Can the Japanese make a bad dub?

[Bara_no_Hime]

I'm going to throw in again with a comment about frustrating dubs.

Revolutionary Girl Utena. My very favorite anime ever.

The English voice actress for Utena is great - she gets the character and does a great job with her more subtle moments.

The English voice actress for Anthy is terrible - she sounds like she's voicing the most passive female Dalek ever. "I don't know what you mean. Miss Utena." If you listen to the Japanese version, the actress sounds pleasant but normal - sort of like someone pretending to be nice and doing a good job of it. Also, at key moments in the plot, the Japanese voice actress will stop "pretending" and actually emote like a normal person. The American VA keeps on in robot mono-tone no matter the situation. I'd put that down to bad directing, but none of the other characters have that problem.

The rest of the cast varies between okay and really good (Crispin Freeman topping the cast with a wonderful performance), with the one glaring exception of Arisagawa Juri. She just sounds terrible - she was awful even without hearing the Japanese version. Angry whine is about the best way I can describe it. Of course, when you do listen to the Japanese version, which is voiced by one of best, most experienced women in that field in Japan, the difference becomes even more glaring. I can blame some of this on the director, who missed the subtly of Juri's character entirely (even the subtitles are bad - and this I know from reading other people's better translations of the script) but some of it is the fact that the actress just delivers her lines badly.

And this is a real tragedy, since the rest of the cast was pretty good, particularly when the extra cast members join in season 2. Shiori is voiced by Lisa Ortiz, my very favorite American voice actress - which is a real shame, since Shiori and Juri are (almost) always in scenes together, so it's like one ear is being pleasured by Stephen Fry while the other is being assaulted by Yahtzee's sand-paper condom metaphor.

Actually, Shiori is an example of a character being better Dubbed. The Japanese VA got that Shiori was a *****, and that was about it; whereas Lisa Ortiz played Shiori as tragically conflicted - and her character makes more sense, and Shiori becomes a complex human struggling with her sexual identity. She's still a *****, but now she's a tragic *****. It all comes down to the inflections - in this case, the Japanese VA didn't have the skill, but the English VA did.

Anywho, I've rambled long enough.

 

[Vykrel]

ya, i think its clear the English dub (and music for that matter) are both infinitely better in this particular case.

the Japanese creators sure know how to make it LOOK badass, but we know how to make it SOUND badass too.

 

[Technicolor]

I prefer the dub of DBZ simply because that's what I grew up watching.

But both can be quite ridiculous sounding. I prefer English dubs for action and the original Japanese for comedy or romance simply because I've never seen a comedic or cutesy anime with a good English dub. The Japanese voices just sound cuter to me :3

However...

some fantastic dubs (Cowboy Bebop, FLCL).

I get Bebop but... why FLCL? Maybe it's just me but I found the English dub to be quite irritating. That could be because I watched the subbed version first but I only watched it for the first time about a month ago >.>

Its subjective of course, but its like your preference to dubs in action shows, FLCL has so much deranged animation on the screen, I really can't be bothered by the subs at the bottom.

Also I feel like the actors sound crazier when I know what they are saying, as they say it.

 

[KaosuHamoni]

Most subs are better. They just sound... Right?

However, there are series where the Dub is well done, for example, I quite like the Spice & Wolf dub, even though I prefer the subs in that one, however I watched Baccano! dubbed, because it fit the 1940's gangster style better. That, and the voice acting for the Baccano! Dub were masterfully done. Way better than the original Japanese voices.

 

[Technicolor]

Oh Dragonball Z...

"My god, he's so powerful!"

"No...just really, really constipated."

And hairy, don't forget hairy!
And blond.

And don't forget incapable of doing anything related to a plot, in under 3 episodes

Fun fact, the farther you get in the manga, the longer time does it take for anyone to do anything plot related. The first 2 books had them travel across the world to get 7 dragonballs, when he was going to battle Cell later in the series he needed at least a whole book on one fight. That's why I don't watch the anime... I can see the pictures faster than what the animation is capable of showing.

I agree. Today I wouldn't recommend DBZ to anyone under 11 years old, becuase of ridiculous filler. However the recent Dragon Ball Kai, has remedied this issue, it being DBZ without filler. For anyone wondering about the influence of this series, but unwilling to sit through 291 episodes, they have an alternative, which in my opinion is better than the original.

 

[Sacman]

Unless someone actually understands Japanese, and all the inflections used in the language, they are completely talking out of their arse if they jump on the whole

"omg! The original Japanese is so much betterah!"

Those people tend to be weeaboos.

Exactly my thoughts...

 

[Denamic]

Dubs are inherently inferior.
Dubs have to say the same things in a different language.
And not only do many things not translate well, they have to say them in the same amount of time as the original.
In other words, where the original voices can adjust the video for the lines, dubs have to adjust the lines for the video.
On top of that, dubs often sound awkward and sometimes entirely wrong.
In rare cases, the dubs are tolerable and sometimes even superior, but that's extraordinarily rare.
Only example I can even think of is Kingdom Hearts.

 

[game-lover]

Part of dubbing isn't just to put it in another language. It's to also make it pleasing for another audience.

Goku is indeed immature but there's no reason his voice has to sound like he's on helium in order to show that fact about him. If the VA is good, he can show off all that youth and naivete while using a deep voice. Especially since a lot of teen males either already have or should be having their voices drop considerably in pitch. Even more considering that just because he hasn't matured emotionally and mentally, doesn't mean puberty didn't stop so biologically, his voice should be deep at least in the average sense.

So no, I don't think they absolutely have to replicate the tone and pitch of the original work. Besides, some voices work better only for the language. Take Hitsugaya from Bleach. I sincerely doubt there is anyone who can take a young voice like that in English and make it sound as ridiculously mature as Hitsugaya is.

 

[Miss_Niktea]

however I watched Baccano! dubbed, because it fit the 1940's gangster style better. That, and the voice acting for the Baccano! Dub were masterfully done.

Yey! That's exactly what I wanted to say!

But honestly I never got into any of those sub/dub debates. I generally watch anime with English subs. But then i'm not native english speaker so it's just easier for me to read text than to listen to it =='.
Also I don't get the "hard to follow action sequences" argument... But it's maybe because most things i watch in TV is subbed so I stopped noticing it.

On the other hand I kinda understand why some people prefer dubs. And in animation it's kinda justify.
And when you are used to one voice, the other will always sound weird^^.

 

[SemiHumanTarget]

I speak Japanese and I will be the first to say the voice acting in the original Japanese anything is, quite frankly, not that great. The problem is Japanese actors/voice actors take their cues from Kabuki plays, which are over the top and melodramatic by nature. This happens not only in anime, but in movies and TV shows, even segments on the news that are supposed to be "humorous". What you end up getting is someone acting not as though you are watching them from a few feet away, but as though you are watching them from the back row of a crowded concert hall.

Comparatively speaking though, subtitles beat out dubs every time if you can't speak Japanese because a) you'd never know the voice acting was bad, and b) the translator gets more freedom with how to translate each sentence, because s/he isn't restricted by the precise timing required for a dub.

 

[nicholaxxx]

the only reason why the Japanese may sound better than the English dub is because (unless you speak fluent Japanese) we can't tell if the VA is doing a terrible job, so when we hear an English VA doing a bad job one would say "man, the Japanese dub is so much better!"

this principle works both ways, by the way...

 

[vapidaphid]

I watch dubs on all anime, because I don't want to have to read a novel while watching the television. Dubs aren't inferior, they're different. There's a different culture here in America, and with it comes a different set of expectations. Be they imagined, true, or false. What works in Japan as dialog, might not necessarily work in America.

But there will always be people who will yell at the top of their lungs that subtitles are better (or the original Japanese), and there are the same who will argue as fervently for English dubs. It's all a matter of preference really.

Me, I'm lazy. Give me dubs.

 

[AyreonMaiden]

Yeah, they can make bad calls, just like any other director, artist, auteur, etc. Glorious Nippon isn't above making shit decisions, just like how it's possible that Guillermo del Toro might pick shitty actors for his movies in my eyes. Being foreign doesn't exempt them.

That's why I watch what sounds good to me, regardless of what the artist's 'vision' is. That whole 'art' and 'integrity to the original artist's vision' crap is so stupid to me. It's entirely possible that they pick shitty seiyuu in my ears and so no, I'm not gonna deal with it if I have the option not to.

 

[ReaperzXIII]

I don't speak Japanese but the only reason I prefer the Japanese version with subs to the English version is because frankly some of the voices for the characters piss me off to endless degrees.

 

[pyramid head grape]

4KIDs are my number one enemy for bad dubs.

 

[BlueMage]

No, I'm pretty sure English-dub Goku sounds far more like he's (quite accurately) about to unleash unholy ass-smiting compared to Japanese-dub Goku.

 

[[Kira Must Die]]

It's strange. Japanese voice acting is usually great, while Japanese live-action acting usually sucks.

Yes, there are some bad Japanese voice work. I think I first noticed it when I watched Eiken. That anime was already shit to begin with, but the dub (Both Japanese and English) were terrible.

But yeah, it's less noticeable if you don't know Japanese, but I mostly notice this in really terrible animes.

Really terrible animes...

 

[IvoryTowerGamer]

I was just saying that I really prefer it in dub, and cannot fathom why someone would take a subbed version, where you have to avert your eyes from the characters and animation to quickly read a line on the bottom of the screen. I would much, much rather focus on the onscreen actions and characters, and hear their voices in my own language. I don't see how this is bad in any way, shape or form - if the Japanese want to watch Law and Order, don't they watch it in Japanese?

As someone who can understand both English and Japanese, I can say the sub translation is usually closer. The translators just have a little more freedom when working with subs because they don't have to try and match what's being said to the character's mouths.

Having said that, no, there's nothing wrong with preferring a dub especially for the reason you listed above. Just don't complain when it's not nearly as accurate as the subbed version, because dubs by their very nature won't be. They aren't really intended for hardcore fans of the series so much as general audiences.

While I don't disagree that I'm not the target of the dubs and I shouldn't be watching them in the first place (as I am not), you need to realize that I am affected by the existence of dubs just the same.


When people regard something I care for, I am affected by their views on it. When people who know nothing dare to speak about what fits Goku and what doesn't, speak as though they know what they're talking about when in fact they have no clue, I am utterly annoyed by it so I complain. Is that so hard to understand?

Yeah, it's a bit elitist, but it is easy to understand. I have a aneurysm and throw a fit every time someone says "Warhammer totally ripped off Blizzard!"

Well, I guess that's what differentiates an enthusiast from an elitist. Assuming the other person isn't being confrontational like in the Warhammer example, why do you need to bite their head off over it?

Ignorance bugs me but I never go "ha, I know this so I'm better than you!", I never care about myself in any of this, I just care for the item of my fascination and how it is being represented, perceived and described, that's what all this is about.

Well if that's true then you really should be fine with the change to Goku's voice because otherwise the Western perception of Goku would be much more negative.

 

[Dreiko_v1legacy]

I was just saying that I really prefer it in dub, and cannot fathom why someone would take a subbed version, where you have to avert your eyes from the characters and animation to quickly read a line on the bottom of the screen. I would much, much rather focus on the onscreen actions and characters, and hear their voices in my own language. I don't see how this is bad in any way, shape or form - if the Japanese want to watch Law and Order, don't they watch it in Japanese?

As someone who can understand both English and Japanese, I can say the sub translation is usually closer. The translators just have a little more freedom when working with subs because they don't have to try and match what's being said to the character's mouths.

Having said that, no, there's nothing wrong with preferring a dub especially for the reason you listed above. Just don't complain when it's not nearly as accurate as the subbed version, because dubs by their very nature won't be. They aren't really intended for hardcore fans of the series so much as general audiences.

While I don't disagree that I'm not the target of the dubs and I shouldn't be watching them in the first place (as I am not), you need to realize that I am affected by the existence of dubs just the same.


When people regard something I care for, I am affected by their views on it. When people who know nothing dare to speak about what fits Goku and what doesn't, speak as though they know what they're talking about when in fact they have no clue, I am utterly annoyed by it so I complain. Is that so hard to understand?

Yeah, it's a bit elitist, but it is easy to understand. I have a aneurysm and throw a fit every time someone says "Warhammer totally ripped off Blizzard!"

Well, I guess that's what differentiates an enthusiast from an elitist. Assuming the other person isn't being confrontational like in the Warhammer example, why do you need to bite their head off over it?

Ignorance bugs me but I never go "ha, I know this so I'm better than you!", I never care about myself in any of this, I just care for the item of my fascination and how it is being represented, perceived and described, that's what all this is about.

Well if that's true then you really should be fine with the change to Goku's voice because otherwise the Western perception of Goku would be much more negative.

You again don't understand. I much rather having an honestly depicted Goku be disliked than a fake Goku be liked more than the actual one...because only the honestly depicted Goku is the actual one, the other is a marketing tool, for the real thing to be out-shined by a tool for milking non-fans is preposterous and infuriating. That does more harm to the medium than it being just disliked. It's basically like having the hottest woman of your dreams in front of you, would you be turned off if other people didn't think she was beautiful? What about people from 500 years ago with totally different definitions of beauty? Cause really, that's the proper analogue for non-fans of anime having a say about their likes and dislikes regarding it.


I don't demand everyone to like anything nor did I ever say I like every original anime, all I said is that it's intrinsically superior to any dub out of the nature of what it means for something to be the original form of itself.

 

[IvoryTowerGamer]

I was just saying that I really prefer it in dub, and cannot fathom why someone would take a subbed version, where you have to avert your eyes from the characters and animation to quickly read a line on the bottom of the screen. I would much, much rather focus on the onscreen actions and characters, and hear their voices in my own language. I don't see how this is bad in any way, shape or form - if the Japanese want to watch Law and Order, don't they watch it in Japanese?

As someone who can understand both English and Japanese, I can say the sub translation is usually closer. The translators just have a little more freedom when working with subs because they don't have to try and match what's being said to the character's mouths.

Having said that, no, there's nothing wrong with preferring a dub especially for the reason you listed above. Just don't complain when it's not nearly as accurate as the subbed version, because dubs by their very nature won't be. They aren't really intended for hardcore fans of the series so much as general audiences.

While I don't disagree that I'm not the target of the dubs and I shouldn't be watching them in the first place (as I am not), you need to realize that I am affected by the existence of dubs just the same.


When people regard something I care for, I am affected by their views on it. When people who know nothing dare to speak about what fits Goku and what doesn't, speak as though they know what they're talking about when in fact they have no clue, I am utterly annoyed by it so I complain. Is that so hard to understand?

Yeah, it's a bit elitist, but it is easy to understand. I have a aneurysm and throw a fit every time someone says "Warhammer totally ripped off Blizzard!"

Well, I guess that's what differentiates an enthusiast from an elitist. Assuming the other person isn't being confrontational like in the Warhammer example, why do you need to bite their head off over it?

Ignorance bugs me but I never go "ha, I know this so I'm better than you!", I never care about myself in any of this, I just care for the item of my fascination and how it is being represented, perceived and described, that's what all this is about.

Well if that's true then you really should be fine with the change to Goku's voice because otherwise the Western perception of Goku would be much more negative.

You again don't understand. I much rather having an honestly depicted Goku be disliked than a fake Goku be liked more than the actual one...because only the honestly depicted Goku is the actual one, the other is a marketing tool, for the real thing to be out-shined by a tool for milking non-fans is preposterous and infuriating. That does more harm to the medium than it being just disliked. It's basically like having the hottest woman of your dreams in front of you, would you be turned off if other people didn't think she was beautiful? What about people from 500 years ago with totally different definitions of beauty? Cause really, that's the proper analogue for non-fans of anime having a say about their likes and dislikes regarding it.


I don't demand everyone to like anything nor did I ever say I like every original anime, all I said is that it's intrinsically superior to any dub out of the nature of what it means for something to be the original form of itself.

What's the point of even making a dub then? If the only "honestly depicted" Goku is the actual one, then any dubbing will obviously be inferior in one way or another.

It all goes back to my earlier point: they aren't making these dubs for you anyway, so there's no reason to get worked up about it.