Can we discuss the problem of pretentious anime?

TheMysteriousGX

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Part 1 and 2 of Ascendance of a Bookworm is the only isekai that I've found that avoids this because the MC has to really work to get what she wants and is still denied her main goal but even that series is falling into the same problems you find in most isekai with Part 3.
I think the isekai element itself makes it more common. Like, how many of these could just be fantasy shows? Still, that's two seasons more than what usually happens.
 

Specter Von Baren

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While I see where you are coming from, not all examples are going to be 1-to-1. You can still be mass media, and still come off as pretentious. Insert certain shounen shows and certain anime that did hit mainstream. Shaman King gets up its own ass about how much humanity sucks and how they are no evil shamans, but humans. All shamans (humans who can use and see spirits/ghosts) are either "misguided" or "misunderstood", humans that aren't evil are almost always portrayed as impotent at best, or card carrying evil at worst. There is no subtlety and makes the writing come off as simple black n' white with no grey areas, or only "grey areas" for the shaman characters only. The message comes off as even more hypocritical, because shamans are "in tune with nature" generic bullshit, and the main villain we're supposed to cry and feel sorry for is a complete homicidal psychopath. This is mainly in the manga version and what I am assuming is going to be in the second anime adaption on Netflix. Which is going to be more true to the source material. Hao Asakura is an unsympathetic asshole who has killed over at least 1,000 people, human or shaman alike. It sure as hell was not for the benefit for nature, shamans, or the fucking Earth! We're supposed to feel bad for him, because he lost only three people in his entire life, but more so due to the lost of his goddamn mommy. He's caused way more pain and suffering than all of humanity put together. What worse is that Hao gets what he wants in the manga, though he does not destroy humanity. He still a petty dick, we're supposed to agree with, but most readers don't or feel the author goes overboard in trying to sympathize with him.

Naruto has almost the exact same problems with characters like Sasuke, Obito, and nearly the entire Uchiha fucking bloodline and clan. I'll just let this guy speak for my rage. Naruto gets pretty pretentious with its many broken messages. I am glad I stopped watching after the Sasuke leaves Konoha arc.

The problem with Naruto is the same problem that screws up a lot of anime which is power creep and power scaling. The theme of the series still works with the first part but gets screwed over after the timeskip because of the need for and bigger and flashier fights and higher stakes. The author needed things to get ramped but also needed to still restrain things so that not everyone is running around blowing up mountains with a glamce which then requires some special justification for why Naruto can do this stuff and others can't which then undercuts the themes of part 1.

The lesson is that power creep is a slow and insidious killer.
 
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Specter Von Baren

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I think the isekai element itself makes it more common. Like, how many of these could just be fantasy shows? Still, that's two seasons more than what usually happens.
In the case of Ascendance of a Bookworm the story can only work as an isekai or a time travel story (which has its own problems) because the crux of the story is the MC being an autistic book worm who's only desire in life is the act of reading and has reincarnated as a dirt poor child in a world where books don't exist ( technology hasn't advanced enough in this world for books or even the ability to read to be something common) and so she decides to do whatever she can to introduce reading, writing, and printing so she can have books to read.
 

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The best Isekai is Digimon. I have spoken!

El Hazard is pretty decent from what I remember. It's been too long though. Yet, it's probably better than 99% of the garbage that comes out today. Does anybody even remember the show?
 
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Dansen

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In the case of Ascendance of a Bookworm the story can only work as an isekai or a time travel story (which has its own problems) because the crux of the story is the MC being an autistic book worm who's only desire in life is the act of reading and has reincarnated as a dirt poor child in a world where books don't exist ( technology hasn't advanced enough in this world for books or even the ability to read to be something common) and so she decides to do whatever she can to introduce reading, writing, and printing so she can have books to read.
That is a cop out. Ascendance is one of the better isekais but the story doesn't need her to be from our world. You could write a fairly similar story with a girl native to that world, its just that isekais are in vouge and its an easy way to get your story noticed. I will say I at least appreciate that Ascendance of a bookworm at least looks at the morality of taking over someone else's life even if it is only cursory. So many don't acknowledge how creepy an adult taking over a child's body is. Its doubly creepy when protagonists know stuff about other people from their previous lives and use that to manipulate them.
 
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Specter Von Baren

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That is a cop out. Ascendance is one of the better isekais but the story doesn't need her to be from our world. You could write a fairly similar story with a girl native to that world, its just that isekais are in vouge and its an easy way to get your story noticed. I will say I at least appreciate that Ascendance of a bookworm at least looks at the morality of taking over someone else's life even if it is only cursory. So many don't acknowledge how creepy an adult taking over a child's body is. Its doubly creepy when protagonists know stuff about other people from their previous lives and use that to manipulate them.
How can you have a story about a person attempting to recreate something if they've never experienced it before?
 

Specter Von Baren

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You cut out the "re" part

Also, dick move on that reincarnation on several levels
I don't think you understand just how much would change from that decision. One of the biggest continuous conflicts in the story is Myne's sensibilities grinding with those of the people in that world. One of the best conflicts was in Part 2 when she was faced with the conditions of the orphanage in the church and her dealing with the practical obstacles of why the orphans aren't being taken care of, how doing something about it could result in her getting killed by nobles for threatening how things work, how the people of this world view the situation compared to a new outsider and what can or should be done and how.

Another issue with what you're saying is that by having so much of her knowledge be because she lived in our world where all these advancements have already happened, it keeps her from being this godlike mary-sue coming up with invention after invention on her own.

Another aspect is that the one of the biggest reasons Myne doesn't get killed by the nobility is because she showed up from nowhere. Even two noble characters that are ostensibly "the good guys" and have known Myne personally for a long while casually discuss whether killing her, her family, and her close associates could prevent the printing press from being further developed and it's only because it's too late for that to be an option that they don't do it.
And on and on I can go on how things would change.

And my point isn't "how dare you besmirch the great isekai subgenre!" I'm trying to explain that for this story, changing it from an isekai would fundamentally change much of the story.

There are isekai that certainly don't have to be so, Overlord is one example of an isekai that could eliminate that entire plot point and it would change relatively little and require few alterations. But AoaB is not one of them.
 

meiam

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I don't think bookworm is good, but it's pretty clear it's one of the very few isekais that really need the main character to be reincarnated since it actually has a main character use knowledge of "future" technology, unlike every other one where the MC just doesn't even bother trying to teach the local. It could, however, completely eliminate the Myne super mana angle (ie the second isekai pillar, OP main character) and this would only improve the story.
 
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Specter Von Baren

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I don't think bookworm is good, but it's pretty clear it's one of the very few isekais that really need the main character to be reincarnated since it actually has a main character use knowledge of "future" technology, unlike every other one where the MC just doesn't even bother trying to teach the local. It could, however, completely eliminate the Myne super mana angle (ie the second isekai pillar, OP main character) and this would only improve the story.
Agreed. It's part of why I feel Part 3 isn't as good as the earlier parts. Before her huge amount of mana was more of a reason as to why the nobility doesn't murder her. It gave her protection since they lack people with large amounts of mana.

Now though, the story is falling more and more into standard isekai fare of magic and such and Myne being special because of her OP powers and I felt the series was far more compelling when it was about Myne introducing concepts and inventions from our world to that one. Also I just prefer the characters from Part 1 and 2 and despise the nobility and find much of what they do to be boring.

And yeah, my biggest problem with most isekai comes up again. Too powerful, too knowledgeable, too well liked by everyone. It seems to be unavoidable for stories in this subgenre. I was enjoying 'So I'm A Spider, So What?' while it was more of a survival story filled with danger and risks but eventually it made the protagonist too powerful and everything after the great dungeon is the usual issues with isekai.
 
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There are isekai that certainly don't have to be so, Overlord is one example of an isekai that could eliminate that entire plot point and it would change relatively little and require few alterations. But AoaB is not one of them
That is my main problem with the genre. Most of these fantasy stories don't even need it. They don't need the person from our world or another world trapped into some fantasy world/our world . These stories would have been fine on their own without some person coming from out of another plane of existence or time line. Nothing against the story you're defending, but I have no interest.

Konosuba's second season I still have to finish. Other than that I won't bother with the genre. I might be watch El Hazard again, because they have both ovas & the first TV series available on Blu-ray at a cheap price. Hell, I rather just watch the original Digimon again. Give me Tamers and Frontier while you're at it as well.
 

Specter Von Baren

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That is my main problem with the genre. Most of these fantasy stories don't even need it. They don't need the person from our world or another world trapped into some fantasy world/our world . These stories would have been fine on their own without some person coming from out of another plane of existence or time line. Nothing against the story you're defending, but I have no interest.

Konosuba's second season I still have to finish. Other than that I won't bother with the genre. I might be watch El Hazard again, because they have both ovas & the first TV series available on Blu-ray at a cheap price. Hell, I rather just watch the original Digimon again. Give me Tamers and Frontier while you're at it as well.
Oh it's certainly not for everyone. AoaB is very very low action, especially in Part 1, a lot of it is about making paper and other such things. Ive only read a lot of these stories cause I wanted to see for myself how good or bad they were. Most of them I never tried to read because I could tell they were low quality and as I've said before, even the ones I liked initially have fallen into the same problems and made me fall off of them.

And my goal isn't to defend the series I'm talking about. I wanted to make a point about how not all plot elements can just be switched out for something else without it effecting the rest of the story. I am trying to become an author so this is more me having a way to talk about the finer details of writing.
 
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meiam

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And yeah, my biggest problem with most isekai comes up again. Too powerful, too knowledgeable, too well liked by everyone. It seems to be unavoidable for stories in this subgenre. I was enjoying 'So I'm A Spider, So What?' while it was more of a survival story filled with danger and risks but eventually it made the protagonist too powerful and everything after the great dungeon is the usual issues with isekai.
Spider power creep goes absolutely insane, as it goes on. The main character become literally immortal and her power just increase in massive jump which makes a mockery of the early chapter where she had to fight tooth and nail for even small increase in strength. It's disappointing cause I really liked the early part but it just becomes another Mary/Gary sue vehicle like most isekai.

As far as isekai, I did like grimgar (although the resurection aspect is so pointless the character don't remember their previous life) since the character have absolutly no super power and its more about how regular people would really struggle to become adventurer.
 
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Casual Shinji

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El Hazard is pretty decent from what I remember. It's been too long though. Yet, it's probably better than 99% of the garbage that comes out today. Does anybody even remember the show?
El Hazard never really went past its beginning it seems. Like, it transported its four characters to fantasyland and then... I don't know, nothing much happened. I can't even remember if it ever ended, as short as it was. Did the manga ever even end?
 

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El Hazard never really went past its beginning it seems. Like, it transported its four characters to fantasyland and then... I don't know, nothing much happened. I can't even remember if it ever ended, as short as it was. Did the manga ever even end?
OVA 1 and 2 had their respective endings. The first TV series is a separate continuity, and it's in its own universe a la Tenchi Universe. The second TV series, the Alternative World, is a sequel to the first TV series, and was supposed to have 26 episode. The anime performed so poorly that it got sliced down at 13 episodes, and that was it. It didn't help that the second TV series came off as a worse Tenchi clone. I did see the second TV series once after all the other ones, but I never felt the need to watch it again. Plus, the channel I watched never bothered airing the second series ever again. I didn't even know there was a manga adaption, but from what I remember about production, the anime still came first. Honestly, just watch the first two ovas, then watch the first TV series. It had its own ending that's pretty definitive and did not in on it sequel hook went from what I remember. Just stop there.
 
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