Can Meat Eaters be Easy to Offend?

[madwarper]

What do I need to prove? It's what the term "factory farming" means. Intensive farming with animals densely confined.

a) Define what "insensitive farming" means, as opposed to say "sensitive farming".
b) Prove that that these farms have "insensitive" practices.
Misread.

Or, let me just ask you this; Have you ever visited any animal farm? A pig? Chicken? Turkey?
Can you personally attest to the veracity of the statements which you purport to be true?

Or, are you just rattling off a list of talking points with no interest in the truth of the matter?

 

[Dizchu]

EDIT: And usually it's restricted to Beef, at least in America.

I thought it was bacon? Hmm, interesting. Well I suppose most burgers are made with beef.

I do think beef tastes a lot better than bacon though, which I always found overrated.

 

[DoPo]

Wait, and that is offence? As opposed to a joke?

I suppose it could just be a "get back in the kitchen"-style joke but I can't help but feel that it's a lazy prefab response, much like "if humans evolved from monkeys why are there still monkeys?" and "Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve!" It just comes off to me as a cheap "gotcha".

And indeed, I would say it could be often used as a cheap "gotcha". Still, doesn't make it an automatic expression of offence.

But if it is just a joke response I have to wonder, why is it the stereotype is about vegans that feel the need to make everyone know that they're vegan, and is not equally applicable to meat eaters?

I don't know. I haven't actually heard of that vegan stereotype myself. Still, if I were to go off on stereotypes in general - a lot are bullshit and get perpetuated as some sort of group confirmation bias. Sure, some stereotypes have some basis in reality, but the phrase (and variations of it) "every stereotype starts from a truth" I've found to be bullshit as well.

 

[DementedSheep]

Sometimes, it's like if you tell people you don't drink and they immediately take the mere fact that you don't as judgement against them. You tell people you're vegetation and they assume it means you think you're above them. It's weird.

 

[Dizchu]

a) Define what "insensitive farming" means, as opposed to say "sensitive farming".
b) Prove that that these farms have "insensitive" practices.

Or, let me just ask you this; Have you ever visited any animal farm? A pig? Chicken? Turkey?
Can you personally attest to the veracity of the statements which you purport to be true?

Or, are you just rattling off a list of talking points with no interest in the truth of the matter?

You have one farm where animals can roam freely outside, get tended to individually and have enough living space to live in relative comfort.

You have another where animals live indoors, in extremely close proximity and in very large numbers. The sheer density of stock means that hygiene is extremely compromised, meaning animals must be pumped with antibiotics (70% of all antibiotics are used on livestock).

Don't tell me you can't see how the second type of farm makes ethical treatment extremely difficult (if it's even deemed necessary in the first place).

 

[Jux]

Interestingly though, I've found that meat eaters can be really easy to offend. I've seen many take criticisms of the meat industry very personally, which often results in lashing out.

Assuming for the sake of argument this is true, and not overblown, why is this a shock? I imagine it would create quite the dissonance in someone to be confronted over something that they enjoy, but has problematic elements. In this case, perhaps the dubious ethics of how animals are treated, or perhaps sustainability issues of raising meat for food when the land could be more efficiently used by crops, to feed more people.

To draw a parallel, some gamers have kneejerk reactions to criticism of certain games as personal attacks because they enjoy those games.

 

[madwarper]

Don't tell me you can't see how the second type of farm makes ethical treatment extremely difficult (if it's even deemed necessary in the first place).

So... No. You have not visited any of these farms.

But, I have visited the farms in my area, and I can attest that their conditions are entirely ethical. Though, I suppose it is pointless to attempt to continue this conversation with you if you do nothing but continue to spout the same nonsense, and not consider that it might not be entirely accurate.

But, it appears we have come to the answer to your question. If farming were my livelihood, and my ethics and professionalism was called into question as you have done for said farmers, I might be offended.

 

[DementedSheep]

Sometimes, it's like if you tell people you don't drink and they immediately take the mere fact that you don't as judgement against them.

I've had people ask if I was Mormon when I said I didn't drink <.<

What do I need to prove? It's what the term "factory farming" means. Intensive farming with animals densely confined.

a) Define what "insensitive farming" means, as opposed to say "sensitive farming".
b) Prove that that these farms have "insensitive" practices.

I think you misread that; Intensive, as in Intense, not Insensitive.

Same here! It always Morman they leap to and then some of them make it their mission to make you drink.

 

[Beliyal]

While I ate meat, I never noticed this. I always complained how vegetarians and vegans are annoying with their preaching every once in a while.

Then I became a vegetarian.

There's not a single day that goes by without someone commenting on my food, telling me how humans have to eat meat, how can I not eat meat, bacon is amazing, are you insane, you are going to die. I cannot accurately describe how incredibly more annoying some meat eaters are when it comes to this. I don't even comment on anyone's meal. I normally eat with people while they meat and I don't. Unless someones starts the topic first, I literally couldn't give two shits about someone else's food. And yet, people comment on my choice without being provoked or asked anything at all.

This is so fascinating to me, as I always heard the "annoying vegetarian/vegan" trope and even believed it myself and yet, during my life, I've maybe met 2 or 3 annoying vegetarians/vegans and about 3 fucking thousand annoying meat eaters. Like, even if I say nothing at all about my diet, let alone if I comment on the meat industry, people immediately jump at my throat simply because I put soy in my plate, instead of a steak.

Important note: eating meat has an almost religious devotion where I live. There are still many people who literally cannot fathom what vegetarianism/veganism is. I say "I don't eat meat" and they stand, observing me like I'm a literal alien. These people take it as a personal slight if someone isn't gorging themselves on pork. God forbid you actually say something against eating meat. My grandmas reacted as if got cancer when I told them I'm going vegetarian. So perhaps my experience is mostly painted by this cultural background.

 

[Jux]

There's not a single day that goes by without someone commenting on my food, telling me how humans have to eat meat, how can I not eat meat, bacon is amazing, are you insane, you are going to die. I cannot accurately describe how incredibly more annoying some meat eaters are when it comes to this. I don't even comment on anyone's meal. I normally eat with people while they meat and I don't. Unless someones starts the topic first, I literally couldn't give two shits about someone else's food. And yet, people comment on my choice without being provoked or asked anything at all.

This is so fascinating to me, as I always heard the "annoying vegetarian/vegan" trope and even believed it myself and yet, during my life, I've maybe met 2 or 3 annoying vegetarians/vegans and about 3 fucking thousand annoying meat eaters. Like, even if I say nothing at all about my diet, let alone if I comment on the meat industry, people immediately jump at my throat simply because I put soy in my plate, instead of a steak.

I would venture this is due to two reasons. First, vegetarians and vegans are a minority, so any criticism of eating meat is going to seem odd, out of place, and thus magnified. People make it bigger than it really is in their own heads. On the flip side, I can see why you catch so much flak for it. You're surrounded by meat eaters, so the statistical chance of someone saying something to you is going to go up (also because not eating meat is 'out of place', so they probably feel it's worth commenting on, either in jest or seriously). Not that that makes it right, by any means.

 

[Frankster]

I had no inclination to think whether one being vegetarian or not has any correlation with butt hurtedness but I definitely agree with the sentiment even the most voracious meat eater would puke their last meal out if they saw how their food got made.

I like my meat, I can't deny it, but having seen documentaries on factory farming and what not, Im under no illusion on what goes on in them. I try to go for organic/free range meat instead (or fish!) out of the reassuring hope that the animal that I'm eating at least got to run around, stretch its legs and not live its entire life in what is basically hell on earth.

 

[Beliyal]

I would venture this is due to two reasons. First, vegetarians and vegans are a minority, so any criticism of eating meat is going to seem odd, out of place, and thus magnified. People make it bigger than it really is in their own heads. On the flip side, I can see why you catch so much flak for it. You're surrounded by meat eaters, so the statistical chance of someone saying something to you is going to go up (also because not eating meat is 'out of place', so they probably feel it's worth commenting on, either in jest or seriously). Not that that makes it right, by any means.

Yeah, something like that. It's also interesting to me because I was that way too while I ate meat. I had to comment on vegetarians/vegans in some way. Anything out of the norm immediately raises questions, at least out of curiosity.

It remains, in my experience at least, that you face vastly more flak for being outside of the norm (not surprising) and thus now I see the "annoying vegetarian/vegan" trope in a much different light. As a matter of fact, it's often simply defense from a non-vegetarian/vegan who began the argument first. All in all, it's interesting, especially when you've been a part of the both sides.

 

[Secondhand Revenant]

Meat eaters do seem to often reply to vegetarians in a sort of hostile manner. Or one that seems to look down on them.

Or rather there always seems to be a plethora of meat eaters to do that, not that everyone who does does it.

Personally I eat meat, I just see some people seem to like to be obnoxious about it when they see vegetarians.

 

[nohorsetown]

I was vegetarian for most of my life (and am still mostly vegetarian, since I'm used to it), and I totally get where you're coming from. I never proselytized or pushed my "vegetarian agenda" at all, but I was regularly teased and interrogated by meat eaters whenever my vegetarianism came up. People would frequently get offended and act like I was finding fault with them -- but I didn't even particularly want them to KNOW. I NEVER brought it up. If it came up, I'd say "Oh, yeah, it's just a diet. Who cares?" . . . But a lot of my shitty friends cared a lot. They were bad friends in other ways, too -- so fuck 'em!

One woman who was the absolute worst -- always teasing me, literally waving meat in my face, etc. -- she later "switched sides" and became the preachiest, most obnoxious vegetarian I've ever met. For the most part, though, vegetarians I've met have been much less obsessed with diet than the meat eaters who criticize them.

 

[Loonyyy]

Yes. You turn down meat, or ask about options at an event, and it'll happen. There's so many people who've given me rubbish about how great bacon is, or how my diet isn't balanced (Like their's is). Or that I'm somehow missing out. I'm not trying to give anyone any trouble either, if my friends are doing something, I typically look after my own food, I don't want to cause anyone any trouble with my decision. If someone wants to eat around my place, they can eat what they like, I'll even help them prepare it. I know this diet choice makes me difficult to prepare for at a barbecue, so I'll bring my own burgers.

They're offended by your mere existence if you don't eat meat, particularly if it's for some sort of moral reason, because it makes them question themself. It would be easier for them to convince you to eat meat than to deal with the contradiction this poses. The worst ones will push you, "Do you think you're better than me?", and I'm like, fuck man, I just think not eating meat is more moral, and a more rational application of my beliefs than eating it. By my standards vegans are doing better than me, because I still use a ton of dairy, and that's hardly cruelty free. I don't really want to explain my reasoning, which is only what I've applied to myself to others, because they're offended by it, and I genuinely do not want that.

You hear the stereotype about how you'll know if someone's a vegan or a vegetarian, they'll tell you, how they hate humanity and look down on people, all this other shit. It's about as accurate as "All atheists are immoral". It's a fundamentalist defense of a position they take for granted against the existential threat you pose simply by being different.

I've never given anyone the supposed "vegetarian" lecture on it, I don't feel like prosletyzing it. That's just being a dick to people. I ate meat for years, I'd be an utter hypocrite to do that, and it's not worth the fuss. Typically people don't know until I turn down some of their food, and then I get the speech about dietary balance. This has happened with people I've known for months. Or the patronising response "Oh, you're one of the good ones, you don't shove it in people's faces". I will give you the lecture if you hassle me, or if you feel the need to make up reasons for eating meat. As far as I'm concerned, there's one good argument for eating meat, and that is that it's fucking tasty, and that it traditionally forms a part of many cultures, and breaking from that culture is hard. And that reason is good enough for me.

Just don't tell me that it's better for you, somehow more ethical or moral, or try to sell it on an environmentalist bent. That's not why anyone eats meat. I just want to hear some honesty about it.

But yeah, most easily offended folks on the planet. Religious folks of all stripes are far more tolerant of me being an atheist, than meat eaters are of me not eating meat.

 

[McElroy]

I dunno about getting offended, really, but there sure as hell are people who make these worn-out sarcastic comments about vegetarian diets any chance they get - which of course leads to a confrontational, "productive discussion" on the matter.

Aaaaand I am guilty of that as well from time to time. People practically always go vege because they want to feel better about themselves, and so I'll always question their choice if they rather have some other mantra ready than admit it.

 

[FirstNameLastName]

I think a lot of it just comes from people feeling insecure about their own morality. It seems to just be assumed that all vegetarians are doing it for ethic reasons as opposed to health related or environmental. Even when that's true, the mere suggestion that there is a valid ethical argument against eating meat, or even just the treatment of animals in general, is naturally threatening to anyone who supports such practices. It pretty much inevitably turns every situation into a moral battleground as people desperately and aggressively try to convince themselves that they are in the right.

While I personally don't follow any vegetarian or vegan lifestyle, I see what the OP is talking about. Despite the stereotype of vegetarians being pushy and preachy, I've noticed that meat-eaters tent to be far preachier and aggressive when it comes to shoving their beliefs down others' throats. That's not to say both groups don't have their fair share of arseholes, but I think the preachy stereotype is being thrust onto the wrong group. I guess it just comes down to the fact that preaching seems far preachier when it's someone else's ideology.

Plus, while it's true that I more or less have a foot in both sides of the argument, I've noticed there do seem to be a lot more people on the omnivore side who show up for the sole purpose of giving others the middle finger (although, there are more people on that side overall); usually simply by declaring how much meat they've just eaten, or how much they intend to do so, which is the intellectual equivalent of showing up to a religious debate and declaring that you wiped your arse with the Bible this morning.

 

[cleric of the order]

Not to my knowledge, no
however the vegan pushing seems to be far more prevalent as I've found, mind you I've only met a handful but many of them went on about their eating habits as if it was an ideology and as far as I can tell it is if not it is an identity.
I mean you guys have that in group out group thing going on, very linear meat eater v Vegan thing.
Now don't get me wrong, I don't eat a lot of meat.
I'm a softy that likes animals, enjoys vegetables more most of the time and has a pathological dislike of boned food, and generally I do believe it better to hold back on the meat.
And as much as I agree with some tenants of veganism I do find the practitioners I've met to be illogical and extremist in their views and at times illogical.
Mind you the given persons were a bit crazy, had this whole spiritual thing, would claim to have a lot of hard science to support their claims, without even expressing what the contents were and believed meat led to heart disease (while not wrong per say it's more to do with the preparation of the meat and other foods I would assume than the nature of meat itself, see fried foods, if there is a study that directly links these things).
And worst of all they injected this into dinner time conversation or regular conversation.
I've known vegans to shame people on thanksgiving for eating meat and trying to make the traditional turkey dinner offensive to some, by posting images of turkeys in a slaughterhouse and talking about decaying turkey matter in your guts, and no they were not a troll. Now I personally dislike the modern turkey for taste reasons as much as the bloated chests but this is generally too far, live and let eat.

now something in your text does catch my eye and might explain this issue, depending on the context:
"

or how humans have "evolved to eat meat".

"
That is as far as I understand demonstrably true.
Humans have evolved to eat meat by our ability to process, ingest and otherwise gain succor from eating meat ipso facto.
And this is something I have had the miss fortune to have had an argument with a vegan who denied this claim and showed a complete lack of understanding of the terms Omnivore and vegetarian. Now I doubt this is the case with you but I would be likewise quick to jump on that if your arguments are similar enough in structure, likewise it makes a great general reason to explain dietary methods.

Because they are the majority group they tend to have a lot of support.

the following is largely redundant
They are the majority for a good reason I suppose, simply because you can't always be picky about what you eat, from what I remember you guys have to have a number of dietary supplements in order to sustain yourselves. And while it is true that poorer folks around the world and people from older ages would not have eaten anywhere as much meat as we eat today but they in aggregate would not have been able to make that choice, barring rather dedicated Hindus and Buddhists (mind your they were living in food rich environment). The ability to entirely cut out a source of nutrientence is an entirely new phenomenon.

Which just makes me wonder, if they have such strength in numbers and they honestly believe what they're doing is morally/ethically okay then why do they have such knee-jerk, emotional reactions?

Most people don't care about the morality, they care about having food, living their lives, there is only so much shit a person can really fucking take.
So if there are knee jerk reactions then maybe they just didn't want to talk about it. Again it depends on context, individual,etc,etc but the vast majority of people across all cultures and times have not had the time to really care.
And far as I know the only people who are concerned about the morality of eating meat are those who can spare not to.

I'm just curious about why many of them are quick to get defensive if they're the vast majority.

Because there is not in group here, no identity.
There is no as far as I know meat eater identity, maybe it's different in the grease wastelands of the southern lands (America) where it does some to be a sign of status but from what I can tell most people don't have that group identity.
Vegans quite obviously do have a group identity from what I've seen, now it could be like atheists, libertarians or the like, herding cats and all that but at the very least there is a clear out group: "meat eater".
So from what I understand when one approach an individual to talk about something they probably don't care about, have little individual power over enmasse and make them question their ethics process they would likely be much aggrieved, and likely be defensive because one is addressing alone individual and explaining quite plainly why one believes their actions to be immoral.
Any evocation of the numerical superiority could reasonably be hand waved as a display by the less educated on the defensive and is frankly argument from popularity.
Now in the event that a person confronts you about it directly, because the behavior is abnormal then it could also be explained that the populist argument comes from the abnormality of your behavior.
and those two board categories should cover it.
There are quite a lot of ignorant folks, vegan and otherwise, that do not know how to allow others to live their own lives and feel it their duty to police those behaviors they find erroneous. Now there's a lot that don't but it is just possible that the folks that talk to you about it are those folks, likewise it is very much possible that you are one of those folks (no offense diz, but I don't know you very well, though I do like how I have seen you handle yourself) as well as it is equally possible that this is an issue of talking to the wrong people, confirmation bias or simple approach.
Have a nice night

 

[Kerethos]

The whole "humans have evolved to eat meat" and such is just silly. We're omnivores! As long as we get all the nutrients we need from our diet then we can pretty much eat whatever we want, meat or no meat. We're not great with raw meat, but raw vegetables are usually fine though. So based on our biology, we should probably eat mostly vegetables.

I try to go vegetarian a few days a week and to eat less meat in general, that's about as far as my commitment to either goes. Anyone with extremist views tend to be an ass though, that kind of comes with that package. Be it religion, politics or diet.

 

[Naraka]

The whole "humans have evolved to eat meat" and such is just silly. We're omnivores! As long as we get all the nutrients we need from our diet then we can pretty much eat whatever we want, meat or no meat. We're not great with raw meat, but raw vegetables are usually fine though. So based on our biology, we should probably eat mostly vegetables.

I try to go vegetarian a few days a week and to eat less meat in general, that's about as far as my commitment to either goes. Anyone with extremist views tend to be an ass though, that kind of comes with that package. Be it religion, politics or diet.

We're omnivores, but that's a broad term and our evolutionary history of the last 1.8 million years or so centered around meat, until relatively recently. We're also the kind of omnivores that try to get a little of everything, not a little of everything, except animal protein. The truth is that our core diet is probably originally small insects, rodents, amphibians, birds, scavenged marrow bones, and the occasional large kill. All of that would have been supplemented with seasonal fruits and nuts, with minimal vegetation involved. Until Beer and Bread came along, grain and agriculture weren't primary driving factors, so while you might have had some wild barley or wheat, it's not the same as a diet of grain.

Agriculture, raising animals for milk and cheese, are all relatively new. Roasting meat is old. You really have no basis to go against, "Evolved to eat meat", and "Evolved to eat cooked meat" at that. The point is that humans are defined by our ability to adapt. We also evolved to fuck our cousins and screw what we now call teenage kids. We evolved to kill people who didn't look or smell quite right. The evolutionary argument has always been half-assed when diet and habits are concerned. That's still no reason for you to try and re-write that evolutionary history.