Fallout games combined (I say 'both' *gives Tactics and the XBox one I don't remember the name of the cold shoulder*), the fact that none of them really had any effect in a game-wide context means that they're so much fluff. It's like the difference between reading a novel and a collection of short stories.
Oblivion is a good game, just not a great Roleplaying game.
You all seem to be forgetting that Bethesda made Morrowind, try an tell me that Morrowind was not a great game.
If Bethesda make Fallout like they Morrowind then I will be happy.
You all seem to be forgetting that Bethesda made Morrowind, try an tell me that Morrowind was not a great game.
If Bethesda make Fallout like they Morrowind then I will be happy.
I can't wait for Fallout 3 myself. I'm pretty sure they can do better than Oblivion, and live up to the Fallout title. I understand all of your points about Oblivion, but all this raw hatred for a game that was more focused on combat than other things is really confusing.
Oh my gosh! This game doesn't even let me try to convince the goblins to be my friends! It sucks and I hate it and I hope the developers burn for eternity in their own waste products! ROAR!
I also don't see why people seem to hail Morrowind as one of the best RPGs ever. It suffered from most of the faults that Oblivion did. Want to be a master of every skill, do what zari said above! It was focused on combat, too! It didn't have level scaling, which is good, but that's one to three! Morrowind was also considerably slower. Not lag-slow, but just slow-moving. Nothing ever seemed to be happening that you could readily see. Oblivion was fairly fast-paced. The demons were attacking and it was very obvious, you know, the town being burnt and destroyed with little demons running amok!
Seriously, what's up with all the hate for an average game and all the love for another, very similar, average game?
Anyway... if they can make Fallout 3 better than Oblivion with dialogue and world-affecting quests and such, that's great. If they don't and they make it combat-oriented, that's fine, also, as long as the atmosphere is good (that's what I worry about most) and the fights are entertaining. Even if they do make it better, I still want good atmosphere.
Oh my gosh! This game doesn't even let me try to convince the goblins to be my friends! It sucks and I hate it and I hope the developers burn for eternity in their own waste products! ROAR!
I also don't see why people seem to hail Morrowind as one of the best RPGs ever. It suffered from most of the faults that Oblivion did. Want to be a master of every skill, do what zari said above! It was focused on combat, too! It didn't have level scaling, which is good, but that's one to three! Morrowind was also considerably slower. Not lag-slow, but just slow-moving. Nothing ever seemed to be happening that you could readily see. Oblivion was fairly fast-paced. The demons were attacking and it was very obvious, you know, the town being burnt and destroyed with little demons running amok!
Seriously, what's up with all the hate for an average game and all the love for another, very similar, average game?
Anyway... if they can make Fallout 3 better than Oblivion with dialogue and world-affecting quests and such, that's great. If they don't and they make it combat-oriented, that's fine, also, as long as the atmosphere is good (that's what I worry about most) and the fights are entertaining. Even if they do make it better, I still want good atmosphere.
Oh it's not raw hatred. I enjoyed Morrowind, I obviously enjoyed Oblivion enough to play it (I won't play a game just to justify the expense), I just feel a bit of despair when I see game companies pick up a franchise and turn it on its head. I look at Bethesda's previous games, I read their forums to see what they say they're doing, and I feel that's the way Fallout 3 is heading.
As to Morrowind > Oblivion, I was reading Fire Daemon's post above and thinking to myself "You know, I did really enjoy Morrowind, and moreso than Oblivion, but I can't justify why". I think part of it is the affection people tend to have for older games that pushed genre boundaries at the time like I feel Morrowind did by blending FPS and RPG elements. I'm at a loss to explain the rest, because as Mr[1] No-Vowels said a lot of the things I didn't like about Oblivion were there in Morrowind. Who knows, maybe it's just hype - people expected that after Morrowind they expected Oblivion to be better than it was.
PS The convincing goblins to be your friends thing was a bit unfair, there were a lot of quests in Oblivion that dealt with humans, and not even hostile humans at that.
[1] - Assumption, based on there being no girls on the Internet
As to Morrowind > Oblivion, I was reading Fire Daemon's post above and thinking to myself "You know, I did really enjoy Morrowind, and moreso than Oblivion, but I can't justify why". I think part of it is the affection people tend to have for older games that pushed genre boundaries at the time like I feel Morrowind did by blending FPS and RPG elements. I'm at a loss to explain the rest, because as Mr[1] No-Vowels said a lot of the things I didn't like about Oblivion were there in Morrowind. Who knows, maybe it's just hype - people expected that after Morrowind they expected Oblivion to be better than it was.
PS The convincing goblins to be your friends thing was a bit unfair, there were a lot of quests in Oblivion that dealt with humans, and not even hostile humans at that.
[1] - Assumption, based on there being no girls on the Internet
As we all can tell from the screenshots Fallout 3 will have some very nice graphics, better than Oblivion`s. Also the Fallouts were pretty seriously bugged games, while in Oblivion I have yet to encounter a bug which would, say, prevent me from completing a quest. Let`s not dramatize the NPCs getting stuck on pavements. I`ve seen worse.
The problem is that character design, dialogues and quest plots in Oblivion - for me the core of an RPG - are ridiculously weak. There is supposedly over a 1000 NPCs, but so what. Their faces are very similar, even for major characters. The voice cast is an insult to the player. These 1000+NPCs are voiced by perhaps less than 10 actors and not especially talented ones at that. Most major characters do not have their specific actors, nor a well drawn personality, therefore they do not feel major at all. I go to Shivering Isles, meet the frickin god of the place (how`s that for a major character!) and what do I hear when he speaks? The same voice I`ve heard hundreds of times before, from soldiers, shopkeepers, bandits and whatnot. Bethesda should have made most of the minor NPCs mute (it didn`t hurt players in other RPGs, like Fallout) and instead of hiring cpt. Pickard and Boromir (who have great voices but most likely also great paycheck requirements) use the money to hire some voiceover veterans, like Joe DiMaggio, but in a larger number.
Dialogues are practically non-existent. If you have any choice at all, it usually boils down to selecting order in which you ask certain questions (which doesn`t matter) or a simple yes/no alternative. Your character`s social skills barely matter. And using a minigame as an excuse for persuasion? Someone`s been really lazy. Think of the dialogue trees in Fallout, how your socials skills were absolutely essential, how persuasion was represented by actual WORDS, how your intelligence restricted access to some dialogue options, how you could get KILLED if you rubbed someone the wrong way.
It would hurt me to see the next Fallout turn out to be a pretty action-RPG, Diablo style, bu t I have hope. The designers said a long time ago that they reflected on Oblivion and decided to make a smaller world with less NPCs, but put more effort in creating their personalities. Precisely what they need to do. All is not lost.
The problem is that character design, dialogues and quest plots in Oblivion - for me the core of an RPG - are ridiculously weak. There is supposedly over a 1000 NPCs, but so what. Their faces are very similar, even for major characters. The voice cast is an insult to the player. These 1000+NPCs are voiced by perhaps less than 10 actors and not especially talented ones at that. Most major characters do not have their specific actors, nor a well drawn personality, therefore they do not feel major at all. I go to Shivering Isles, meet the frickin god of the place (how`s that for a major character!) and what do I hear when he speaks? The same voice I`ve heard hundreds of times before, from soldiers, shopkeepers, bandits and whatnot. Bethesda should have made most of the minor NPCs mute (it didn`t hurt players in other RPGs, like Fallout) and instead of hiring cpt. Pickard and Boromir (who have great voices but most likely also great paycheck requirements) use the money to hire some voiceover veterans, like Joe DiMaggio, but in a larger number.
Dialogues are practically non-existent. If you have any choice at all, it usually boils down to selecting order in which you ask certain questions (which doesn`t matter) or a simple yes/no alternative. Your character`s social skills barely matter. And using a minigame as an excuse for persuasion? Someone`s been really lazy. Think of the dialogue trees in Fallout, how your socials skills were absolutely essential, how persuasion was represented by actual WORDS, how your intelligence restricted access to some dialogue options, how you could get KILLED if you rubbed someone the wrong way.
It would hurt me to see the next Fallout turn out to be a pretty action-RPG, Diablo style, bu t I have hope. The designers said a long time ago that they reflected on Oblivion and decided to make a smaller world with less NPCs, but put more effort in creating their personalities. Precisely what they need to do. All is not lost.
Joe DiMaggio in Fallout 3 would be sick! *shoot zombie thing* Scratch one zombie!*talk to someone* Bite my shiny metal (daffodil) ass!
I'm looking forward to seeing what Fallout 3 has to offer. Even though I despise Oblivion, I think Bethesda may make a better game with this one. Any deviation from what Oblivion offered would pretty much be an admission of guilt on Bethesda's part so I'm also curious to see what they acknowledge as design mistakes with Oblivion. I have my list... let's see there's. ;-)
That said, I probably won't pick this game up at all. I destroyed my fondness of the Star Wars films by watching the prequel disasters... so it's probably best to hold off indefinitely on Fallout 3.
That said, I probably won't pick this game up at all. I destroyed my fondness of the Star Wars films by watching the prequel disasters... so it's probably best to hold off indefinitely on Fallout 3.
They could just take Oblivion and fix the problums, a change here and there, change almost everything else and BAM! Fallout 3!
If Fallout 3 stays close to its series and takes the good parts of Morrowind and Oblivion it will be a good game. As for bows being crap in oblivion? What the hell? Bows were the only weapons that I found fun.
I wish good sales and quality merchandise ran side by side.. it would be an almost perfect world. But, unfortunately, there are quite a few examples of them running rather perpendicular.shatnershaman said:
Oblivion's level scaling, repetitive dungeons and towns, terrible dialogue, fast travel, and complete lack of care for the story killed it for me. Overhaul mods can't even make this game very fun. Perhaps if Bethesda stuck with the "alien-like" world of Morrowind, it would have sustained some interest, but the bland atmosphere is about all you get.
the level scaling is the most annoying part. if any developers want a game that doesn't feel challenging while being generically equally difficult from beginning to end... then by all means scale the difficulty. it's actually what made City of Heroes so damn awfulruntheplacered said:
While most of your argument is valid, The Shivering Isles had main character voice actors for just that person like the Old Librarian, Jyggalag, even the assistant Haskill, and Sheagorath definatly had his own voice actor! No one else in the entire game has an old scottish accent like hisAirhead said:
I really loved Oblivion and hold it as the best fantasty RPG out there. Unlike all other RPG's it lets you set your own goals and never forces you to do anything. The genericness of it and the voice actors don't annoy me at all. I love that the game is hollow infact, it would be bad if it wasn't hollow. Because the game just was an empty shell my imagination could run wild, I could be whoever I wanted to be. So in that sense it had ever more freedom then the original Fallout's.
If they translate it into the brilliant leveling up of Fallout it will be utterly brilliant.
If they translate it into the brilliant leveling up of Fallout it will be utterly brilliant.