Casual gamers are not the enemy.

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Techno Squidgy

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Zachary Amaranth said:
Satsuki666 said:
Yes dam those developers for wanting to make games that are profitable instead of loosing money by making what you personally want. Game development is a business just like any other and they cant afford to keep making unprofitable games just because a small niche likes them.
Yes, before the FPS craze, gaming was a giant sinkhole and game companies lost money for making diverse titles.

Further, people legitimately expect game companies to want to lose money.
Not sure if sarcasm...

OT: I agree with OP. It's our expectations of games that are ruining them. However, I have been greatly enjoying the Mass Effect series and cannot wait for the third instalment. As previously stated in the thread, I think the way forward is middle ground developers teams big enough to deliver a fantastic game, but not so big as to put too much pressure on making a mass appeal game.
 

go-10

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old gamers have turned to Hipsters, out ruling anyone and everyone
new gamers, even though most of them are better than the hipster gamers, stick to what they like and bash anything new because its not what they played 1 year ago but if its too much like the first game they bash it because its the same game
casuals don't care about fan base or loyalty to the original they just play the game finish it and move on to the next one or re-play it if they liked it a lot

if you ask me the people that truly enjoy games now ah-days are casuals
 

Rabidwolf27752

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Hey everyone, check out The new Let's Play channel of RabidWolf9000 and his friends. there are plenty of laughs and entertainment for all! Current LP is terraria, more to come!
http://www.youtube.com/user/RabidWolf9000?feature=mhee
 

Condiments

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Karutomaru said:
When this rule became the law:
A good game requires lots of time, money, and effort.
Games have always required significant amount of time and energy to create, but our focus has shifted as gamers to how to the games are presented, rather than how they play. Developers are forced to reach or exceed our minimum expectations of how a game should look or it receives a lot of criticism by both the gaming community and press.

So my question is, when did we as gamers place presentation(how much do we talk about how cinematic and immersion level in games are these days?) over compelling gameplay mechanics?
 

targren

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Condiments said:
Games have always required significant amount of time and energy to create
Not necessarily true. It would never fly today, but one of the most popular games of the 80s was "Ghostbusters," which, IIRC, was written by 1 guy in eight weeks.

It didn't have photorealistic brown or bloom effects, but it was a hell of a lot of fun. :D
 

LilithSlave

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Eh, Angry Birds and Bejeweled aren't bad games in the slightest. In fact a great deal of some of the greatest games out there have been puzzle games. And I probably have just as many people I wouldn't get along with on the "hardcore" gaming side as the casual gaming side.

What I don't like on the casual gaming side, is people who never get into video games and only play casual games, very rarely, ever. Like playing Solitaire at work, goofing off with Angry Birds on their cell phone, then coming home to do nothing other than watch crummy reality shows on their TV and never show any interest in any other gaming before they die.

Those people... I do not have things in common with.

Now, if casual gaming means someone who buys a Nintendo Wii and plays lotsa games for it instead of 2,000 on a computer with quad SLI just to play another violent shooting game, which is "hardcore", I'd happily consider myself a casual gamer over that anyday. I mean, for the price people are paying for these newfangled first person shooters which seem annoying to me, they could buy every single retro game ever. So to me it seems like a vast waste of money.
 

Mafoobula

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tl;dr
Of COURSE casual gamers aren't the enemy. How can we call casual gamers the enemy if we're not really 100% sure what that enemy looks like? Has anyone been able to thoroughly define what makes a casual gamer?

Is it about how often a person plays games? I think even the most avid gamer can play for only so long before needing to take a hiatus. I love World of Warcraft, but there were times when I would not play for MONTHS at a time. Even now, with my sweet gaming laptop and my many games, I'll only play every few days.
On a related note, maybe it's about the duration of the gaming sessions. Sure, I don't play often, but when I do, it's an all day thing. Except if that's the case, then what about all the people who are most certainly gamers, but for varying reasons can only play 5-10 minutes at a time? Moviebob himself made this case a while back.

Maybe it's about the kinds of games a person plays. Makes sense, but any knob can play 10 minutes of Gears of Modern Warfare 3 and put it down. Anyway, is there really anything wrong with wanting to play a little Angry Birds or Plants vs. Zombies while waiting for something? That's a rhetorical question, because we all know that the answer is a big damn NO.

So what IS the problem? Does the issue stem from the people making the games, because they're making the simple "casual" games and ignoring the mature "hardcore" games? Well, it's pretty obvious that we still have a LOT of hardcore games, each one hardcore for one reason or another. True, they're not all too common, but they never HAVE been common. Yes, I know there's a metric crap-ton of brown&gray FPSs that are supposedly hardcore. I don't care, they're just as pick-up-and-play as any other game. Point gun, shoot. Doesn't get much simpler than that.
It's the exact same problem as the one about the casual gamer. We don't really know what defines a game that is truly hardcore. A lot of "casual" games are easy to recognize - Angry Birds immediately comes to mind - but then there's an area of grey so vast, it boggles the mind.

So I ask one more time: What IS the problem? It's us. It's the gaming community at large. I'm part of it, you're part of it, the douchebags that play nothing but Gears of Modern Warfare and Madden are part of it, even though I wish to Seldon they weren't. But if I'm honest, I'm not 100% sure what it is we're doing wrong. I mean, this is a start, right here: Arguing, pretending to be so damn cool - don't deny it, we all take more pride than we should in our "gamer" label - and not really doing a lot to solve the problem... whatever it is.
Actually, I don't know if this is the real problem, either, but it sure as hell is a bigger contributor to the bigger issue, whatever it is.

So in the face of all this, is there possibly a solution to be had for this phantom problem? My first guess is to just wait and hope that clearer heads prevail. Let the market do what it will do, keep playing the Gears of Halo Warfare, the Madden, the Kirby and everything else, and if something really big happens... maybe then we'll have a better idea what the problem really was, this whole time.
 

faithhhhh

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Causal are not enemy but they are target people so in some way or another they are responsible for change.
 

HardkorSB

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Condiments said:
I think the ever-growing sentiment that "casuals are ruining the industry" needs to be addressed. I think this attitude has come more to the forefront due to massive success of the casual industry this generation, and the trends we've been seeing in our games. These include, lower difficulty, streamlined mechanics, less depth, low innovation, multiplayer prevalence and less genre diversity. Its natural to place the blame upon those "new" gamers considering many of these trends cater to their tastes. I, however, would like to point out that the same argument has used multiple times in the past, possibly even against you. It might give you some perspective that you were viewed equally as bad casual gamers today to older gamers, and I don't expect this line of reasoning to die out anytime soon.

However the fallacy of the argument doesn't rule out the fact that gaming truly IS changing. Its just that we can't make foolish assumptions and lay the current generation woes on "casual gamers". The truth I believe is much more complex. The trends I mentioned above might be a result of new gamers entering the fold with different expectations, but I think we're all to blame for the overall direction of the industry. The rapid march of technology, and our general expectation of what "production" values should be have played a large part of why games are what are they are these days.

I think simply put, the AAA industry can not support individual niches anymore. Its why we've seen a general "pooling" of genres(SHOOTERS AND RPG MECHANICS EVERYWHERE) and lower difficulty to appease the largest audience possible. Tailor your specific game to much, say like an epic turn based RPG or turn based strategy(like Temple of elemental evil or Xcom), and you're not going to garner the sales needed for success. Its why we see multiplayer being attached to what would normally be singleplayer games. Developers/publishers care about the perception of their product to the overall public(singleplayer/multiplayer alike), that they would include put together a haphazard multiplayer mode that doesn't even fit with the game. Why? Because they can't afford not to.

I think this is why I'm increasingly wary of this this next generation. I can't imagine the industry when production costs only will FURTHER increase from their current state, making it much harder to profit. This all ties to our expectation of production values should be. Its on us, bros, not them(the casuals). As long as we obsess over sheer graphic quality(no including art direction), genres like turn based strategy will be viewed as "non-contemporary" to developers(poor Xcom).

So what are your thoughts on this? What do you are the root causes for the "casualization" of the industry? Sorry for the long post. Kind of went on a ramble there.
For me, the difference between "casual" and "hardcore" gamers isn't in the games the play but how much time do they spend playing it.
If you play Farmville 5-6 hours per day everyday then you're not just doing it casually (an I know people who do that) just like if you're into "deep" complex rpg's and strategy games but you just play them once or twice a week for an hour or 2, just to waste some time then you're not that "hardcore".
It's the approach that matters here, not what you're approaching.
 

LordLundar

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Fanfic_warper said:
Would someon please explain what a casual gamer is to me so I can understand this better and then what the other side of the specturm would be?
The only static definition I've seen is "someone who likes a game I don't."
 

pl4yerse7en

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Nope, online passes are the enemy at the moment. One battle at a time, people.

OT: The companies that realised that they could make the same game over and over again and have it sell are at fault. Apparently, Epic announced that they didn't manage to make a profit on Bulletstorm, so I guess companies will just stick with what they have.
 

SageRuffin

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Dec 19, 2009
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Shinobi720 said:
Bah! I hate casual gamers and casual games! They are ruining the gaming industry by popularizing overrating AAA, mainstream games. Gaming should belong solely to basement dwelling nerds only. We play games with the complexity of anything from Valve, Alpha Protocol, the original Mass Effect, Onechambara, and Do You Like Horny Bunnies?. Games like Bejeweled, Angry Birds, Halo, Gears of War, Mass Effect 2, Final Fantasy and Call of Doody are for idiots.

Am I edgy or what?
Did you... you seriously threw an eroge into that mix (and not a very good one from what I've seen). Goddamn.

And to answer your question in a devil's-advocate style: no, you're not. }:D
 

SageRuffin

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Dec 19, 2009
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Shinobi720 said:
How dare you! I'm so edgy, that my friends from EverQuest call me the Armond White of video games. I play Counter-Strike for 24 hours and creating anti-Halo threads at forums in my basement, try to beat that.

I don't play eroge games, but I know a lot of real "edgy" gamers who do. Not to mention that's the only eroge game I know, because it was featured on an episode of X-Play (back then, when it was good) and mocked by SomethingAwful.)
Yeah? I play fighting games, and can memorize 20-minute combos within seconds of selecting a character! I can wipe the floor with anyone using anyone! You so-called "h4rdc0r3 g4mrs" with your silly little "eph pee esses" and your "emm emm ohs" and you "casual gamers" with your simple-ass Peggle's and Bejeweled II and your Hexic HD don't know shit about tactical reflexes and combos so intricate you could based novelizations on them!

Now how do you like them apples?

---

Frevbhfyl gubhtu, V xabj ubj tbbq bar'f ersyrkrf unir gb or va nal SCF jbegu vgf fnyg, naq gung gur cnhfr-naq-cynl fglyr bs tnzvat pregnvayl unf vg'f hfrf. V jnf (bevtvanyyl) gevccvat nobhg gur snpg lbh hfrq na rebtr va lbhe fneqbavp pbzzrag.

Gubhtu V fhccbfrq V fubhyqa'g fnl gbb ybhq gung V rira xabj jung na rebtr vf...[footnote]Use Rot13 to translate.[/footnote]
 

Dreiko_v1legacy

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Casual gamers are just people, nothing wrong with them. It's the companies that would rather tend to their needs rather than keep doing what they're supposes to that are at fault.


I don't mind games with casual elements in them, I mind the games I love being affected by not selling as much as the games with casual elements in them. The reasons for that being that the idiot companies expect things to compete with things that have a 50 times wider audience, which is plainly idiotic.

The problem is that too many companies now want a piece of that pie that a lot of what made games good is being eclipsed or "casual-fied".
 

Robert Ewing

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The entire casual gaming scare was hilarious.

It reminded me of the industrial redundancy scare. Old pro packeters (gamers) Are a master at their art. They can package toothpaste tubes at the speed of light, they are truly an elite core of the trade. Then some new shiny tiny machines came in (The casual gamers) And did their job equally as good as them.

It's also like watching a noob play a game, casual games were an insult to hardcore gamers, and the sales doubly so. But casual gaming is essential, you all must no this. Casual games aren't the way forward, but they are part of the reason it's going forward.
 

SageRuffin

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Dec 19, 2009
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Shinobi720 said:
Hey, I play Virtua Fighter a lot and I've mastered five different characters.

No, seriously, I'm a big Virtua Fighter fan. That series is the shiznits! I like fighting games, deal with it.
Okay, I have to yield there. I've only rolled with 3 characters max.

And I really do play a lot of fighters myself, so I'm sure you know all about how fighters are too "complicated since they rely on improbable attack strings that require an essay to explain". Unless you're just playing a game with no intention at all at gettering better at it, you can't really play any fighter - not even Smash Bros. - "casually" and call it a day.
 

Therumancer

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Nov 28, 2007
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Condiments said:
I think the ever-growing sentiment that "casuals are ruining the industry" needs to be addressed. I think this attitude has come more to the forefront due to massive success of the casual industry this generation, and the trends we've been seeing in our games. These include, lower difficulty, streamlined mechanics, less depth, low innovation, multiplayer prevalence and less genre diversity. Its natural to place the blame upon those "new" gamers considering many of these trends cater to their tastes. I, however, would like to point out that the same argument has used multiple times in the past, possibly even against you. It might give you some perspective that you were viewed equally as bad casual gamers today to older gamers, and I don't expect this line of reasoning to die out anytime soon.

However the fallacy of the argument doesn't rule out the fact that gaming truly IS changing. Its just that we can't make foolish assumptions and lay the current generation woes on "casual gamers". The truth I believe is much more complex. The trends I mentioned above might be a result of new gamers entering the fold with different expectations, but I think we're all to blame for the overall direction of the industry. The rapid march of technology, and our general expectation of what "production" values should be have played a large part of why games are what are they are these days.

I think simply put, the AAA industry can not support individual niches anymore. Its why we've seen a general "pooling" of genres(SHOOTERS AND RPG MECHANICS EVERYWHERE) and lower difficulty to appease the largest audience possible. Tailor your specific game to much, say like an epic turn based RPG or turn based strategy(like Temple of elemental evil or Xcom), and you're not going to garner the sales needed for success. Its why we see multiplayer being attached to what would normally be singleplayer games. Developers/publishers care about the perception of their product to the overall public(singleplayer/multiplayer alike), that they would include put together a haphazard multiplayer mode that doesn't even fit with the game. Why? Because they can't afford not to.

I think this is why I'm increasingly wary of this this next generation. I can't imagine the industry when production costs only will FURTHER increase from their current state, making it much harder to profit. This all ties to our expectation of production values should be. Its on us, bros, not them(the casuals). As long as we obsess over sheer graphic quality(no including art direction), genres like turn based strategy will be viewed as "non-contemporary" to developers(poor Xcom).

So what are your thoughts on this? What do you are the root causes for the "casualization" of the industry? Sorry for the long post. Kind of went on a ramble there.

The problem is the industry. I have no problem with capitalism, but I think it can go too far. The issue is that the industry is no longer content to make a decent profit, but wants to make the biggest possible profit off of everything it does.

Casual gamers are "the enemy" because with them outnumbering real gamers substantially any game aimed at them has the abillity to move more units. What's more casual gamers are far less demanding since they don't follow games or play them enough to be all that demanding in terms of quality. You poop out another shooter game using an existing toolset and some custom artwork, and it costs comparitively little to develop and there is a huge audience. Developing an epic turn based RPG involves a lot more work, includuing developing your own game engine, it also sells to less people, thus while it will make a a decent profit, it's not as profitable as puking out another shooter gamer.

On paper there is no reason why casuals, and gamers, need to be opposed to each other, there should be enough game production abillity for enough games to be produced accross the spectrum for everyone to be happy. In reality though the game industry of today has less people interested in making good/serious games, despite their PR, and more people interested in making as much money as possible, as quickly as possible. Thus everyone figures "well, we'll let someone else making the serious games" and goes running after the casual market... leaving increasingly few serious games for serious gamers on the market. What's more when you DO see a developer interested in taking the craft of game making seriously, they inevitably sell out, and then wind up being re-targeted at the casual audience. It's sort of like Bioware talking about "RPGs losing relevency" it's not that they are, or there isn't a demand, it's simply that they, and their new EA masters, know that there is more money in shooters, and creating a cinematic shooter is a cash pile. What Bioware would do on it's own is irrelevent when someone else assigns their priorities for them. After a while, any developer that has sold out generally stops caring as the cash rolls in.


Games have always been about making money, but today when it's moved beyond making a decent profit, to an attitude about monster profits and growth... yeah, I think that's a problem. I'm a big fan of capitalism, competition, owning your own property, and all of that stuff, but I think the big problem we have is a few greedy jerks inevitably ruining everything for everyone else. I loathe communism and socialism, and see Capitalism as the right track, but I do think the idea needs to be worked on to prevent this kind of thing from happening. I'm hardly a genius but something like a cap on how much money an individual or company can have/earn might work, rendering growth beyond a certain point irrelevet, and causing people to put more effort into their craft than simply profiteering at the expense of everyone and everything else given that after reaching a certain point it doesn't matter anymore. A lot could go wrong with that, and it's not an original idea, but the point is that really I think the gaming industry is a good example of the down side of an otherwise pefect system.


As far as the gaming industry being unable to make certain levels of games, that's a lollercaust, and I think it says a lot about the problem with casuals and those making up the gaming audience nowadays that people actually believe that. New technology wouldn't be an improvement if it wasn't viable to do what was done with previous technology.

The actual truth is simply that the human resources designing games have started to demand more and more money along with those monster profits, despite their pretensions otherwise. This means that hiring them to do similar amounts of work has become more difficult, since as the gaming industry brings in more money, the developers demand more pay from the publishers, causing a vicious cycle.

What's more publishers have no vested interest in producing long, high quality games. A game that can keep a player going for hundreds of hours of gameplay defeats the purpose of running a franchise where they want someone to buy a constant number of new games, if not from the same franchise, from similar ones. A game as big as the original "Deus Ex" would kind of cut into the sequel potential for "Deus Ex: Human Revolution" if people were really content with it for the long term, not to mention any similar types of games they want to release in the meantime while the sequel is coming out. Heck, if everyone is addictively playing the game you released a few months ago, then they might not buy the game (even of an unrelated type) your putting out right now.

I mean sure, we COULD see some serious changes if the industry decided to tighten it's belt, and content itself with lower profit margins (while still making profits of course). Understand this is a multi-billion dollar industry, guys like Bobby Kotick have private jets and get into sex scandals with their personal stewardesses (look it up). What's influacing your games is the money that allows him to do things like that, not any kind of actual design realities. It's just that the gaming industry now has this huge, casual market to exploit, pays off big bucks to th egaming media, and there really aren't that many serious gamers to call them on things, and when we do... who cares... there are tons of bleating casuals with their wallets out for the next CoD game, willing to whine about mistreatment (multi-player servers, etc...) but never do anything about it.


If the casuals/bros seem to be looked down on by a lot of elitist, serious gamers (like me I guess), understand that there are reasons for it, it's not just something that has occured "for the lulz". Actually with the numbers as they are, the serious gamers are usually putting their necks out because they are likely to get fanboy stomped at the very least.

You know, I wouldn't care if I saw more serious games, like real RPGs, but as it is, we're not because of the casual market and the way it's de-evolving the industry with it being presented as some kind of evolution... but when you hear Bioware trying to politely say it wants to move away from RPGs (as casual friendly as they were) that kind of illustrates the problem. The dislike between actual gamers and casuals is all caused by the business, and honestly I spend more of my time throwing bile at the game industry than the casual gamers themselves for a reason. I hope enough people will some day catch on, pressure the industry with their money to change things for the better, and then we can put all of this behind us. I lack the charisma to start a revolution, but I'll be able to say with a straight face "I was there, fighting for that, before it became cool and everyone jumped in". Who knows, maybe we'll see casuals and serious gamers directly united in camradarie, but that won't happen until the game industry is made to change.
 

tahrey

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Halo Fanboy said:
tahrey said:
I
And most of my early gaming experience - and that of almost all my peers, I would assume - was an almost wholly casual one anyway. What else would you call Mario, Sonic, Dizzy, and all the rest of the vast majority of 8- and 16-bit titles, which were often either arcade ports with the "coin insert" switch mapped to a function key, or heavily inspired by them?

And I tell you what, having scraped through the final round of the first episode of Angry Birds, I'm not downloading any of the others. Casual? Like hell it is. It's challenging, incredibly addictive, requires skill, experience and concentration in order to do well, and eats up a huge amount of time.
So all 16 bit games are casual but Angry Birds isn't?
I think you misunderstand the meaning of "vast majority", and skipped the later part of my post that described the 16 bit games (some of which were either ports from, or were ported to 8-bits) that represented some pretty heavy investments of time and effort. But they were decidedly in the minority and can therefore be pulled out as easily identified examples to this day. Though as most systems plugged into a TV (or a small, flickery TV-standard monitor), often the only TV in the house shared amongst all family members, and there was very little in the way of online gaming - certainly, not as we'd know it - this was only really to be expected. It was a toy, not a life choice.

And whilst I'll agree that most smartphone games I've seen are decidedly casual, arcadey, dip-in things (as you'd expect for something that may be played waiting at a bus stop - a bit like the original gameboy, whose sparsely-spread epics had quite closely spaced save points), I'm standing by my assessment of Angry Birds being something more intense than casual. The same way that Lemmings, whilst maybe not being the most hardcore of games, certainly was no longer a casual diversion by the time you reached the higher levels, but a quite demanding puzzle game which required some serious critical thinking, a fair bit of dexterity at the controls, and usually some tens of repeat tries on the one level, often in quick and frustrated sucession at 2.30AM on a weeknight.

that doesn't make old games the same as the minigames of today, you can credit feed and button mash through Streets of Rage, Street Fighter 2 and Dodonpachi but that doesn't mean there isn't an actual layer of depth and competetiveity above that which goes far beyond any original wii/ios game I can think of.
I dunno man, I've seen various games that were once released as full titles BECOMING minigames (either explicit or "hidden") in some modern titles. With a few weeks to mess about I could probably get a skeletal facsimile of SoR or SF2 up and running (I have no idea what Dodonpachi is, sorry), maybe without much in the way of AI, but I wouldn't say the same of e.g. Halo. (Though... a 2D flavour of Wii Sports? Probably). Again, both of those were arcade titles, they're pretty much as "casual" as a game can get - designed to catch your attention as you wander through an arcade, draw you in for a couple of plays, and then you're off, having formed no lasting connection with the game except for - if you're good - a transient entry on the high score table, having learned relatively little, carried no state into or out of it, and not having spent more than five minutes out of your day.

(My programming skills aren't the best... but I feel proud enough to say I got a homebrew version of Space Invaders going in textmode using a copy of GW-BASIC on an olllllld 286 I was given. Then, like an idiot, upgraded it to DOS 6.22... and couldn't make GWB work under it.)

On the other hand, I can see where you're coming from with some of the more notoriously short titles of the most modern era. I would in that case suggest you just step back five-to-ten years, to before the age where such brevity was the norm...

Where are the pro players of Canabalt, Angry Birds ect.?
I'm sure they're out there. Define "pro", and what kind of game you had in mind which typically sports "professional" players?

BTW, can someone get rid of that creepy Wonga ad in the bottom corner with the rubber faced grandma moving the sliders up and down? It's creeping me the hell out and sending my CPU into overdrive. Ta muchly.
*edits post for some other reason*
OH GOD NOW SHE'S AT THE TOP USING THEM AS A STAIRMASTER.
Wonga, this is making me far, far less likely to use your payday loans service, god forbid that I should ever have to, vs any of your rivals. Please drag yourselves out of the uncanny valley.
 

Halo Fanboy

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tahrey said:
Again, both of those were arcade titles, they're pretty much as "casual" as a game can get - designed to catch your attention as you wander through an arcade, draw you in for a couple of plays, and then you're off, having formed no lasting connection with the game except for - if you're good - a transient entry on the high score table, having learned relatively little, carried no state into or out of it, and not having spent more than five minutes out of your day.
This is mainly where you're wrong. Arcade games were built to get people to come back for more since they got money for every play as well as being hard enough to force people to have to spend more cash to get far in the game. The opposite of single player games today which are 50 percent cutscene. I hope you realize that the high scores that were made on the high score table are actually gained by players who dedicate a significant amount to the game. For most of these games that got big enough there was a significant community of people who would meet up just to compete against each other or compare tapes and replays of people playing the game well. you can't really pass much judgement on them if you only play casually ( occasionally and only in breif intervals without much drive to get good.)
I'm sure they're out there. Define "pro", and what kind of game you had in mind which typically sports "professional" players?
I'm basically thinking of people who compete in tournaments or attempt world records, no doubt there are people like this for Angry Birds but I can't imagine that the level of competition is very high. From what I've seen on sites that host various game scoreboards there aren't many people that take the game seriously. Angry Birds is the most popular game in the world but I'm more likely to find a serious scoring discussion for a game like Battle Garrega which has a more limited audience. I guess this is the opportunity for you, a hardcore Angry Birds player, to point out what I'm overlooking.

I don't really know anything about Angry Birds, I don't really see it as a very depthful game from what I played, but like I said I don't really know anything. I'm only really complaining because I saw your amusement towards people considering arcade-style games as non-casual to be somewhat of a slight lol.