CDPR on Cyberpunk 2077 backlash

hanselthecaretaker

My flask is half full
Legacy
Nov 18, 2010
8,738
5,910
118
Or, ?Stop telling me what to be offended by? [https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=v79CPm1ehRo]

Apparently the game world is being created by a black man too.

What I?m wondering is why there never seemed to be nearly as much complaining about The Witcher 3, which is far more white-centric and less diverse. Maybe the gaming climate wasn?t quite so sensitive yet back in 2015. But then again [removed]* was right around that time IIRC.

*MOD EDIT: Please do not raise that particular subject on the forums, thanks.
 

Dreiko_v1legacy

New member
Aug 28, 2008
4,696
0
0
Nah I remember articles back in the w3 days complaining about the lack of Africans in the polish fantasy setting of the game. It wasn't as notable back then because it wasn't done by some famous grifter who tried to extort them with a tweet that sounded an awful lot like "nice game you got here, would be terrible if something were to happen to it" reminiscent of old mafia style extortion lol.


But yeah with cyberpunk it's even more glaring cause as you mentioned the original creator is 100% behind the game and also black. It shows you that diversity of thought isn't as important as ideological conformity to a particular view of the world. People just use black people as tools towards that end while feigning concern only to dismiss them when they disagree.

Even if you wanna call the other side also indifferent, at least it's not deceitful and pretending it cares about things only because it's politically expedient.
 
Feb 26, 2014
668
0
0
Being black doesn't mean you can't say or do something incredibly offensive. Black people can be homophobic and transphobic and, at least in my area, there was definitely a problem with the black community treating Haitians like shit. Black people have their own prejudices and biases that may lead to some offensive representation. As far as I'm concerned there is no real backlash. There are certainly people who are concerned with Haitians once again being associated with Voodoo as a defining trait (Which is my concern) or potentially exploitative trans imagery, but the greater response to 2077 is overwhelmingly positive. The backlash to the backlash certainly exists and it's as pathetic as ever.

The problem on display with these articles is still a racist one, but from the opposite direction. The type of benevolent racism, and sexism, that suggest certain types of characters cannot be evil, do evil, or be less than. If a character isn't a white male that character must be a prodigy, intelligent, and of strong moral character. It's a thought I hope dies in a ditch somewhere so we can get diverse complex characters and not wooden paragons of virtue.
 

Casual Shinji

Should've gone before we left.
Legacy
Jul 18, 2009
20,342
5,156
118
hanselthecaretaker said:
Apparently the game world is being created by a black man too.
That doesn't mean the gameworld is therefor exempt from racial stereotypes. And like Captain Marvelous noted, the backlash to the backlash is actually way more prevelent, as usual. See, I can't say I heard anything about this until my YouTube frontpage got flooded with videos speaking outrage over a journalist apparently speaking critically of some of the racial depictions.
Dreiko said:
But yeah with cyberpunk it's even more glaring cause as you mentioned the original creator is 100% behind the game and also black.
People just use black people as tools towards that end while feigning concern only to dismiss them when they disagree.
You just used the creator being black as a tool yourself there buddy. Kinda hysterical.. not even two sentences in between.

OT: I'm going to refrain from pointing fingers till I actually play the game and see what's what. Right now I can't trust youtube on giving me an unbaised overview, since most if not all videos are just too busy stuffing their faces on the outrage feeding frenzy. I'm sure YongYea and whoever already have two or three more videos lined up on the subject, cuz gotta squeeze the most out of these topics.
 

Xprimentyl

Made you look...
Legacy
Aug 13, 2011
6,749
5,067
118
Plano, TX
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Man, people are getting quicker and quicker to be offended. Yes, there are injustices in this world and racism, stereotypes, sexism, homophobia and a plethora of other negative things exist to rail against when it?s necessary, but for fuck?s sake, sometimes a cigar is just a cigar. You can have a black person, or even a GROUP of black people, in a work of fiction as bad guys without it being ZOMFG, RACISM!!! You can have a picture of a trans person, however tastefully or otherwise dressed, in a work of fiction without it being ZOMFG, THEY?RE INSENSITIVE TO TRANS PEOPLE!!! Why not wait until you?ve got a finished product to scrutinize on its complete merit instead of getting a few still images or few minutes of gameplay and immediately virtue signaling and rallying the masses to be offended with you? From what I understood watching that, nothing ?racist? was indicative of the game as a whole and the trans ad made sense within the context of the fictional world they?ve created. It?s this kind of knee-jerk alarm sounding that gives ?social justice? it blanket negative connotation.
 
Apr 5, 2008
3,736
0
0
hanselthecaretaker said:
What I?m wondering is why there never seemed to be nearly as much complaining about The Witcher 3, which is far more white-centric and less diverse. Maybe the gaming climate wasn?t quite so sensitive yet back in 2015. But then again Gamergate was right around that time IIRC.
There was a hullabaloo about TW3 too, including a discussion on this forum. The social justice types attacked that one too, and they're trying again now. I think it's lucky that it's not an american company, or they might've pandered already.

These people complaining will go their lives never creating anything of note, just moaning about the creations of better people than them. They are the racists and bigots of our time, using a veneer of perpetual offence to display their "virtue". They only see the world thru a prism of skin colour and anything not adhering to their views they form a mob and gang up on it. Often these aren't the people who even buy games, just moan about them. Even irrelevant fossil Sarkeesian is trying to extort money from them and get her talons in. Best reply, "They've got the bloke who designed the Cyberpunk game setting in the first place, so I think they're fine." 😁
 

Dreiko_v1legacy

New member
Aug 28, 2008
4,696
0
0
Casual Shinji said:
Dreiko said:
But yeah with cyberpunk it's even more glaring cause as you mentioned the original creator is 100% behind the game and also black.
People just use black people as tools towards that end while feigning concern only to dismiss them when they disagree.
You just used the creator being black as a tool yourself there buddy. Kinda hysterical.. not even two sentences in between.
I did not say that anything is special about him being black that makes him more right. I mentioned it because those who usually do are now disregarding him. Never did I imply that him being black lends him or his argument more credibility, you just assumed I was doing that since that's where your head is at. You can show people being hypocritical in a person disregarding someone who they claim should be regarded more without agreeing that indeed they should be.

I , unlike them, never claimed to be doing something for the benefit of equality or diversity or anything of the sort. I'm concerned JUST with the actual games. People of all kinds are obviously tools in making games better in this context. I'm only ever advocating to the betterment of games. There's no inconsistency here since unlike them I never pretended to care about any other issue and if it makes games better somehow I'll be all for it. Even if it's somehow bad for equality.
 

CaitSeith

Formely Gone Gonzo
Legacy
Jun 30, 2014
5,374
381
88
Is Cyberpunk 2077 released yet? No? Then you all better cite your sources, because all this sounds too sketchy.
 

TheMysteriousGX

Elite Member
Legacy
Sep 16, 2014
8,545
7,156
118
Country
United States
I mean, Witcher 3 had a guy go "this is my favorite game but there are literally zero brown humans in it, what's up?" and he got hundreds of hours of YouTube videos about much he hated Witcher 3 in response.

CDPR got some criticism regarding turning the poser-voodoo gang changed from being a commentary on cultural appropriation filled with poser white dudes that got changed to...actual voodoo bad guys. When the main complaint of the direction of you game is that it's all surface level glitz without actual punk, that's a bad change. It's also a problem Pondsmith's had for years.

CDPR got some criticism for an exploitative in game advertisement featuring a trans woman. CDPR said that people *were supposed* to be offended by it. Can't blame somebody for getting offended at something they're supposed to be offended by. The fundamental conflict seems to be a lack of trust that CDPR can actually pull off that commentary instead of just doing the thing but in a funny voice.
 

Terminal Blue

Elite Member
Legacy
Feb 18, 2010
3,924
1,794
118
Country
United Kingdom
Xprimentyl said:
From what I understood watching that, nothing ?racist? was indicative of the game as a whole and the trans ad made sense within the context of the fictional world they?ve created.
So, Dan Olson once called this the Thermian argument (in reference to the species of aliens from Galaxy Quest who were incapable of understanding the concept of fiction) and I think that's a fitting term so I'm going to use it too.

The fact that something "makes sense within a fictional world" doesn't actually matter because the fictional world is, as its name suggests, fictional. The fictional world is entirely within the control of its authors, who are creating it for a specific purpose which has nothing to do with the fiction itself. The purpose of the fictional world is to bring enjoyment to real people, people who actually exist.

The trans ad is not the product of a fictional world, it's the product of our real world in which it serves a real purpose, and look.. that purpose may not always be obvious. Sometimes the impact of a piece of media can be unintentional. This isn't one of those cases, the purpose is intentionally and explicitly one of mockery for the purposes of humour. The only room for interpretation here is the nebulous thread of questionable irony which allows cis people to pretend they aren't really laughing at the expense of actual people who exist.

This isn't neutrally representing an actual plausible future in which trans bodies are commodified. If anyone making that arugment was remotely sincere, they'd have long since realised they already live in a culture where "trans" bodies[footnote]i.e. how cis people imagine or think about trans bodies, which is basically incapable of getting beyond "oh no, a smexy woman might has a willy! My precious heterosexuality!"[/footnote] are commodified both as sources of humour for cis people to laugh at and, if you care to reach for the top shelf of the magazine aisle, in plenty of other ways.

So what what CDPR has said in official statements, and what I imagine most defenders will say once pressed beyond Thermian nonsense, essentially boils down to "oh, it's a commentary on exploitation. It's not actually exploitation, trust us!" And some people will be taken in by that, good for them. Most of them, I suspect, will be young and probably haven't lived through the past few decades of this culture's idea of "trans-representation" enough to realise that this "commentary" looks exactly like the real thing.

Frankly I don't think the vast majority of cis people, well meaning or otherwise, are culturally capable of representing trans or GNC people without commodification, that's why overt mockery doesn't always look like overt mockery, because if you've always been given permission to laugh at other people's bodies, it doesn't feel like a conditional permission any more, it just feels like what's supposed to happen. This is not to downplay the value of trying. A lot of "positive" trans representation is still commodified, but that's okay. Intent counts for a lot and commodities can spark joy. This does not spark joy.

Also, to top it all off, it doesn't make sense within the context of the fictional world they've created. The fictional world they've created is apparently one in which gender non-conformity is normalized (just not in a way that requires any actual representation) and yet the ad is based on shock value and incongruity.. very much, of course, like the way our own culture (in which gender non-conformity is not normalized) overwhelmingly depicts GNC people. Hmm.. solve that one Sherlock.

And yeah, I've kind of gone off on something which isn't even the focus of this thread, but goddamn cishets. Do we really have to live our entire lives around your fucking neuroses?
 

Silentpony_v1legacy

Alleged Feather-Rustler
Jun 5, 2013
6,760
0
0
CaitSeith said:
Is Cyberpunk 2077 released yet? No? Then you all better cite your sources, because all this sounds too sketchy.
Something like this then?
https://www.playstationlifestyle.net/2019/06/12/cyberpunk-2077-ad-controversy-response/#/slide/1
 

CaitSeith

Formely Gone Gonzo
Legacy
Jun 30, 2014
5,374
381
88
Silentpony said:
CaitSeith said:
Is Cyberpunk 2077 released yet? No? Then you all better cite your sources, because all this sounds too sketchy.
Something like this then?
https://www.playstationlifestyle.net/2019/06/12/cyberpunk-2077-ad-controversy-response/#/slide/1
Very grateful. I just saw the in-world poster, and now I see from where both sides are coming from.

When asked to address the concerns of those offended by the poster, Redesiuk said it was never the studio's "intention to offend anyone." The ad was meant to "show how oversexualization of people is bad. And that's it."

"I think that sexy bodies are sexy. Full disclosure: I love female bodies. I love male bodies. I love bodies in between. This is who I am. However, I hate it when it's used commercially. And that's exactly what we want to show by doing this exactly, by showing how big corporations use people's bodies against them."
I also find a pinch of irony in the intended subtextual message.
 
Aug 31, 2012
1,774
0
0
Eh, it's cyberpunk. It's like the real world but even shittier and with cooler toys.If you find some aspects of that world offensive, then...well, whatever.

As ppl have said, I think there's been about 3 or 4 articles of 1st year sociology degree "backlash", and a whole heap of backlash to the backlash.
 

Casual Shinji

Should've gone before we left.
Legacy
Jul 18, 2009
20,342
5,156
118
Dreiko said:
I did not say that anything is special about him being black that makes him more right. I mentioned it because those who usually do are now disregarding him. Never did I imply that him being black lends him or his argument more credibility, you just assumed I was doing that since that's where your head is at. You can show people being hypocritical in a person disregarding someone who they claim should be regarded more without agreeing that indeed they should be.
Considering your stance on these subjects, and you admitting you don't care about equality so long as you get your kicks, I'm gonna say BS.
 

Abomination

New member
Dec 17, 2012
2,939
0
0
It's dystopian, there are things in this setting that are supposed to make you uncomfortable. Saying that black guys being bad guys is racist stinks of itself as racism. I guess we better go back to Russian and Albanian gangsters to make everyone feel as though the villains are appropriately white.
 

CritialGaming

New member
Mar 25, 2015
2,170
0
0
Outrage for the sake of outrage pure and simple.

These "journalists" are always trying to find something to stir up some sort of outrage because it gets them clicks and cash by extension. Most of the time they create articles like this, not because they care or because they want the attention. the more people that freak out along side them, or against them, brings more traffic to the article and creates artificial legitimacy.

It's not a thing. Outrage culture is on the decline as everyone is slowly starting to get more and more sick of it. Even people who would have joined in on the outcry three years ago aren't doing it anymore because they are realizing that the movement has faded.

Case in point. Ms. "Everything is racist, everything is sexist, everything is homophobic" Anita Sarkessian and her little crazy feminist channel is basically out of business. Her channel produces almost nothing, gets next to zero views on the random videos that do pop up, and Anita herself is basically reduced to only a toxic twitter troll.

How much of a difference in the gaming industry did people expect this movement to make when it was based off false facts and skewed information from the very beginning?
 

WindKnight

Quiet, Odd Sort.
Legacy
Jul 8, 2009
1,828
9
43
Cephiro
Country
United Kingdom
Gender
Female
CaitSeith said:
Silentpony said:
CaitSeith said:
Is Cyberpunk 2077 released yet? No? Then you all better cite your sources, because all this sounds too sketchy.
Something like this then?
https://www.playstationlifestyle.net/2019/06/12/cyberpunk-2077-ad-controversy-response/#/slide/1
Very grateful. I just saw the in-world poster, and now I see from where both sides are coming from.

When asked to address the concerns of those offended by the poster, Redesiuk said it was never the studio's "intention to offend anyone." The ad was meant to "show how oversexualization of people is bad. And that's it."

"I think that sexy bodies are sexy. Full disclosure: I love female bodies. I love male bodies. I love bodies in between. This is who I am. However, I hate it when it's used commercially. And that's exactly what we want to show by doing this exactly, by showing how big corporations use people's bodies against them."
I also find a pinch of irony in the intended subtextual message.
As a side note. part of why some trans people took umbrage is that the game was not allowing trans player characters, and the devs worded it in a way that was like 'no trans period. SAo to be told 'you cant be in the game' and then see the ad, some got rather irked. Now trans and non binary playable characters are being implemented, which comes across as a step up, but some are a little... uncertain they'll handle the option well, not helped by a poorly worded statement on another subject.

Now, a big part of Cyberpunk in general is bionics and transhumanism - does replacing and upgrading your body with cybernetics etc make you something other than human? do you become less than human, or something more.

Cyberpunk the TTRPG represented this with Humanity - you had a humanity stat at character creation you set, and augmenting your body in any way cost humanity, with the idea you were developing mental illnesses and becoming less human as it dropped, and if it hit zero, your character was removed from your control and you made a new one. It hit the transhumanist theme, and acted as a way to keep munchkins and power gamers in check, so they couldn't just turn themselves into indestructible killing machines, though by giving transhumanism an explicitly an negative connotation.

Elegant for an 80's TTRPG, a bit unfortunate in the 21st century where you have amputees and disabled people using prosthetic limbs, hearing implants, pacemakers, etc.

An article talking about the use of nudity in the game had a CDPR rep explaining that the naked npc you were rescuing had 'profaned' her 'sacred body' with augments, and you needed to judge if she was 'too far gone' and not human anymore, indicating their bringing the humanity mechanic in unchanged, without really thinking about how it would come across in the modern day.
 

Hawki

Elite Member
Legacy
Mar 4, 2014
9,651
2,176
118
Country
Australia
Gender
Male
So, not that I care about Cyberpunk, but looking at the ad in question, I'd have just thought it was a soda drink advertising that sixteen flavours were mixed in. 0_0
 

Fieldy409_v1legacy

New member
Oct 9, 2008
2,686
0
0
To me this is just stupid artifical controversy on both sides to get clicks. A few articles designed to trigger fanboys because that pulls clicks vs a bunch of youtubers defending it against the evil SJW hordes because its great fodder to get clicks from their anti-sjw audience.