Cartoons: Then and now.

Dreadman75

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A while back I created a thread asking what had changed between cartoons of say...the 90s to the cartoons of today. Why they seemed so dumbed down and nonsensical (with a few notable exceptions, of course!)

I've done quite a bit of thinking sense then and have since come to an interesting line of thought: Are some the cartoons of the past and of today really so different? Is Ed, Edd, n' Eddy really all that different from Chowder? Are the Looney Toons all that far off from being Johnny Test?

In terms of design...yes there are HUGE differences: Flash animation is running rampant and many times not done well (looking at you Johnny Test!), and there seem to be more annoying characters than what we remember. I'm sure there are other things I forgot to mention but the differences are not what I'm getting at.

But when we go past that and come down to the formulae of these shows there are some striking similarities. (One thing to keep in mind: I am not including cartoons that are heavily story based like Young Justice, Avatar, Samurai Jack...etc, under these criteria)

Think about it for a moment:

Most cartoons nowadays have either dumb, or simple minded characters, focus mainly on slapstick or verbal humor, and jokes are often repeated ad nauseum.

How many shows does that formula remind you of? If we look at the most basic level of these cartoons they are fundamentally the same, but for some reason some are hated and some are beloved.

For example: I've seen Ed, Edd, n' Eddy get many more positive mentions than say...Flapjack. Why is that? The three main characters from both series have the same characteristics: There is a voice of reason, a voice of greed, and a voice of ignorance. Yet we have tired so much more quickly of Flapjack than the Eds.

So what exactly are the differences that make some cartoons like the Looney Toons and the Eds, more memorable or just plain better than others? Is it in how the joke is delivered? Do the setting and voice acting play a part? Are the characters just less annoying?

What are your thoughts my fellow escapists?
 

Vault101

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Sep 26, 2010
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nostalga is a powerful thing

I do think we need more shows like AVATAR the last air bender though
 

BenefitEvil

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I will second that nostalgia is a powerful thing.

I think its not so much that people are tiring of shows more quickly its just that our attention spans are shorter. We don't have so many other things vying for our attention that our patience for idiocy is smaller.

I know this isn't the popular opinion but I think loony toons are stupid. Aside from the innovation in cartooning I find them boring and unfunny. (yes I know I will get crucified for this)
 

him over there

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You watched 90's cartoons for children when you were a child. You're watching a present day cartoon for children as an adult, even without Nostalgia there's an obvious bias there.
 

Dreadman75

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him over there said:
You watched 90's cartoons for children when you were a child. You're watching a present day cartoon for children as an adult, even without Nostalgia there's an obvious bias there.
Are you saying there's something wrong with liking cartoons as an adult?

Lol, I kid, I kid, but I do see what you mean. As an adult my tastes have changed, matured and things that would have been funny to me years ago aren't that funny now. The same thing can be said of children today with Johnny Test and all those other shows as well, correct?

...But, I just can't help but feel that there is something to the older cartoons that endears them to people a bit more. I just can't put my finger on it. Maybe it is nostalgia and I'm just not seeing it, but I want to see if there are any better explanations out there before I accept that.

captcha: hold your horses. I'm really starting to think that this thing is sentient. Should we be worried?
 

DoPo

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Jan 30, 2012
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I keep being amazed by people calling Ed, Edd, and Eddy. For me, it was one of the reasons I stopped watching Cartoon Network, along with some other new shows up there (can't remember the names, though).

Also, I don't like it when people try to break down a work into a neat and simple formulas and try to claim that they aren't that different to other works. Sure, they both feature dumb characters and repeated jokes, but that doesn't mean I have to like both. It's like me pointing out that both and <food you don't like> boil down to having ingredients, flavours, and you chewing them, so in effect there isn't a difference, right? Yet for some reason one you refuse to eat, the other you don't.
 

Dreadman75

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DoPo said:
I keep being amazed by people calling Ed, Edd, and Eddy. For me, it was one of the reasons I stopped watching Cartoon Network, along with some other new shows up there (can't remember the names, though).

Also, I don't like it when people try to break down a work into a neat and simple formulas and try to claim that they aren't that different to other works. Sure, they both feature dumb characters and repeated jokes, but that doesn't mean I have to like both. It's like me pointing out that both and <food you don't like> boil down to having ingredients, flavours, and you chewing them, so in effect there isn't a difference, right? Yet for some reason one you refuse to eat, the other you don't.
Well, why didn't you like Ed, Edd, and Eddy?

And I'm not saying you have to like both. I'm asking why, if the shows have so much in common at the basic level, are some shows liked better or worse than others.

Or do you feel that they don't have so much in common at all? I genuinely wanna know.
 

DoPo

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Dreadman75 said:
Well, why didn't you like Ed, Edd, and Eddy?
The characters were stupid (too stupid), annoying, and boring. All of them. They were too one dimensional. The episodes were tedious, bland, and lacked funny jokes. Mostly. I'm not saying all of them were unfunny, but most were misses, to the point where none would be worth it in entire episode. The plot was missing. Yeah, disregard that, just joking, but there wasn't anything in the grand scheme of things that made it worth it. They were just...goofing around. And that's it. I felt there was no point or purpose. I'm not saying there should be, but it added to the other annoyances.
 

Generalzdave

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I'm so glad you made this thread, because I've been having this similar question swimming around in my head for a while, and I need a place to put it, so to speak.

I feel like it is nostalgia and a change in taste, although in certain ways. Here's the long version of my argument in spoiler tags, and the shortened one below.

I'm almost 16 now, and I grew up on Cartoon Network and Nickelodeon. The disastrous effects that has on you aside from the point. Anyway, I watched Looney Tunes and Ed, Edd, and Eddy a lot, because they reran those a ton. Pretty much any nihilistic cartoon that your typical little shits would always scream about was part of my lineup. Spongebob, Fairly Oddparents, Catscratch, anything with a small number of main characters that bicker and wreck shit up like nobody's business and come back for it next week. I absolutely went nuts and spent hours in front of the tv. Like any idiot kid.

I liked Ed, Edd, and Eddy near the top of the list, and near the end of the run it sputtered out occasional theme episodes and specials before, in 2009, dropping dead with a movie finale. Along with the new stuff that they kept forcing onto the network, like Chowder, Flapjack, and everything else that people on Youtube rant about, I was getting turned off of cartoons. At this point began my obsession with stand-up comedy after watching a Brian Regan video online. So I stayed off Cartoon Network for a good two years until I was flipping stations until I saw that they were showing Ed, Edd, and Eddy again, and starting was the movie finale that I had acclaimed. I spent about thirty minutes watching the special before I shut the tv off in disgust.

I used to like this show, right? The jokes used to be funny and the characters were complex, and the plot of this movie was amazing, right? It was clear; I'd been spending nine years thoroughly enjoying this garbage. I started an investigation, on-and-off watching most of the shows listed above and others that I can't remember, ending with Fairly Oddparents about three months ago. I hated every minute of it, although strangely I got more of the jokes. I realized that I'd matured past the idiot slapstick, and had become more jaded towards it, probably due to too many adult stand-up specials which may have matured me faster than nature intended.

Strangely, however, two shows remained that I still found funny; Looney Tunes and Tom and Jerry. But why was this? It was even more slapstick, with few different beginning scenarios, just like the stuff I've debunked as crap. But I'd spent years watching all of it, approximately the same time since I can remember, so was nostalgia really a part of it? After some thought, I realized that it was. In the back of my mind, I was comparing everything that I'd been watching to Looney Tunes or Tom and Jerry, because I knew that they were older than the newer shows. It gave a sense of "We've seen this before," and I realized after more thought that I prioritized the 90's and early 2000's stuff over the late 2000's stuff due to this and normal nostalgia. Every other show kind of revered Looney Tunes and Tom and Jerry, too, and often would make jokes or entire episodes to imitate them, which only heightened the pedestal that Bugs Bunny and the gang were already on. Kind of like when you go out to a concert and after their own songs the musician breaks out in a well-known classic. They aren't really making themselves look any better, but they're making the original artist look cool because of it. (Music isn't really that different from television in this aspect, if you think about it) After I got to that thought, I couldn't really get rid of it.

I think that may have been the "something to the older cartoons that endears them to people more", it's a sort of "we did it first, posers" sort of thing, or making jokes that do nothing but make themselves look cheap. At least that's what I think.

Essentially, I vote nostalgia.

I had to try really hard not to put a groan-worthy pun at the end, so consider yourselves lucky that I had the willpower.

EDIT: Also, when you tear this to shreds, keep in mind that this makes sense at 1:30 at night on little sleep, and in the morning it might not.
 

TheSteeleStrap

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Other than the fact that Looney Tunes got away with way more than would be allowed today, I'm agreeing with you. I was missing the 90s style of cartoons, being just out there and weird. Then I realized we have Chowder, Adventure Time, and Regular Show. there are plenty of call backs to that style that I don't think we can complain too much.

I still miss Angry Beavers though. Damn that show had so many euphamisms that I didn't get when I was a kid.
 

Kolby Jack

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I think the first three seasons of Spongebob Squarepants proved more than anything that we are still capable of having Looney Tunes-esque cartoons that are both witty, well-loved by many, and really funny.

Of course, the seasons after the movie came out also prove that wit, creativity, and humor are a lot harder to do than one-gag characters and gross out "humor."

So that's that. Spongebob Squarepants is all at once a representation of how great modern cartoons can be, and how shit they can be.
 

uneek

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Dreadman75 said:
A while back I created a thread asking what had changed between cartoons of say...the 90s to the cartoons of today. Why they seemed so dumbed down and nonsensical (with a few notable exceptions, of course!)

I've done quite a bit of thinking sense then and have since come to an interesting line of thought: Are some the cartoons of the past and of today really so different? Is Ed, Edd, n' Eddy really all that different from Chowder? Are the Looney Toons all that far off from being Johnny Test?

In terms of design...yes there are HUGE differences: Flash animation is running rampant and many times not done well (looking at you Johnny Test!), and there seem to be more annoying characters than what we remember. I'm sure there are other things I forgot to mention but the differences are not what I'm getting at.

But when we go past that and come down to the formulae of these shows there are some striking similarities. (One thing to keep in mind: I am not including cartoons that are heavily story based like Young Justice, Avatar, Samurai Jack...etc, under these criteria)

Think about it for a moment:

Most cartoons nowadays have either dumb, or simple minded characters, focus mainly on slapstick or verbal humor, and jokes are often repeated ad nauseum.

How many shows does that formula remind you of? If we look at the most basic level of these cartoons they are fundamentally the same, but for some reason some are hated and some are beloved.

For example: I've seen Ed, Edd, n' Eddy get many more positive mentions than say...Flapjack. Why is that? The three main characters from both series have the same characteristics: There is a voice of reason, a voice of greed, and a voice of ignorance. Yet we have tired so much more quickly of Flapjack than the Eds.

So what exactly are the differences that make some cartoons like the Looney Toons and the Eds, more memorable or just plain better than others? Is it in how the joke is delivered? Do the setting and voice acting play a part? Are the characters just less annoying?

What are your thoughts my fellow escapists?
To directly answer your question: Having different backgrounds and looks appeal differently to different people, even when the basic character archetypes are the same. It could simply be a matter of preferring 3 suburban teenagers to a whale, a gullible kid, and a clearly drunk pirate. Looks do affect peoples tastes, whether they know it or not.

As for the overall argument, I don't see many of the arguments your making(possibly because I'm very young). For example, I've found the main characters in "Ed, Edd and Eddy" to be very annoying(This didn't keep the show from being funny, but still...). I probably have to agree with the first 2 replies in that nostalgia is probably involved...but not entirely.

I've noticed that you've mentioned "Ed, Edd, and Eddy" a lot, meaning it's probably one of your favorite shows. You've also mentioned "Looney Tunes" which is known to be a classic. This is the problem with nostalgia. You bring the good examples first and ignore the bad ones. You also refer to the few new shows you like as the "exceptions". This could mean that you're determined to believe that on average, shows that are on these days are poor compared to the old. It's a known fact that many classics weren't as well liked in their time and became renowned afterwards. It's not always possible to compare an old show to one that hasn't had time to age. So while you may be right that those specific shows are better than those other specific shows, it shouldn't be proof that one era is better than the other.
(this paragraph sounds like I'm accusing you a lot. If it is, tell me)

So yeah, those are my thoughts.
 

The Thinker

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Generalzdave said:
I had to try really hard not to put a groan-worthy pun at the end, so consider yourselves lucky that I had the willpower.
What? I like puns! Put one in. Please.
 

Berithil

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Part of it is nostalgia, I believe. That's unavoidable. Everyone will have at least a little bit of nostalgic bias when it comes to... Well, pretty much anything. However, I do think that over all cartoons have degraded a bit. We do have some good cartoons, like avatar, adventure time, MLP:FIM (yes, I went there....) but overall, cartoons are just lacking nowadays. Whether its due to a lack of creativity, or the rise of live action kids shows that seem to be replacing cartoons in a lot of areas, I don't know.
 

ecoho

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Berithil said:
Part of it is nostalgia, I believe. That's unavoidable. Everyone will have at least a little bit of nostalgic bias when it comes to... Well, pretty much anything. However, I do think that over all cartoons have degraded a bit. We do have some good cartoons, like avatar, adventure time, MLP:FIM (yes, I went there....) but overall, cartoons are just lacking nowadays. Whether its due to a lack of creativity, or the rise of live action kids shows that seem to be replacing cartoons in a lot of areas, I don't know.
i think i know what theyre lacking and its why avatar,MLP:FIM, and adventure time are all shows you like ,you learned something. now hear me out, every cartoons show in the 90s taught you something(maybe not looney toons but hey it was just done better:) hell GI Joe had little now you knows after every episode,but todays cartoons.....WTF does regular show teach anyone? other then to be a lazy good for nothing ass?
 

SomeLameStuff

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Vault101 said:
nostalga is a powerful thing

I do think we need more shows like AVATAR the last air bender though
Done!


OT: Nostalgia plays a lot into these things. However, that doesn't hide the fact that most cartoons are somewhat lacking these days. I mean, I went back to one of my favourite cartoons Megas XLR and found it less funny than I remember it to be. Weird huh?

BUT! Megas XLR is still filled with awesome!

 

Strain42

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I've actually been re-watching a lot of the cartoons I used to watch as a kid and really examining them with fresh eyes, TRYING (not always succeeding, but trying) to cast the nostalgia aside and judge them as they are. Some held up, some didn't. I now present my personal findings.

Hey Arnold - Stands out as a fairly great show. The only thing I find odd about it now is finding some of the stuff Helga does much creepier than I used to (like making out with the statue of Arnold made entirely out of his chewing gum) But that aside, the show is still pretty funny, well written, interesting varied cast of characters.

Dexter's Laboratory (the earlier episodes anyway, before Dexter 2.0) - Still awesome. I can't say much else here.

Cow and Chicken - Um...I'm honestly embarrassed that I used to find this show funny. It's disgusting and crude without being very clever (see the next item) It's just kinda cheap humor that seems like it tries too hard. Maybe Cow and Chicken is still for you but...it's not for me.

Rocko's Modern Life - I'm hesitant to even call this one a kids show. This was actually a pretty insane show now that I've seen with with adult eyes. But what surprised me the most was how timeless the show was. Rocko was from like 1993 and I still find the episode about dealing with movie theatres to be as relevant today as it was then (perhaps even more so) The show is a bit crude, and there was even an entire episode about Rocko's married neighbor seducing him, but the jokes were mature and clever. I give this one a recommendation

Angry Beavers - I'm in an odd place with this one. While I do still find the show mostly enjoyable, there is one thing that bothers me as an adult, but this is not necessarily a fault of the show itself. Dagget is often the one trying to be responsible and do the right thing, but is still the one who gets his butt kicked while Norbert gets to sit back, be cool, and have everything work out for him. I still enjoy it, but as an adult this did get under my skin at times.

Ed, Edd 'n Eddy - Others have discussed this one, and I understand it from both sides. I personally enjoy This show, but it's certainly hit and miss. Some episodes I absolutely loved like the one where they live at the dump, play hide and seek or build a giant cardboard city, but some were...well...pretty weak (I particularly was not a fan of the episodes where they were in school)

Courage the Cowardly Dog - This is another one that I still love, but like the Ed's, I think it's a real hit and miss formula. Mostly great, but with a few bad eggs thrown into the bunch

Johnny Bravo - Okay, I'm a sucker for this show. As a kid I loved it, as an adult I love it. I just flat out enjoy this show. This one is still funny for me.

Powerpuff Girls - Kinda hard to say anything bad about this show. A fun take on the super hero formula. Good characters, good villains, overall good show.

I'll stop here, but that's how I feel about a lot of the old cartoons I loved as a kid. Even though I don't watch nearly as many cartoons today as I did back then, I still enjoy a lot of the ones I see.

I still absolutely love Fairly Oddparents, Spongebob, Chowder, Misadventures of Flapjack, Regular Show, stuff like that.

I think it would be wrong to say that cartoons are the same today as they were back then, but at the same time I don't think it can be say definitively that the changes are a good or bad thing.
 

Dreadman75

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uneek said:
Dreadman75 said:
To directly answer your question: Having different backgrounds and looks appeal differently to different people, even when the basic character archetypes are the same. It could simply be a matter of preferring 3 suburban teenagers to a whale, a gullible kid, and a clearly drunk pirate. Looks do affect peoples tastes, whether they know it or not.

As for the overall argument, I don't see many of the arguments your making(possibly because I'm very young). For example, I've found the main characters in "Ed, Edd and Eddy" to be very annoying(This didn't keep the show from being funny, but still...). I probably have to agree with the first 2 replies in that nostalgia is probably involved...but not entirely.

I've noticed that you've mentioned "Ed, Edd, and Eddy" a lot, meaning it's probably one of your favorite shows. You've also mentioned "Looney Tunes" which is known to be a classic. This is the problem with nostalgia. You bring the good examples first and ignore the bad ones. You also refer to the few new shows you like as the "exceptions". This could mean that you're determined to believe that on average, shows that are on these days are poor compared to the old. It's a known fact that many classics weren't as well liked in their time and became renowned afterwards. It's not always possible to compare an old show to one that hasn't had time to age. So while you may be right that those specific shows are better than those other specific shows, it shouldn't be proof that one era is better than the other.
(this paragraph sounds like I'm accusing you a lot. If it is, tell me)

So yeah, those are my thoughts.
Accusing, no. Are you correct though? Yes, I would have to say so.

Something that was already a forgone conclusion to me, the nostalgia argument, is quite possibly the biggest factor, differences in humor, background, tastes,...etc most likely account for the other factors.

It's weird really, not long after the OP I my brain managed to churn out this conclusion, so up until now I was just gonna let this thread die. I wonder how often that happens, you post a question only to come to the conclusion most other people reach almost immediately afterwards.

And to answer your query about Ed, Edd, and Eddy. Yes, it was one of my favorite shows but that was just part of the reason I referenced it so much, the other part was the fact that I was a little tired when writing the OP and I just couldn't think of more examples at the time. Maybe I should stop asking questions when I'm tired...I always seem to come to a conclusion or realize my statements aren't as sound as I thought afterwards.

I hope that answers your questions!
 

Something Amyss

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Vault101 said:
nostalga is a powerful thing

I do think we need more shows like AVATAR the last air bender though
I wish there had been more of them in the past.

him over there said:
You watched 90's cartoons for children when you were a child. You're watching a present day cartoon for children as an adult, even without Nostalgia there's an obvious bias there.
I just got done with a marathon of Fairly Oddparents.

By contrast, I just checked out Bravestarr on Netflix a month ago. A show I loved as a child, and watching it now, I think it's bloody awful. I think it's possible to look at things objectively.

I mean, yeah. I still like some stuff from my childhood. I'm a HUGE Galaxy Rangers fan, for example. But I've mostly outgrown Looney Toons. I enjoy Voltron, but not so much the Flinstones. Reboot? Awesome. Spider-Man? Blah. Animaniacs? Cool. Etc. etc.

Maybe it's just me.
 

Dreadman75

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Strain42 said:
I've actually been re-watching a lot of the cartoons I used to watch as a kid and really examining them with fresh eyes, TRYING (not always succeeding, but trying) to cast the nostalgia aside and judge them as they are. Some held up, some didn't. I now present my personal findings.

Hey Arnold - Stands out as a fairly great show. The only thing I find odd about it now is finding some of the stuff Helga does much creepier than I used to (like making out with the statue of Arnold made entirely out of his chewing gum) But that aside, the show is still pretty funny, well written, interesting varied cast of characters.

Dexter's Laboratory (the earlier episodes anyway, before Dexter 2.0) - Still awesome. I can't say much else here.

Cow and Chicken - Um...I'm honestly embarrassed that I used to find this show funny. It's disgusting and crude without being very clever (see the next item) It's just kinda cheap humor that seems like it tries too hard. Maybe Cow and Chicken is still for you but...it's not for me.

Rocko's Modern Life - I'm hesitant to even call this one a kids show. This was actually a pretty insane show now that I've seen with with adult eyes. But what surprised me the most was how timeless the show was. Rocko was from like 1993 and I still find the episode about dealing with movie theatres to be as relevant today as it was then (perhaps even more so) The show is a bit crude, and there was even an entire episode about Rocko's married neighbor seducing him, but the jokes were mature and clever. I give this one a recommendation

Angry Beavers - I'm in an odd place with this one. While I do still find the show mostly enjoyable, there is one thing that bothers me as an adult, but this is not necessarily a fault of the show itself. Dagget is often the one trying to be responsible and do the right thing, but is still the one who gets his butt kicked while Norbert gets to sit back, be cool, and have everything work out for him. I still enjoy it, but as an adult this did get under my skin at times.

Ed, Edd 'n Eddy - Others have discussed this one, and I understand it from both sides. I personally enjoy This show, but it's certainly hit and miss. Some episodes I absolutely loved like the one where they live at the dump, play hide and seek or build a giant cardboard city, but some were...well...pretty weak (I particularly was not a fan of the episodes where they were in school)

Courage the Cowardly Dog - This is another one that I still love, but like the Ed's, I think it's a real hit and miss formula. Mostly great, but with a few bad eggs thrown into the bunch

Johnny Bravo - Okay, I'm a sucker for this show. As a kid I loved it, as an adult I love it. I just flat out enjoy this show. This one is still funny for me.

Powerpuff Girls - Kinda hard to say anything bad about this show. A fun take on the super hero formula. Good characters, good villains, overall good show.

I'll stop here, but that's how I feel about a lot of the old cartoons I loved as a kid. Even though I don't watch nearly as many cartoons today as I did back then, I still enjoy a lot of the ones I see.

I still absolutely love Fairly Oddparents, Spongebob, Chowder, Misadventures of Flapjack, Regular Show, stuff like that.

I think it would be wrong to say that cartoons are the same today as they were back then, but at the same time I don't think it can be say definitively that the changes are a good or bad thing.
It seems like a lot of it comes down to the basics and how they are implemented. Some shows are better with characterization, some are better with the comedy, and some are better at being coherent,...etc.

And, every so often, you'll have those special shows that get the mixture of the basics just right and will, hopefully, be enjoyed by all, not just some.