MatsVS said:
mfeff said:
Why is it that modern digital works are noted for being the heralds of the paradigm shift in western society, when many who would praise these works have no real experience in or with long term relationships or matters of responsibility? How could this be anything more than an a priori, which is nothing more than imagination land and assumptions. This is not a statement of attack, rather a question of competence.
How is there to be an objective weighing of the medium, when those doing the creating and the weighing, truly, do not know the difference.
I greatly enjoyed your comment, but could you elaborate on this point, please? Specifically, what you base your premises on, and why you attribute so much importance on this in particular?
I think it can be taken a couple different ways, which is how I (sort of) meant it to be taken.
On the one hand:
I think that in any given period of time we find that youth (people) tend to rally around things that they can associate with themselves in some sort of meaningful way. I would love to say that technology is one of those things, however, there is a tremendous concerted effort in the publishing circles to engender and create this "gamer" culture. Personally, I do not think it exist, and if it does it is certainly nothing like a Haight-Ashbury. There is no revolution, there is only social reciprocity and all the associated logical fallacies. It is neither good nor bad, it is simply make believe to turn a buck. Generation X makes these things, generation Y... well there we go.
On the other hand:
Specifically the original post offers a continued examination of sexuality in gaming, and even more specifically how Catherine demonstrated and revealed distinct truths of the world in which we live.
I found that to be extremely debatable.
As I mentioned in a post response to DexterNorgam in this thread, Catherine utilizes a very narrow focus of experience from which to explore the narrative human drama.
Does Catherine "reveal some truth". Yes. I simply question what that truth is.
To really cut to the chase, I find that those who played Catherine (and this could be any medium or title), who managed to read themselves into the narrative on some level, are finding associations with the information (characters) to themselves. So a truth is revealed, although like any self fulfilling prophecy, that truth, being rooted in sympathetic association, reveals much about that person, as such, reveals a "personal truth".
Not to be confused with a universal truth concerning human relationships.
To come to grips with Catherine, we briefly examine the characters and see a strong woman basically raising a man child, a man child suffering from a failure to launch, and that man child engaging in a relationship with an even more childish child.
This is interesting from the standpoint that Vincent is in the middle with female conflict drawing him from one perspective to the other. However, what is really going on is a play on vertical relationships.
Catherine is in a position of power over Vincent, and Vincent is in a position of power over Katherine. Katherine reverses the trope.
The missed opportunity here was to play Katherine as a reflection of the dynamic between Vincent and Catherine, as Vincent taking on the psychological valence of Catherine, and Katherine taking on the role as a much younger Vincent.
Through this vehicle Vincent could of grown as a character and made the emotional association about his behavior as he takes on the roll of his older girlfriend when dealing with Katherine.
Well, this is not how it really goes down. Sadly I "think" this was the original idea and it just fell apart during game design.
Instead what we have is an exploration of a mid-lifer, who has not really lived much life for all practical purposes being fought over by two women who want something from him. It is a three way user relationship, and very destructive. This perspective is decidedly male, especially considering the Japanese flavor of the game. In Japan relationships typically do not "become" serious until (usually) the male has established himself financially. Vincent comes off as a NEET (not in education, employment, or training). While Vincent does have a job it is a dead end job, much like his life.
I do not want to go any further into this concept other than to come back to origin and state, that it is of my opinion that the author has read herself into the position of Catherine. As such a strong woman, career motivated, dragging men through life. I am not of the mind to say that, that alone, is enough to liable a paradigm shift in thinking that "Our values have shifted to admire the single woman - and the single mother - as figures to admire rather than to pity."
It is perhaps more true to say, much as the Marquis did, that woman do not have the freedom or the space to "BE" women, and as such, are expressing masculine traits to mask feminine uncertainty.
I think the author would like us to think that "our values have shifted", perhaps the author feels that way about herself, or has some examples of women she knows that would like to feel that way, or that it sounded good to say.
Again I think there is a video series in this concept and the ramifications of it, but one would need some life experiences and working examples to really get at it.
This is the hinge from which my argument would hang.
The third hand:
Sexuality in gaming is something that has been around for a long time. Just not in public like it has been in the past few years through the vehicle and lenses of special interest groups (real or imagined).
Has it been dealt with in a mature way? I think so, back in the day. Has it been dealt with in a mature way in recent mega-publisher media? Maybe Catherine, and I give it credit for that (kinda sorta).
Perhaps there is a difference between mature exploration of themes, and mature content? In the case of Catherine I see lots of adult situation content, stuffed with immature very teenage people, painted to look far more adult than it really is. I have a hard time finding the adult drama. Utilizing set pieces for shock value.
There is an appeal here, but not one that really addresses an older more established community. The trend here is that much of popular culture has gone this way. I do not think it is for me to say if it is good or bad, however, I will say that like anything it is subjective. Calling it a triumph simply because it meets ones personal assumption as to how "life really is" seems to me to miss the mark.
For an example, as you asked the question "and why you attribute so much importance on this in particular?":
If you want to model flying an aircraft in a game or simulation, do you work with people who are pilots and design aircraft in the working world?
Of course, unless you want to utilize anime physics, which happens, but still there is often consultation.
If in your life you are interested in pursuing a life free from divorce and nonsense, whom do you consult? Someone with no experience, a divorcee, or someone with years of marriage experience?
Typically people with no experience (your friends), then what is available thus a divorcee (your parents), finally maybe, someone with experience (good luck).
This is what I am getting at.
Prior to experience, can only be conjecture, beliefs, assumptions, opinions, hypothesis. As with anything experience counts for much, especially the "feel" of a thing. This is what make a good film director outstanding, as opposed to simply marginal or academic.
It is important especially moving forward whether or not there will be simply more cash in titillation and sexploitation in the medium, or some honest attempts to tackle some of the more pressing social issues as they relate to sexuality in society.
Vincent is presented with two choices, life is not that way, certainly his situation is fantasy land with men wishing they had his problem, and women wanting to be these women. An entertaining farce. Having of seen everything in Catherine, in the real work-a-day world... it came off, simply inexperienced. It does meet the expectation though of "how these things would go down" in the mind though... which is what I suppose it was designed to do.
Very style over substance, very surface, much like people are today. I suspect that is the target audience and hence the lack of a public backlash or outrage. Toss a pair of ta'ta's in Battlefield 3 and see what happens. That would make my point better than I could.
Does every game need to do this (or try to be serious)? Hell no.
I love Sengoku Rance, but it is not trying to be anything more than what it is. I think Artificial Academy is hysterical in a certain light.
I also thought Catherine was very "meh".
Especially coming off the Persona series it was very juvenile. (and Persona deals directly with teens, which is interesting as well) I think expounding on the merits of Catherine to be well... were talking about it, I suppose that is something, but it is also very "fantasy" primarily male centric fantasy, I am not sure it really accomplished anything anymore than Heavy Rain did.
It is a shame really.
Thanks for your post!
As I said to DexterNorgam, "People see through me all the time, how come they can't see through this game?"