Can someone explain the 'good' Bloodborne ending to me?

[Silvanus]

Depends ... most of the hunters in the HN are using dated technologies. Like one which I forget the name of is a direct precursor of the more elegant threaded cane. Suggesting that these hunters have been through a number of engagements that are likely to stretch beyond the Paleblood Hunter's experience (atleast in the waking world).

In fact, watching those crude, murderous, experienced hunters fall to their bloodthirsty natures might by the whole reason for the evolution of the more 'elegant' weapons.

As per the descriptions of the Threaded Cane;

[Snip]

Obviously there was an attempt to make the hunt more ceremonial, more refined and orderly. Quite obviously it failed given how many Hunters have survived with sanity intact?

Nothing here would indicate that the Player Hunter will match Ludwig's bloodlust, or even come close.

Scarcely anybody has managed to survive with sanity intact. I can think of two characters (the sceptical man, and Djura), and an arguable third (Eileen), who still loses her mind depending on your actions.

I think there's enough direct evidence that the Hunt tarnishes the Hunter, in the end. An attempt to demonstrate to oneself that the hunt will never encroach upon the soul.

Safe to say without the Moon Presence's intercession, you'd be no different in the end. Assuming you even survived....

And that's not 'speculative' ... that's just playing the odds.

The Hunt does tarnish the Hunter. I've said that myself.

The Moon Presence's protection may be keeping the player safe; it's a fair hypothesis, though still speculative. Even so, this doesn't mean communion via blood affords the same protection. Almost everybody who has taken blood is a slavering madman or a beast.

But clearly, repeatedly shown, the blood is not the only cause of that. Nor is it the only way one mutate and be turned as if a beast (in fact, in game examples). Ones that specifically state do not rely on the blood.

Which examples are these? Who has mutated to beasthood, who also abstains from Blood?

And frankly, need I have to remark, the blood is the only way you not only gain that communion with the Moon Presence, the blood also saves you from that beast via that Communion. The intercession of the Moon Presence saves you, that should be more than clear. And frankly to explain that communion as anything less than due to Blood Ministration is the truly most speculative answer here.

The intercession of the moon presence is probably what protects the player hunter, yes. It affords you a protection it is not affording the thousands of others who take blood.

It is not the blood that saves you. It is the moon presence's particular interest.

It wasn't just the hunters.

The curse extended to the scholars, the church, the school, AND the hunters.

They plainly state that as you first go into the HN. It is plainly narrated to the player, as if to dispel any queries the player might have.

They don't give that little limerick for no reason.

'Curse the fiends' (Master Willem and the Byrgenwerth Scholars)

'their children, too...' (Church and the School of Mensis)

'and their chidren, forever true...' (The hunters, both of Gehrman and the Church)

That was thecurse that the fishing hamlet gave onto theGreat Ones. And the Great Ones are "sympathetic in spirit". They answered and provided...

I'm aware of all this. It does not prove that the Beast Plague was a part of that curse.

Notice that the Beast Plague hugely predates the massacre. Notice that it affects people utterly unrelated to any of those groups you mentioned: Byrgenwerth, Mensis, the Church, the Hunters. It ravaged everybody, citizenry and Hunter alike.

Notice that Willem, who was directly involved in the massacre but abstained from blood is not affected by the beast plague.

 

[Addendum_Forthcoming]

Nothing here would indicate that the Player Hunter will match Ludwig's bloodlust, or even come close.

Scarcely anybody has managed to survive with sanity intact. I can think of two characters (the sceptical man, and Djura), and an arguable third (Eileen), who still loses her mind depending on your actions.

Not specifically Ludwig's, though arguably the crimes of Maria and Gehrman were worse, also imprisoned in the Hunter's Nightmare (as in Maria, Gerhman himself is spared that fate because of the Moon Presence just as you are not forced to be there due to you are dreaming yourself) ...

Actually I would say that Maria and Gehrman are about 1000 times worse than Ludwig.

But then again I never said one would definitely be as beastial as Ludwig, I did however say that there's a good chance you'd be just as mindless as the hunters within. Hell you could be worse regardless without the blood ministration that seems to allow you a steady escape and the capacity to transcend the hunt.

In fact, as the story goes along the Amygdala actively snatches you and passes judgment.

The Hunt does tarnish the Hunter. I've said that myself.

The Moon Presence's protection may be keeping the player safe; it's a fair hypothesis, though still speculative. Even so, this doesn't mean communion via blood affords the same protection. Almost everybody who has taken blood is a slavering madman or a beast.

Almost everybody. Not everybody. Especially those hunters who still use copious amounts of blood, and have had communion with the Moon Presence.

Also not a hypothetical. All the people that are hinted or directly state as such are sane/non-beastial hunters. Regardless of how much blood they use. Regardless of if they use the blood. But what seems to be singularly known, the blood can allow one communion with the Moon Presence.

Which means the blood is the only reason you are safe, and the only reason you managed to gain the power to destroy the Beastly Scourge. No hunter 'uncut with blood' has that power.

One might say "We are born by the blood. Made men by the blood. Undone by the blood..."

And the player seems to be doing a whole lot of undoing, particularly of all the machinations of the Byrgenwerth Scholars. I argue that that limerick has nothing to do with the Beastly Scourge. Everything to do with the nature of communion.

Which examples are these? Who has mutated to beasthood, who also abstains from Blood?

Caryll runes, specifically the Beast Rune, can raise your beasthood stat to 100 on its own. Caryll runes don't require blood. In fact the Caryll Beast rune was forbidden.

It doesn't specifically state one who abstains utterly, but what we do know is the Caryll runes are not reliant on the blood. In fact the only readily available means to cause downward modification of the beast stat in the game is insight. Insight actively diminishes the effects of both frenzy and the beasthood stat.

Description of the Rune Workshop Tool:

Runesmith Caryll, student of Byrgenwerth, transcribed the inhuman utterings of the Great Ones
into what are now called Caryll Runes.

The hunter Who retrieves this workshop tool can etch Caryll Runes into the mind to attain their wondrous
strength.

Provost Willem would have been proud of Caryll's runes, as they do not rely upon blood in any measure.

The Beast's Embrace rune;

After the repeated experiments in controlling the scourge of beasts, the gentle "Embrace" rune was discovered.

When its implementation failed, the "Embrace" became a forbidden rune, but this knowledge became a foundation of the Healing Church.
Those who swear this oath take on a ghastly form and enjoy accentuated transformation effects, especially while wielding a beast weapon.

And just in case you argue that 'Caryll's Runes' is different from Caryll Rune...

The Beast Rune description;

A secret symbol left by Caryll, runesmith of Byrgenwerth.
A transcription of the roar of a labyrinth beast,
the bearer of the "Beast" rune has accentuated transformation effects.

"Beast" is one of the early Caryll Runes. as well as one of the first to be deemed forbidden.
The discovery of blood entailed the discovery of undesirable beasts.

It's safe to experimentations with the beastly scourge, and communion with the great ones, and its research, was going on a hell of a long time before Yharnam has even fallen, or even the arrival of the Healing Church began dishing out the blood.

The intercession of the moon presence is probably what protects the player hunter, yes. It affords you a protection it is not affording the thousands of others who take blood.

It is not the blood that saves you. It is the moon presence's particular interest.

So the fact that the Blood Minister of the Healing Church recruits you as a hunter, gives you blood ministration, you actively dream like he said you would, and knows what the Paleblood is?

Oh, yes... Paleblood... Well, you've come to the right place. Yharnam is the home of blood ministration. You need only unravel its mystery. But, where's an outsider like yourself to begin? Easy, with a bit of Yharnam blood of your own... But first, you'll need a contract...

-------

Good. All signed and sealed. Now let's begin the transfusion. Oh, don't you worry. Whatever happens... You may think it all a mere bad dream...

Basically the Blood Minister is telling you exactly what happens if you chose to transcend the Hunt. How would he know that if he wasn't also a hunter (as per his attire), and hadn't also sought communion with the Moon Presence, and hadn't been through exactly what the player is about to suffer?

And it just so happens that such a person who performs blood ministration contractually obligated you to the hunt, and provides the blood ministration, precisely so that you can also commune with the Moon Presence? And you just so happen to be saved by the Moon Presence regardless of the actions of the Blood Minister?

That sounds way more sketchy than just assuming the Blood didn't help you. I'd say the contract and transfusion is literally the only way you commune with the Moon Presence.

After all, with communion the Great Ones are sympathetic in spirit. You seek the Paleblood, you sign a contract with the Healing Church to be a hunter in exchange for communion, you receive the Blood, and you find the Moon Presence, and if choose correctly it all seems as if a bad dream.

That makes far more sense than some nebulous concept that that can be done without the blood.

Hence why I say blood ministration can save one from any disease. And I reckonthat extends to0 the beastly scourge.

I'm aware of all this. It does not prove that the Beast Plague was a part of that curse.

Notice that the Beast Plague hugely predates the massacre. Notice that it affects people utterly unrelated to any of those groups you mentioned: Byrgenwerth, Mensis, the Church, the Hunters. It ravaged everybody, citizenry and Hunter alike.

Notice that Willem, who was directly involved in the massacre but abstained from blood is not affected by the beast plague.

But also note, in game stats wise, the beasthood stat is dirently influenced and reduced by insight stat (also reduces frenzy effects if I recall). Which is why I make the argument those who can take bucket loads of blood, yet still be fine, are all those humans that simply know enough of about what is actually happening they do not fall completely. That they have already 'transcended the hunt'.

This is no guarantee of protection (Laurence, though arguablyhe never dreamed and was a primary sufferer of the curse), but it seems way too much of a coincidence that to assume otherwise is purely speculative.

In fact, the weird thing is your beasthood stat is modified by the clothing you wear ... like the Ashen Hunter set that set fire to Old Yharnam ...

 

[Silvanus]

Not specifically Ludwig's, though arguably the crimes of Maria and Gehrman were worse, also imprisoned in the Hunter's Nightmare (as in Maria, Gerhman himself is spared that fate because of the Moon Presence just as you are not forced to be there due to you are dreaming yourself) ...

Actually I would say that Maria and Gehrman are about 1000 times worse than Ludwig.

But then again I never said one would definitely be as beastial as Ludwig, I did however say that there's a good chance you'd be just as mindless as the hunters within. Hell you could be worse regardless without the blood ministration that seems to allow you a steady escape and the capacity to transcend the hunt.

In fact, as the story goes along the Amygdala actively snatches you and passes judgment.

I don't know why you're bringing Gehrman and Maria into this point; whether they're worse than Ludwig or not is irrelevant to the question of whether the Player Hunter is.

You said it's unfair to judge Ludwig on the acts he undertakes once he's lost his mind, and that we should judge him on his actions pre-beasthood. But we know almost nothing of his actions pre-beasthood. The only Ludwig we encounter is the mad, beastly kind.

Also, again, it's speculation to say the Amygdala "judges" the Player Hunter. It's also quite credible that the Amygdala merely recognises what you're carrying, and whisks you away to the locale it symbolises (the eye of the blood-drunk Hunter sends you to the Hunter's Nightmare; the tonsil stone sends you to the Nightmare Frontier). Hardly much of a "judgement" if you can just teleport out via the lanterns.

The fact is that the game tells you very, very little, and players have filled in much of that with speculation. Much of it is credible, but almost all of it is debatable. I simply don't agree with a lot of what you've drawn from it.

Almost everybody. Not everybody. Especially those hunters who still use copious amounts of blood, and have had communion with the Moon Presence.

Also not a hypothetical. All the people that are hinted or directly state as such are sane/non-beastial hunters. Regardless of how much blood they use. Regardless of if they use the blood. But what seems to be singularly known, the blood can allow one communion with the Moon Presence.

Which means the blood is the only reason you are safe, and the only reason you managed to gain the power to destroy the Beastly Scourge. No hunter 'uncut with blood' has that power.

One might say "We are born by the blood. Made men by the blood. Undone by the blood..."

And the player seems to be doing a whole lot of undoing, particularly of all the machinations of the Byrgenwerth Scholars. I argue that that limerick has nothing to do with the Beastly Scourge. Everything to do with the nature of communion.

The connection you've drawn between Hunters who "use copious amounts of blood" and those who are sane is extremely tenuous; almost non-existant.

The "sane" seems to consist of the player Hunter, Djura, and... the sceptical man? Who else? Why do you believe those characters have imbibed so much more blood than everybody else?

And this "protection" must require gallons of blood, seeing as almost everyone in the city was taking it in place of both medicine and alcohol, and yet they've all fallen to the beast plague-- including Hunters, who've been taking much more than the citizenry.

Caryll runes, specifically the Beast Rune, can raise your beasthood stat to 100 on its own. Caryll runes don't require blood. In fact the Caryll Beast rune was forbidden.

It doesn't specifically state one who abstains utterly, but what we do know is the Caryll runes are not reliant on the blood. In fact the only readily available means to cause downward modification of the beast stat in the game is insight. Insight actively diminishes the effects of both frenzy and the beasthood stat.

Description of the Rune Workshop Tool:

Runesmith Caryll, student of Byrgenwerth, transcribed the inhuman utterings of the Great Ones
into what are now called Caryll Runes.

The hunter Who retrieves this workshop tool can etch Caryll Runes into the mind to attain their wondrous
strength.

Provost Willem would have been proud of Caryll's runes, as they do not rely upon blood in any measure.

The Beast's Embrace rune;

After the repeated experiments in controlling the scourge of beasts, the gentle "Embrace" rune was discovered.

When its implementation failed, the "Embrace" became a forbidden rune, but this knowledge became a foundation of the Healing Church.
Those who swear this oath take on a ghastly form and enjoy accentuated transformation effects, especially while wielding a beast weapon.

Right, so we don't actually have any in-game example of a character canonically doing this.

I'm happy to concede that transformation into a beast is possible without blood. It still remains clear as day to me that by far the most common cause of the plague was infection through the blood, and it is this which has affected almost the entirety of the city.

So the fact that the Blood Minister of the Healing Church recruits you as a hunter, gives you blood ministration, you actively dream like he said you would, and knows what the Paleblood is?

Oh, yes... Paleblood... Well, you've come to the right place. Yharnam is the home of blood ministration. You need only unravel its mystery. But, where's an outsider like yourself to begin? Easy, with a bit of Yharnam blood of your own... But first, you'll need a contract...

-------

Good. All signed and sealed. Now let's begin the transfusion. Oh, don't you worry. Whatever happens... You may think it all a mere bad dream...

Basically the Blood Minister is telling you exactly what happens if you chose to transcend the Hunt. How would he know that if he wasn't also a hunter (as per his attire), and hadn't also sought communion with the Moon Presence, and hadn't been through exactly what the player is about to suffer?

And it just so happens that such a person who performs blood ministration contractually obligated you to the hunt, and provides the blood ministration, precisely so that you can also commune with the Moon Presence? And you just so happen to be saved by the Moon Presence regardless of the actions of the Blood Minister?

That sounds way more sketchy than just assuming the Blood didn't help you. I'd say the contract and transfusion is literally the only way you commune with the Moon Presence.

After all, with communion the Great Ones are sympathetic in spirit. You seek the Paleblood, you sign a contract with the Healing Church to be a hunter in exchange for communion, you receive the Blood, and you find the Moon Presence, and if choose correctly it all seems as if a bad dream.

That makes far more sense than some nebulous concept that that can be done without the blood.

Hence why I say blood ministration can save one from any disease. And I reckonthat extends to0 the beastly scourge.

You really don't need to keep providing quotes; I'm very well acquainted with the dialogue from the game.

I've not made any claims about the Blood Minister, so I'm not really sure what you're trying to prove to me, here. I'd say it's highly likely the Blood Minister has knowledge of the Moon Presence (or has met it himself), given that he mentions the contract.

This doesn't mean much regarding the blood transfusion. Again: hundreds of thousands of people have taken blood as medicine, as alcohol, as a drug. It has afforded them no protection, as they crawl about the streets, howling.

From my perspective, the Blood Minister performs the transfusion to save you from the ailment from which you are suffering when you first come to Yharnam. This blood does not protect you from beasthood; I'd say it even almost infects you (given that the beast you envision rises from a pool of blood, immediately after transfusion). The Moon Presence protects you, as the Minister probably knew it would.

But also note, in game stats wise, the beasthood stat is dirently influenced and reduced by insight stat (also reduces frenzy effects if I recall). Which is why I make the argument those who can take bucket loads of blood, yet still be fine, are all those humans that simply know enough of about what is actually happening they do not fall completely. That they have already 'transcended the hunt'.

This is no guarantee of protection (Laurence, though arguablyhe never dreamed and was a primary sufferer of the curse), but it seems way too much of a coincidence that to assume otherwise is purely speculative.

In fact, the weird thing is your beasthood stat is modified by the clothing you wear ... like the Ashen Hunter set that set fire to Old Yharnam ...

Willpower and knowledge can give resistance to the beast plague, yes. This doesn't counter my point.

If the beast plague is a result of the curse from the fishing hamlet (laid upon Byrgenwerth and its "children"), then how does the curse clearly affect groups which are utterly unrelated (the citizenry of Yharnam)? How does it impact people who predate the massacre (Loran)?

And, if Willem is spared by his insight alone, then it's a pretty shitty curse, isn't it?

 

[Terminal Blue]

Actually I would say that Maria and Gehrman are about 1000 times worse than Ludwig.

Does that matter though?

Curse the fiends,
their children too
and their children, forever true

The curse is endless. There's no evidence that any of the people it effects actually took part in the hunters sin, for which the curse was levied. It's not clear if hunters in the modern sense even existed, or if the curse was levied upon the Byrgenwerth scholars and simply passed down to the hunters as their modern descendents. They're not cursed because they're bad people or because they're somehow worse than other hunters, they're cursed because someone prayed for them, and for their descendents, and for their descendents, and for their descendents and so on and so on into literal eternity to be cursed.

Simon even mentions this directly as he lies dying in the lighthouse. The hunters nightmare isn't fair. The universe of bloodborne isn't fair, and it's "gods", while they sometimes listen, are not always kind or even comprehensible.

So the fact that the Blood Minister of the Healing Church recruits you as a hunter, gives you blood ministration, you actively dream like he said you would, and knows what the Paleblood is?

See, you've assumed that the blood the minister gives you is the paleblood. But there's one problem, your character is still looking for paleblood after the transfusion. You ask Gilbert about it when you meet him, and he tells you about the church.

So the minister is explaining to you what you need to do to get the paleblood you want. Specifically, unravel the mystery of Yharnam.

You go to the cathedral, and this sets in motion your journey which ends with travelling into the nightmare of mensis, thus unravelling the mystery at the heart of Yharnam, the mechanations of the healing church and ultimately the hidden ritual performed by the school of mensis in their misguided attempt to seek an audience with the great one Mergo.

The other clue we have is the paleblood is mentioned specifically in relation to the moon presence, the being that organises the hunt. ("The nameless moon presence beckoned by Laurence and his associates. Paleblood.") The goal of the moon presence and its hunt seems to be to "hunt the great ones" (from a note in the lecture theatre), specifically the ascended great ones in the nightmare. We can infer this because the hunt ends when we kill Mergo's Wetnurse and get the special "nightmare slain" message.

But my theory, and it's just speculation, is that seeking paleblood refers to our ultimate goal being to seek (and ultimately defeat) the moon presence, thus presumably ending the hunt permanently or "transcending" it.

Why we would want to do this is a mystery. If I remember right, there's some cut content which implies that originally our character was on a quest to save their homeland from a terrible plague, which explains why they would come to Yharnam in search of blood, but not specifically "paleblood" and that content being cut means we can't really read into it. All we know is that we came to Yharnam seeking paleblood, paleblood is somehow linked to the moon presence, and one of the endings of the game involves slaying the moon presence and thus ending the hunt, and in this ending we also personally "transcend" by becoming an infant great one.

Why the blood minister knows the moon presence and the messengers will choose us out of all of the people with the "Yharnam blood" isn't clear. For that matter, how he knows about the moon presence at all isn't clear.

And, if Willem is spared by his insight alone, then it's a pretty shitty curse, isn't it?

Well, Willem clearly believed that insight and beasthood were opposed somehow, and it's a view shared by a lot of characters in universe who seem to have a fair idea of what's going on (Micolash, for example). I see no reason not to assume it's true.

It's also clear that insight carries its own risks. Statwise it makes you vulnerable to frenzy (which seems to mean insanity or the mind-warping effects of the creatures of the nightmare). Under certain circumstances, it seems possible that gaining "more eyes" or even "lining your brain with eyes" can be very literal.

Thematically, bloodborne borrows very literally from Lovecraft, and in Lovecraft's work being aware of the true nature of reality is generally not a good thing. It's perhaps a curse in its own right.

The message I took away, and again pure speculation, is that both the Healing Church and the Byrgenwerth scholars are right and both of them are wrong. The characters who seem to be most okay are those who would have a moderate amount of both blood and insight. An excess of one or the other seems to be really, really bad. Blood without insight makes you a beast. Insight without blood makes you insane or "vacuous" (in Japanese, the word used is a little more offensive). The characters who remain relatively okay throughout the night are generally defined by having either both or neither.

 

[Silvanus]

Well, Willem clearly believed that insight and beasthood were opposed somehow, and it's a view shared by a lot of characters in universe who seem to have a fair idea of what's going on (Micolash, for example). I see no reason not to assume it's true.

I'm not really sure we should believe a thing Micolash says. He seems mad beyond the typical Yharnamite level. He seems to attempt praying to Kos repeatedly, for instance, despite the fact Kos died long ago.

Insight and beasthood are opposed, at least mechanically. That much is true. Yet, I see no reason to believe the beast plague has anything to do with the curse at the fishing hamlet. The beast plague predates it, and affects people who have no relationship and are not descendants.

It's also clear that insight carries its own risks. Statwise it makes you vulnerable to frenzy (which seems to mean insanity or the mind-warping effects of the creatures of the nightmare). Under certain circumstances, it seems possible that gaining "more eyes" or even "lining your brain with eyes" can be very literal.

Thematically, bloodborne borrows very literally from Lovecraft, and in Lovecraft's work being aware of the true nature of reality is generally not a good thing. It's perhaps a curse in its own right.

The message I took away, and again pure speculation, is that both the Healing Church and the Byrgenwerth scholars are right and both of them are wrong. The characters who seem to be most okay are those who would have a moderate amount of both blood and insight. An excess of one or the other seems to be really, really bad. Blood without insight makes you a beast. Insight without blood makes you insane or "vacuous" (in Japanese, the word used is a little more offensive). The characters who remain relatively okay throughout the night are generally defined by having either both or neither.

Almost nobody is okay, however, so we don't really have a functional sample-size.

We can only truly look to Djura and the Sceptical Man as examples of sane folk. The latter is highly unlikely to be insightful, or to use blood much in excess of what ordinary citizens do.

Djura, I suppose, is likely using both in moderation-- but still, the game doesn't really indicate that that is his saving grace. The differentiating factor for Djura is that he's retired from the Hunter profession, and thus hasn't let the bloodlust get to him.

 

[Terminal Blue]

I'm not really sure we should believe a thing Micolash says. He seems mad beyond the typical Yharnamite level.

If you think that madness is a sign of ignorance, then you haven't been paying attention.

He seems to attempt praying to Kos repeatedly, for instance, despite the fact Kos died long ago.

Did she?

We have no idea what death or time actually means to a great one. I mean, in a sense most of them probably are "dead" in that their consciousness has ascended to the nightmare. We fight the orphan of Kos in the nightmare, despite the fact it was "taken" in the waking world and is presumably dead there (likely harvested for its umbilical cord). Micolash himself is actually "dead", since it's implied to be his corpse that functions as a gateway into the nightmare. The inhabitants of the fishing hamlet also invoke the wrath of mother kos, and you'd think they know what they're talking about, since they're likely responsible for the nightmare existing.

But then, Micolash also asks "...do you hear our prayers?" implying that even he isn't sure if Kos is listening.

Yet, I see no reason to believe the beast plague has anything to do with the curse at the fishing hamlet. The beast plague predates it, and affects people who have no relationship and are not descendants.

This I agree with you on.

It seems to me like it's something a lot more fundamental. The beasthood is somehow inherent to humans (and Pthumerians) and seems to represent their kind of base, animalistic nature which the blood stimulates or brings out. "The indescribable sound is broadcast with the caster's own vocal cords, which begs the question, what terrible things lurk deep within the frames of men?"

By contrast, insight perhaps represents how much knowledge a character has and therefore how close they are to the nightmare, hence why it allows you to see creatures of the nightmare like the Amygdala (and the doll) for what they are. In this sense, characters with high insight have begun to move beyond their human nature and become like the dwellers of the nightmare themselves, so it makes sense that they are less bestial.

Almost nobody is okay, however, so we don't really have a functional sample-size.

True, but a lot of people don't turn into beasts or kin.

 

[Silvanus]

If you think that madness is a sign of ignorance, then you haven't been paying attention.

Oh, I'm sure Micolash has a great deal of arcane knowledge. I don't dispute that. But he's not a reliable source in the least.

Did she?

We have no idea what death or time actually means to a great one. I mean, in a sense most of them probably are "dead" in that their consciousness has ascended to the nightmare. We fight the orphan of Kos in the nightmare, despite the fact it was "taken" in the waking world and is presumably dead there (likely harvested for its umbilical cord). Micolash himself is actually "dead", since it's implied to be his corpse that functions as a gateway into the nightmare. The inhabitants of the fishing hamlet also invoke the wrath of mother kos, and you'd think they know what they're talking about, since they're likely responsible for the nightmare existing.

But then, Micolash also asks "...do you hear our prayers?" implying that even he isn't sure if Kos is listening.

I very much doubt the inhabitants of the hamlet had any true understanding of what they were communing with; they seem to have been reduced to either mindless sycophancy or directionless violence.

Most Great Ones we encounter, we encounter in the waking world (the numerous Amygdala, Ebrietas). Whether death is not the end for Kos is speculation: we do not hear anything from it after its death, and see only Micolash praying to it (and receiving no answer).

True, but a lot of people don't turn into beasts or kin.

Most such people are actually ordinary citizens, though, not Hunters-- citizens unlikely to be particularly insightful at all.

 

[Terminal Blue]

I very much doubt the inhabitants of the hamlet had any true understanding of what they were communing with; they seem to have been reduced to either mindless sycophancy or directionless violence.

I don't think anyone has any true understanding of what they are communing with. That's kind of the point. I would say if anyone has a chance of being close though, I'd put more trust in the insane and corrupt than in reasonable characters.

Most Great Ones we encounter, we encounter in the waking world (the numerous Amygdala, Ebrietas).

Ebrietas is special in this regard though. She is specifically the one who was left behind or abandoned, presumably when the great ones ascended to the nightmare. Killing her also gives the typical "prey slaughtered" message. It may have something to do with the fact that she is perhaps a celestial child. She has a slight resemblance to the other celestial children. Then again, Mergo is also a celestial child in a sense so it doesn't completely hold up, but it's not clear if Mergo was ever actually born. Encountering Mergo resulted in the brains of the school of Mensis being "stillborn", for example, which is an odd choice of words and implies Mergo himself might have been stillborn, and thus "lost" like the other children of great ones.

The Amygdala are very, very different to the other great ones we encounter, in that they are a roughly homogenous class of beings rather than unique creatures like the moon presence, mergo, kos, oedon, mergo's wetnurse and even ebreitas. In fact, other than the one we fight in the nightmare they all appear exactly the same. It seems more likely that they are simply powerful nightmare creatures, since they fit the pattern of other nightmare creatures better than they do actual great ones.

The only creatures which give the unique "nightmare slain" message are Mergo's Wetnurse, the Moon Presence and the spirit left behind when the Orphan of Kos dies.

Whether death is not the end for Kos is speculation: we do not hear anything from it after its death, and see only Micolash praying to it (and receiving no answer).

I think the general theme is somewhat implied though.

The orphan of kos "returns to the ocean" after being slain (as we see its essence floating out to sea). As the deep sea rune says, "Great volumes of water serve as a bulwark guarding sleep, and an augur of the eldritch Truth." Death is kind of implied to be a transition here, perhaps even a kind of sleep, but it's not clear if it's actually an end in the sense we would understand it.

The idea of death being analogous to sleep is also incredibly Lovecraftian, and well, we're talking about the bit of the game that is literally a homage to The Shadow Over Innsmouth.

Most such people are actually ordinary citizens, though, not Hunters-- citizens unlikely to be particularly insightful at all.

I don't know. Most ordinary citizens seem completely gone, mostly devolved into beasts but we do find the occasional brainsucker in Yahrnam too, suggesting that a few became kin. By the blood moon phase, practically every house in NPC yields "no response". The handful of survivors we encounter generally either have some reason to have insight (Adella was abducted by the school of Mensis, Arianna and "Iosefka" are impregnated by a great one) or have incredibly closed minds (the old woman is blitzed on sedatives, the skeptical man is skeptical). Maybe the latter just aren't big users of the old blood. I admit it's all speculation though.

 

[Silvanus]

I don't think anyone has any true understanding of what they are communing with. That's kind of the point. I would say if anyone has a chance of being close though, I'd put more trust in the insane and corrupt than in reasonable characters.

I wouldn't. Even if you would, though, you did single out Micolash as someone who seems to know what's going on, which I'd heavily dispute. Quite aside from madness, I'd regard him as an obsessive cultist, and perhaps even an idiot.

What trustworthy information do we gain from him? And how do the hamlet's citizens seem knowledgeable?

Ebrietas is special in this regard though. She is specifically the one who was left behind or abandoned, presumably when the great ones ascended to the nightmare. Killing her also gives the typical "prey slaughtered" message. It may have something to do with the fact that she is perhaps a celestial child. She has a slight resemblance to the other celestial children. Then again, Mergo is also a celestial child in a sense so it doesn't completely hold up, but it's not clear if Mergo was ever actually born. Encountering Mergo resulted in the brains of the school of Mensis being "stillborn", for example, which is an odd choice of words and implies Mergo himself might have been stillborn, and thus "lost" like the other children of great ones.

The Amygdala are very, very different to the other great ones we encounter, in that they are a roughly homogenous class of beings rather than unique creatures like the moon presence, mergo, kos, oedon, mergo's wetnurse and even ebreitas. In fact, other than the one we fight in the nightmare they all appear exactly the same. It seems more likely that they are simply powerful nightmare creatures, since they fit the pattern of other nightmare creatures better than they do actual great ones.

The only creatures which give the unique "nightmare slain" message are Mergo's Wetnurse, the Moon Presence and the spirit left behind when the Orphan of Kos dies.

The "nightmare slain" message occurs only within the Nightmare (or the Dream), and demonstrably does not appear for every Great One. It's not a reliable metric.

Great Ones exist outside the Nightmare, and no indications are given that real-world deaths are just avoided by continued existence in the Nightmare. In fact, we see Kos dead within the Nightmare, even.

I think the general theme is somewhat implied though.

The orphan of kos "returns to the ocean" after being slain (as we see its essence floating out to sea). As the deep sea rune says, "Great volumes of water serve as a bulwark guarding sleep, and an augur of the eldritch Truth." Death is kind of implied to be a transition here, perhaps even a kind of sleep, but it's not clear if it's actually an end in the sense we would understand it.

The idea of death being analogous to sleep is also incredibly Lovecraftian, and well, we're talking about the bit of the game that is literally a homage to The Shadow Over Innsmouth.

Indeed. In fact, this is something I thought of bringing up before: the denizens of Innsmouth are not knowledgeable, as you characterised the hamlet's residents. They are victims, pure and simple, mad and tragic.

I don't know. Most ordinary citizens seem completely gone, mostly devolved into beasts but we do find the occasional brainsucker in Yahrnam too, suggesting that a few became kin. By the blood moon phase, practically every house in NPC yields "no response". The handful of survivors we encounter generally either have some reason to have insight (Adella was abducted by the school of Mensis, Arianna and "Iosefka" are impregnated by a great one) or have incredibly closed minds (the old woman is blitzed on sedatives, the skeptical man is skeptical). Maybe the latter just aren't big users of the old blood. I admit it's all speculation though.

Still, the majority of non-transformed people we encounter are citizens, not Hunters. Quite a few, in fact, if we save them at the Chapel. This simply doesn't square with the notion that use of both blood and insight is the key.

 

[Dansen]

See I hope not. To me, leaving it all vague and open to interpretation is lazy story-writing. In fact, its a lack of story-writing.

Just throw a bunch of weird squid monsters at the player, have a spooky lady say 'The world is not enough' and then a cat moos, and then we the player are left to try to understand what the hell is going on.

Just because it's vague and largely left open to interpretation, doesn't mean it's just random ideas thrown at the wall. There's werewolves and aliens in Bloodborne, and even without a direct explanation the game manages to make these two different concepts work together within the world.

Most Souls fans make a big deal about reading item discriptions, and how the story is told through that. But I never bothered doing that with any of the games I played, and I still found these settings facinating. And that's mainly what the "writing" seems to be in service of; creating a setting that feels like it has a lot of history, but that you can never truly parse. This in turn leaves you with a sense of unease, that you can never fully understand these worlds.

I ain't saying its not fascinating. I love it! I find the entire thing to be enthralling.
And I don't need to be led by the nose Final Fantasy style where everything is explained in minutes long dialogue trees every few seconds.
But there has to be a limit on I guess...player driven plot revelations. Like we shouldn't have to go into the audio files of the game to find hidden dialogue or sound files that hint at what the Orphan of Kos is, or wild assumptions of alien civil wars based on the fact the tentacle monster is an old one, and the daughter of the cosmos is also an old one, and nothing else.
Its that I don't like. When we're given A and B, and expected to get to Z, especially in a world where madness, misinterpretations, mistranslations and lying NPCs are involved.

FromSoft doesn't make traditional narratives. The "stories" of their games are more akin to a collection of short myths/legend/fables. A lot of facts are obfuscated and murky similar to how a folk tale has different interpretations. The characters and bosses are the pantheon of their worlds, with each of them having a small story in a larger world. As Shinji said, FromSoft does this in service of world building.

There is no "real" meaning behind most of the stories except what you make of them. I enjoy this as FromSoft provides just enough details for you to make your own narrative. I had a lot of fun debating lore theories with people on the wiki for the first game. It let you explore the setting in a way that is much more organic than other rpgs. That being said I would hate it if this style of story telling became a large subgenre as their are a lot of hackneyed indie devs out their that don't understand the craft(Not saying FromSoft is the first/best at this type of story telling, they are just one of the best big budget examples of it).

 

[Terminal Blue]

I wouldn't. Even if you would, though, you did single out Micolash as someone who seems to know what's going on, which I'd heavily dispute. Quite aside from madness, I'd regard him as an obsessive cultist, and perhaps even an idiot.

Sure. But again, why would an idiot not know what's going on?

In English, Rom is the "vacuous spider", in Japanese, as mentioned, the phrasing is a bit more pejorative. Master Willem, similarly, seems reduced to an almost vegetative state unable to even speak but is still able to point to the lake, indicating to you where Rom is. High insight, and therefore knowledge of the true nature of reality, doesn't necessarily make you smart, it might well turn people into idiots.

What trustworthy information do we gain from him? And how do the hamlet's citizens seem knowledgeable?

Well, they've had direct contact with otherworldly forces. They are deformed and seemingly mad, indicating their bodies and, more importantly, their minds have been affected in some way by those forces.

The "nightmare slain" message occurs only within the Nightmare (or the Dream), and demonstrably does not appear for every Great One. It's not a reliable metric.

Of the beings which are confirmed to be great ones (as opposed to just oversized kin or nightmare monsters) the only one it doesn't appear for is Ebreitas, who was abandoned in the physical world. In fact, again, we can't even be sure if Ebreitas is actually a real great one, or whether failing to ascend means she could have been but somehow failed to become a true great one, remaining trapped in a single dimension. Also, if the Amygdala is a great one, then the rule that it only applies in the nightmare also doesn't make sense because we kill it in the nightmare yet don't get the message.

For the most part though, we know that the great ones are beings who used to be physical in some way, but transcended, becoming multi-dimensional beings. We know that killing them in one dimension doesn't necessarily kill them in others. Thus, we can never really be sure what death means to such a being.

Great Ones exist outside the Nightmare, and no indications are given that real-world deaths are just avoided by continued existence in the Nightmare.

Again, Micolash is dead in the real world, along with the entire school of Mensis, and yet exists in the nightmare.

In fact, we see Kos dead within the Nightmare, even.

Within a nightmare.

Again, this is what I'm getting at. The nightmare we encounter all seems to be connected in some way. We see the distant masts of the fishing hamlet ships from the nightmare frontier, for example. Perhaps it isn't the only nightmare, or perhaps there are other levels beneath the "endless sea" to which the child of kos returned. Again, it's speculation with no hard evidence, but I wouldn't make any assumptions about how death works for a multi-dimensional being.

Indeed. In fact, this is something I thought of bringing up before: the denizens of Innsmouth are not knowledgeable, as you characterised the hamlet's residents.

They are still more so than literally anyone else save the deep ones themselves, and the inhabitants dwellers effectively are the deep ones in this reference, they've fully transformed into fish people.

Still, the majority of non-transformed people we encounter are citizens, not Hunters.

Not by very much though, and why would hunters necessarily have more insight than citizens? The people who would like have actually cultivated insight, in Yharnam at least, are the choir (who are implied to have transformed into the aforementioned brainsuckers, rather than beasts) and the school of mensis, who are dead and/or trapped in the nightmare.

 

[Silvanus]

Sure. But again, why would an idiot not know what's going on?

In English, Rom is the "vacuous spider", in Japanese, as mentioned, the phrasing is a bit more pejorative. Master Willem, similarly, seems reduced to an almost vegetative state unable to even speak but is still able to point to the lake, indicating to you where Rom is. High insight, and therefore knowledge of the true nature of reality, doesn't necessarily make you smart, it might well turn people into idiots.

Right. Still no reason to trust what these slavering maniacs are spouting.

Well, they've had direct contact with otherworldly forces. They are deformed and seemingly mad, indicating their bodies and, more importantly, their minds have been affected in some way by those forces.

Still no reason to afford them trust, or confidence. We encounter quite a few people whose minds and bodies have been twisted by interaction with the Great Ones, and they mostly don't offer anything useful or trustworthy. I'm really unsure why you're affording this greater respect to the denizens of the fishing hamlet, or to Micolash. They give you no reason whatsoever.

Of the beings which are confirmed to be great ones (as opposed to just oversized kin or nightmare monsters) the only one it doesn't appear for is Ebreitas, who was abandoned in the physical world. In fact, again, we can't even be sure if Ebreitas is actually a real great one, or whether failing to ascend means she could have been but somehow failed to become a true great one, remaining trapped in a single dimension. Also, if the Amygdala is a great one, then the rule that it only applies in the nightmare also doesn't make sense because we kill it in the nightmare yet don't get the message.

For the most part though, we know that the great ones are beings who used to be physical in some way, but transcended, becoming multi-dimensional beings. We know that killing them in one dimension doesn't necessarily kill them in others. Thus, we can never really be sure what death means to such a being.

Firstly, to clarify: I didn't say it always appears in the Nightmare, and I don't believe that to be the case. I said it only appears in the Nightmare or the Dream. It doesn't always do so.

Secondly, Ebrietas is not the only one. No such message appears for the Brain of Mensis, confirmed to be a Great One in-game.

Thirdly, we do not know that the Great Ones "used to be physical [...] but transcended". I don't believe that at all. Some exist in the physical world, and some in the Nightmare Realms, but some of those Nightmare Realms are artificial (and perhaps all of them). I believe that Great Ones can exist perfectly well enough in the waking world.

Players of Bloodborne are far too willing to be convinced by speculation. What is made certain by the game is actually exceptionally sparse, and exceptionally vague.

Again, Micolash is dead in the real world, along with the entire school of Mensis, and yet exists in the nightmare.

Micolash is not a Great One. And, that aside, what is true for one being is not true for another.

We're not even sure whether the beings we encounter in the Nightmare realms are truly their consciousnesses, or whether they are mere reflections, or echoes, or representations (like the skeletons of Ludwig's victims, which live in the Nightmare, but are highly unlikely to have ever been real).

Within a nightmare.

Again, this is what I'm getting at. The nightmare we encounter all seems to be connected in some way. We see the distant masts of the fishing hamlet ships from the nightmare frontier, for example. Perhaps it isn't the only nightmare, or perhaps there are other levels beneath the "endless sea" to which the child of kos returned. Again, it's speculation with no hard evidence, but I wouldn't make any assumptions about how death works for a multi-dimensional being.

Neither would I! You're the one here making a rather large leap in stating that death functions in a drastically different way for Kos. Without direct evidence, we make no such assumptions.

Not by very much though, and why would hunters necessarily have more insight than citizens? The people who would like have actually cultivated insight, in Yharnam at least, are the choir (who are implied to have transformed into the aforementioned brainsuckers, rather than beasts) and the school of mensis, who are dead and/or trapped in the nightmare.

The Hunters are those who have encountered the horrifying creatures of the beast plague and the Kin (which gives insight), and are those who have travelled to the Dream in the cases of Djura and Eileen at least (which also gives insight). They are the metaphorical "children" of Byrgenwerth, which is also characterised by its insight. They almost certainly have higher-than-average understanding.

The fact remains that there's no evidence at all that people who take both blood and insight-- but in "moderation"-- can avoid the affects of both. This is never established, and the game never said those who have avoided mutation have done so by such a means, and they're very unlikely to have any meaningful insight whatsoever.

 

[Silentpony_v1legacy]

Gotta say, reading all this insight (no pun) into the lore makes it a bit disappointing it?s merely a work of fiction. It?d be a hell of a thing to experience, even in a Westworld kind of way if nothing else. But then again at the same time, the sense of intrigue and wonder would be lost.

 

[Terminal Blue]

Right. Still no reason to trust what these slavering maniacs are spouting.

There's no reason to trust what any character in the game says or does.

Still, the school of Mensis might seem like crazy fanatics, but they alone nearly succeeded in the goal all the successor groups of Byrgenwerth set for themselves. They managed to transcend their physical forms and live on in the nightmare. It turned out that was a bad idea both for themselves and for everyone else, but they still did it.

Again, there's literally no reason to believe that Micolash is somehow less knowledgeable or less reliable than other characters. Willem is a drooling vegetable, Lawrence is a hideously mutated beast (and also dead), Gehrman is trapped playing surrogate child to the moon presence. Which of the people who might actually know anything about what's going on are reliable? Which of them actually managed to achieve anything with their knowledge?

Multiple characters have dialogue which imply that beasthood and insight are opposed. It's built into the very mechanics of the game itself, and yet we're sitting here quibbling because apparently one of those characters coming off as a bit kooky (as opposed to everyone else, who is doing just fine) somehow means we can't believe it.

Ebrietas is not the only one. No such message appears for the Brain of Mensis, confirmed to be a Great One in-game.

..it's also "rotten", whatever that means. I think we can theorise that whatever it is, something is very wrong with it.

Thirdly, we do not know that the Great Ones "used to be physical [...] but transcended". I don't believe that at all. Some exist in the physical world, and some in the Nightmare Realms, but some of those Nightmare Realms are artificial (and perhaps all of them). I believe that Great Ones can exist perfectly well enough in the waking world.

Together with the left behind Great One, they look to the skies, in search of astral signs, that may lead them to the rediscovery of true greatness.

Remnant of the eldritch Truth encountered at Byrgenwerth. Use phantasms, the invertebrates known to be the augurs of the Great Ones, to partially summon abandoned Ebrietas.

It does seem very much implied that Ebrietas is exceptional, and what's exceptional about her is that she was left behind or abandoned by the others. It certainly does suggest that the others, you know, went somewhere.

Players of Bloodborne are far too willing to be convinced by speculation.

And why not? All the Soulsborne games have been like this.. the story is something you have to piece together, and yeah, that means we're all probably wrong with our little pet theories and speculations, but that's sort of intentional. It's not like Elder Scrolls, which has an incredibly detailed and ridiculous cosmology and philosophical themes which literally never appear in game, these questions are integral to the plot and in trying to answer them we're doing something the game and its creators intended us to do.

Micolash is not a Great One.

Why not? What is a Great One?

See, if you genuinely avoid speculation and make no assumptions, there's no coherent, in-game definition for what a Great One even is, (other than a few cryptic clues like that they each lose their children) which may indeed be the point. Perhaps it's just a term people in this universe came up with for a bunch of completely unrelated things they don't understand.

Neither would I!

Well, this line of thought began because you used Kos being dead as an example of why Micolash was an unreliable character and one whom we should assume is not speaking truthfully about something unrelated, so that was an assumption.

The Hunters are those who have encountered the horrifying creatures of the beast plague and the Kin (which gives insight), and are those who have travelled to the Dream in the cases of Djura and Eileen at least (which also gives insight). They are the metaphorical "children" of Byrgenwerth, which is also characterised by its insight. They almost certainly have higher-than-average understanding.

Hunters, for the most part, seem to be hunters of the church, who are essentially priests with basic medical skills who have access to the old blood and aid the people of Yharnam during the hunt.

They're the "children" of Byrgenwerth only in the sense that all of the major factions are. The school of mensis, the choir, the healing church, the (now defunct) hunters of the workshop, even the wierd little groups which are only mentioned in item descriptions like the powder kegs. Vicar Amelia is in the hunters nightmare after her death, for example, and there's no evidence she was ever a hunter, just a cleric of the healing church.

Again, Eileen and Djura have both dreamed. We can assume they have high insight because they've probably gone through roughly the same path we go through in the game, and may even have killed a Great One in their own dreams.

The fact remains that there's no evidence at all that people who take both blood and insight-- but in "moderation"-- can avoid the affects of both.

That's not really what I said.

What I said was that the two seem to be in opposition, and that an excess of one or the other seems to be bad (at least for NPCs). The latter is indeed purely speculative, but the former is alluded to multiple times by multiple characters and is indeed part of the game's mechanics.

 

[bastardofmelbourne]

snip

My opinion of Bloodborne is that it has an excellent plot that it refuses to actually tell you anything about.

A friend said that he preferred to have stories told in scattered, out-of-context breadcrumbs than to have them shoved down his throat. But I'm like, there has to be a happy medium between "scattered, out-of-context breadcrumbs" and "shoves a loaf of bread down your throat." Like, a tasty plot sandwich, maybe?

 

[Silentpony_v1legacy]

snip

My opinion of Bloodborne is that it has an excellent plot that it refuses to actually tell you anything about.

A friend said that he preferred to have stories told in scattered, out-of-context breadcrumbs than to have them shoved down his throat. But I'm like, there has to be a happy medium between "scattered, out-of-context breadcrumbs" and "shoves a loaf of bread down your throat." Like, a tasty plot sandwich, maybe?

I think my problem with Bloodborne is that the breadcrumbs as it were as so...random. So unconnected that any plot has to be assumed rather than known.
Like a good breadcrumb trail would be a diary of a princess fearing a sorcerer will invade her kingdom, a destroyed castle filled with cursed skeletons, a final boss of a skeleton sorcerer with knife in his neck, and the princess in a half-dead cursed state barricaded in a room just beyond the boss. We can assume sorcerer invaded, cursed people, tried to curse the princess and she got a lucky knife in and it cursed the Sorcerer. Good! Great!

In Bloodborne your breadcrumbs are a large knife, a golden rabbit named Macaroni, half a ham sandwich and the Kraken, and we're just expected to put them in the order they make sense, and it may or may not involve deleted content found in the game files, and you'll never really know until you go through everything, and even then a lot of it is mistranslated.

 

[Silvanus]

There's no reason to trust what any character in the game says or does.

Still, the school of Mensis might seem like crazy fanatics, but they alone nearly succeeded in the goal all the successor groups of Byrgenwerth set for themselves. They managed to transcend their physical forms and live on in the nightmare. It turned out that was a bad idea both for themselves and for everyone else, but they still did it.

Again, there's literally no reason to believe that Micolash is somehow less knowledgeable or less reliable than other characters. Willem is a drooling vegetable, Lawrence is a hideously mutated beast (and also dead), Gehrman is trapped playing surrogate child to the moon presence. Which of the people who might actually know anything about what's going on are reliable? Which of them actually managed to achieve anything with their knowledge?

Multiple characters have dialogue which imply that beasthood and insight are opposed. It's built into the very mechanics of the game itself, and yet we're sitting here quibbling because apparently one of those characters coming off as a bit kooky (as opposed to everyone else, who is doing just fine) somehow means we can't believe it.

Why is it relevant that all of the other characters are also untrustworthy? I'm not advocating that we trust them over Micolash. I'm merely saying that we don't trust Micolash.

I'm really at a bit of a loss as to what valuable, trustworthy information you reckon we gain from him. What is it?

..it's also "rotten", whatever that means. I think we can theorise that whatever it is, something is very wrong with it.

So what? Something is seriously wrong with the Orphan of Kos, too.

We can theorise whatever we want. But if we use those theories to then explain away every exception that goes against our other theories, then we're basing theories on theories.

It's all so flimsy.

Together with the left behind Great One, they look to the skies, in search of astral signs, that may lead them to the rediscovery of true greatness.

Remnant of the eldritch Truth encountered at Byrgenwerth. Use phantasms, the invertebrates known to be the augurs of the Great Ones, to partially summon abandoned Ebrietas.

It does seem very much implied that Ebrietas is exceptional, and what's exceptional about her is that she was left behind or abandoned by the others. It certainly does suggest that the others, you know, went somewhere.

Yes, I know. That doesn't necessarily mean they all went to the Nightmare, since we see numerous Great Ones still in the waking world.

And why not? All the Soulsborne games have been like this.. the story is something you have to piece together, and yeah, that means we're all probably wrong with our little pet theories and speculations, but that's sort of intentional. It's not like Elder Scrolls, which has an incredibly detailed and ridiculous cosmology and philosophical themes which literally never appear in game, these questions are integral to the plot and in trying to answer them we're doing something the game and its creators intended us to do.

Speculation is something they intended for us to do, yes. My point is that Addendum_Forthcoming and yourself both do not seem to acknowledge that these pet theories are "probably wrong"; you both seem strongly convinced of their truth.

Why not? What is a Great One?

See, if you genuinely avoid speculation and make no assumptions, there's no coherent, in-game definition for what a Great One even is, (other than a few cryptic clues like that they each lose their children) which may indeed be the point. Perhaps it's just a term people in this universe came up with for a bunch of completely unrelated things they don't understand.

It's a term which refers to a number of ancient, eldritch creatures, many of them with far-reaching or supernatural powers, some of which appear to be trans-dimensional. The term does not have a specific meaning, but there's no indication whatsoever that it applies to random humans we meet in-game. Just because the meaning is not solidly set in stone doesn't mean we can just apply it however we want.

Well, this line of thought began because you used Kos being dead as an example of why Micolash was an unreliable character and one whom we should assume is not speaking truthfully about something unrelated, so that was an assumption.

It was taking the information in-game as presented, as best we can. Some assumptions are unavoidable: we assume, for instance, that the entirety of the game does not take place in Luigi's mind.

The assumption that the death of Kos is not actually a massive illusion is the most basic kind of assumption: the kind that goes no further than the information presented. The assumption that the death of Kos is a massive illusion, even though the game never gives you any clues in that direction, and that as a result the murderous cultist is a reliable narrator, is the other kind of assumption: the kind that requires immense amounts of information that is never presented to us.

Hunters, for the most part, seem to be hunters of the church, who are essentially priests with basic medical skills who have access to the old blood and aid the people of Yharnam during the hunt.

They're the "children" of Byrgenwerth only in the sense that all of the major factions are. The school of mensis, the choir, the healing church, the (now defunct) hunters of the workshop, even the wierd little groups which are only mentioned in item descriptions like the powder kegs. Vicar Amelia is in the hunters nightmare after her death, for example, and there's no evidence she was ever a hunter, just a cleric of the healing church.

Again, Eileen and Djura have both dreamed. We can assume they have high insight because they've probably gone through roughly the same path we go through in the game, and may even have killed a Great One in their own dreams.

The game shows you directly-- through your own actions-- how the Hunter's profession leads the Hunter to insight. Encountering beasts and killing them, which is the most basic function of the Hunter, affords you insight.

That's not really what I said.

What I said was that the two seem to be in opposition, and that an excess of one or the other seems to be bad (at least for NPCs). The latter is indeed purely speculative, but the former is alluded to multiple times by multiple characters and is indeed part of the game's mechanics.

It's what you said here [http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/9.1042634-Can-someone-explain-the-good-Bloodborne-ending-to-me?page=2#24217209]:

The message I took away, and again pure speculation, is that both the Healing Church and the Byrgenwerth scholars are right and both of them are wrong. The characters who seem to be most okay are those who would have a moderate amount of both blood and insight.

This is what I've been arguing against. I said that almost nobody is "okay", and you widened that to those who have not transformed into beasts or kin. I responded that most untransformed people are ordinary citizens, with no indication given at all that they have a "moderate amount of [...] insight".

The fact that the two are in opposition was never in dispute; I already said as much long ago.