Can someone explain the appeal of Rogue-likes/lites to me?

Drathnoxis

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I LOVE roguelikes! It is my favorite genre, by far!

People have covered most things by now; endless exploration and possibilities, thrill of overcoming a challenge, typically short playthroughs, but people haven't really touched on one of the best aspects of roguelikes: permadeath.

Permadeath is one of the most powerful tools a game developer has available. If used correctly it can produce a tension unlike anything else. There is nothing like the threat of death to add stakes. Not the "oh no I'll have to go back to the last checkpoint and that was FIVE MINUTES AGO!" kind of death. Nor the "I died and lost a trivial amount of money/experience!" kind of death either. The kind of death where everything is over, no going back to a checkpoint or reloading a save despite how desperately you want to undo that stupid mistake you just made. That's what makes games like Nethack so engrossing and addictive. Knowing that, at any moment if you aren't paying enough attention or make a stupid mistake you could lose hours of progress and have to start over at square one. The satisfaction to be gained from successes is the exact inverse of the devastation that would be wrought from failure. It's the sort of thrill that games used to give me back in the days when I had clumsy child hands, and beating any game was a major challenge. The kind of thrill where your hands are all sweaty with tension and you haven't taken a drink or gone to the bathroom for hours because you have a good run going and you don't want to break concentration.

Also, along with the random generation it allows each playthrough to be it's own unique story. Every run in Nethack where I made it past dungeon level 10 is a memorable experience. Like the first time I made it to the end of the game and managed to get myself into an endless battle on the astral plane of air with a veritable army of demons. Or the time I was brimming with confidence after having a largely successful run, thinking I was unstoppable I decided I was going to melee the High Priest of Moloch to death rather than waste MP on spells. It turns out I vastly underestimated his strength and found my HP was rapidly depleting, however I had many curative items available and decided I would simply consume a tin of nurse meat for a full heal... forgetting that even blessed tins take several turns to open and ended up dying not half an hour from beating the game. That one took me a while to recover from. Each game is so very different, despite the fact that they all share the same structure and basic dungeon layout, the events that will play out between entering the Dungeons of Doom and recovering the Amulet of Yendor can vary tremendously, be it finding an exceedingly good item early or managing to escape from a stupid blunder or a monster that you were not equipped to deal with yet.

Hmm, this ended up pretty long and I still feel like there's much left unsaid. And here I thought I would just make this a quick one :/
 

Kyrian007

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For me, there's a genuine lack of challenge in current games. Like the difficulty mode has been default set to "easy." Being able to get through a game to the end is the norm, not an exception that marks the achievement as something that makes you an expert. Even the word achievement has been cheapened to mean something you get for clicking on a thing for the first time in a game. The difference in challenge in a roguelike I've heard explained like this:

Which is better, a math test where you learn how to solve types of math problems and the test gives you randomly generated variables in each equation... ensuring you know how to do that type of math.

Or a test where you are given the specific equations that will be on the test, with the answers, and the test just takes away the answers... only proving you memorized each specific equation.

Or in other words, in most games you improve by getting better at the specific scenarios in game. You memorize a path, know where the enemies spawn and where the traps are. A roguelike makes you get better by forcing you to be a better player overall.

I don't mind saying it, its basically a kind of elitism. I buy say Far Cry 5, I know for a fact pretty much everyone else who bought it will play it through just like I will. I buy FTL on the other hand, and blast my head against the wall 500 times before finally breaking through and blowing up that rebel flagship... Yeah, lots of people finished FTL, many more often and more quickly and more easily than me. But I also know a lot a people just gave up too. It is a sense of accomplishment that isn't hollow like finishing or even 100% most games.
 

ninja666

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Sonmi said:
hanselthecaretaker said:
They are primarily for the brand of gamer who suffers from acute boredom or masochism. Or both. Closest I?ve tried is Darkest Dungeon and after clearing 4-5 levels I realized I just wasn?t cool enough to continue on.

Right click>Delete Local Game Content

I?ll admit the game really has an eclectic, somewhat charming personality though...like a juicy, bourbon-infused kabob on a rusted iron spike concealed by a shiny, polished handle.
Darkest Dungeon isn't exactly the best example of a "good" roguelite though.

It's extremely grindy, and a proper run goes for 15-20 hours, while most rouguelites go for about 3 hours tops.
So wouldn?t that make it roguelike and not lite? I thought the differentiation was in how punishing they are in terms of grinding and level of RNG-ness.
 

Elijin

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ninja666 said:
It's a game genre where everything is randomized - the level layout, the enemy placement, the loot... You basically can't get better at the game by learning it due to all of those constantly changing, and yet the game has the audacity to punish you by making you lose all of your progress when you don't learn from your mistakes. I'm sorry, what mistakes? The mistake of not predicting there was going to be three enemies, that weren't there before, standing behind the corner that wasn't there before?
????

Roguelike and Roguelites are made with very deliberate mechanics, attacks and visual cues for how those work. The idea you cant learn a game because you cant memorise the layout of a level is absurd. Actually, it sounds pretty condemning of your own personal skill curve if you need to be able to use/abuse the level layouts to succeed in combat, or fail.
 

Elijin

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hanselthecaretaker said:
Sonmi said:
hanselthecaretaker said:
They are primarily for the brand of gamer who suffers from acute boredom or masochism. Or both. Closest I?ve tried is Darkest Dungeon and after clearing 4-5 levels I realized I just wasn?t cool enough to continue on.

Right click>Delete Local Game Content

I?ll admit the game really has an eclectic, somewhat charming personality though...like a juicy, bourbon-infused kabob on a rusted iron spike concealed by a shiny, polished handle.
Darkest Dungeon isn't exactly the best example of a "good" roguelite though.

It's extremely grindy, and a proper run goes for 15-20 hours, while most rouguelites go for about 3 hours tops.
So wouldn?t that make it roguelike and not lite? I thought the differentiation was in how punishing they are in terms of grinding and level of RNG-ness.
Roguelikes have all content available at all times. A run removes everything, and there are no permanent gains or changes to have.
Roguelites have unlock systems where permanent gains can be had. Resources to spend in pre-game menus, gradual stat upgrades, alternate characters, different items. Roguelites tend to start very barebones and gain more content the more you succeed (or fail).
 

ninja666

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As another thought, I suppose I?d like to like rogue-likes more, but the hurdle is knowing that progress is too much like gambling vs actual mastery. Sure, a good blackjack player can eventually beat the odds, but there is still that time having to grind through the whole deck before your odds are favorable to win, if you know what you?re doing. Rogue-likes seem like that, but instead of grinding for minutes to win you?re typically grinding for hours.

I currently don?t have that kind of time to be spent doing the boring stuff I just went through over and over and over before I?m prepared enough to make another attempt at conquering the shiny new stuff. It?s why Souls was the near perfect blend for me and so many others who were looking for a challenge, but not an unreasonable one. One where patience, some planning and persistence weren?t taken to levels approaching insanity.

Having said that, maybe Darkest Dungeon wasn?t the best example to base my opinion on. Maybe all rogue-likes or lites aren?t so grind-heavy?
 

ninja666

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Elijin said:
hanselthecaretaker said:
Sonmi said:
hanselthecaretaker said:
They are primarily for the brand of gamer who suffers from acute boredom or masochism. Or both. Closest I?ve tried is Darkest Dungeon and after clearing 4-5 levels I realized I just wasn?t cool enough to continue on.

Right click>Delete Local Game Content

I?ll admit the game really has an eclectic, somewhat charming personality though...like a juicy, bourbon-infused kabob on a rusted iron spike concealed by a shiny, polished handle.
Darkest Dungeon isn't exactly the best example of a "good" roguelite though.

It's extremely grindy, and a proper run goes for 15-20 hours, while most rouguelites go for about 3 hours tops.
So wouldn?t that make it roguelike and not lite? I thought the differentiation was in how punishing they are in terms of grinding and level of RNG-ness.
Roguelikes have all content available at all times. A run removes everything, and there are no permanent gains or changes to have.
Roguelites have unlock systems where permanent gains can be had. Resources to spend in pre-game menus, gradual stat upgrades, alternate characters, different items. Roguelites tend to start very barebones and gain more content the more you succeed (or fail).
So in other words it?s ironically roguelikes that aren?t the grind-heavy ones since you don?t gradually upgrade stats and keep anything? I really need to read more about them, sorry.

*edit* In case anyone?s in the dark like me on the differences. [https://www.hardcoregamer.com/2013/07/06/what-separates-a-roguelike-from-a-roguelite/47151/]. The comments also have more useful info.
 

Elijin

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hanselthecaretaker said:
As another thought, I suppose I?d like to like rogue-likes more, but the hurdle is knowing that progress is too much like gambling vs actual mastery. Sure, a good blackjack player can eventually beat the odds, but there is still that time having to grind through the whole deck before your odds are favorable to win, if you know what you?re doing. Rogue-likes seem like that, but instead of grinding for minutes to win you?re typically grinding for hours.

I currently don?t have that kind of time to be spent doing the boring stuff I just went through over and over and over before I?m prepared enough to make another attempt at conquering the shiny new stuff. It?s why Souls was the near perfect blend for me and so many others who were looking for a challenge, but not an unreasonable one. One where patience, some planning and persistence weren?t taken to levels approaching insanity.

Having said that, maybe Darkest Dungeon wasn?t the best example to base my opinion on. Maybe all rogue-likes or lites aren?t so grind-heavy?
A lot of roguelikes and roguelites are very mechanically heavy, and once you've got the attack patterns down and have reached a certain level of technical mastery, you can win almost every run. Being turn based combat with random encounters and such, Darkest Dungeon was pretty different in that aspect. A lot of the more popular ones lean into bullet hell or old school arcade combat, which allows skill to trump runs with hard enemies and bad loot.