Character Design Debate; Beauty or Lust?

[Paragon Fury]

Alright, so I was having a...debate to be diplomatic the other night over character design in games with a friend. It started off on Street Fighter and eventually wound up in League of Legends. The part where we left off and had some disagreement was over Sona's design intention and place in the character flavor of the game. To understand the question though, a little background;

Character design in games is supposed to inform you a great deal about you're supposed to feel about a character and what a character is all about. Two characters with the same body type for instance can be portrayed in very different ways to get different effects.

Human Female characters in League typically fall into one of three "flavors" (I'll use the terms we used to describe them);

Lust - EX: Akali, Ahri, Miss Fortune, Morgana
Beauty - EX: Leona, Diana, Lissandra, Kayle
"Average/Reality" - EX: Lux, Taliyah, Riven

I feel like the categories should be relatively self-explanatory.

The sticking point was with Sona; she is presented as, dressed as and acts like the typical "Beauty" character - not someone to be lusted after, but a woman to be admired and stood in awe of, like a work of art (a good comparison is to how Princesses/Queens/Empresses are typically described/ascribed traits in fiction).

But then Sona also has the body of AND dress of someone supposed to uh, get the blood flowing.
Between us, it was a bit of a stalemate - I think that her overall demeanor puts her away from characters mainly meant to be lusted after, while my friend argued that you can't give a character a body and dress like that and not mean for them to a lust object.

REFERENCE MATERIAL

Spoiler

Lust Designs

Ahri

Miss Fortune

Beauty Designs

Leona

Lissandra

Average/Regular Designs

Taliyah

Riven

Sona's Design and Splash Art

 

[Zhukov]

Okay. Well at least this one has some meaty discussion value to it.

That said, I'm not quite on board with your premise. Does beauty not frequently inspire lust? Is that which inspires lust not usually beautiful?

As for your "average/regular/reality" examples, they all look like very pretty characters to me. I mean, Lux, seriously? I can see someone not being into Taliyah and her majestic nose, but Lux is about as mainstream pretty as they come.

 

[Ender910_v1legacy]

I think you raise some interesting ideas, although I think basing your concept on League of Legends characters kind of defeats the purpose if you're trying to approach this from an artistic angle. The developers for that kind of a game clearly planned out the art direction, probably with a marketing team giving them a model almost exactly like what you're trying to describe.

A better approach might be to take characters from a variety of different kinds of games. Since I can think of a pretty good variety of categories from various games that kind of break that model.

Hell, just using the stereotypical female barbarian concept from Conan or Dark Sun is its own kind of category (physical fitness/brawn).

Spoiler

 

[Prime_Hunter_H01]

I would say that the difference is more how the character is presented, and I can see that with your definitions that Sona is a bit on the line. Her outfit is revealing, though the face could be seen as "come hither" or as a smirk. Since it is a long dress it feels more like an elegant outfit compared to short kimono, or pirate crop top. Though the revealing nature does not match the armor and robes of your beauties, or your averages.

I agree with Zhukov in that the response to beauty is lust, form unimportant. Though I see why you label of Average makes sense. To compare its shifting a graph not shifting along a graph. While all these girls are petty, the difference is are they top end human pretty, or goddesses.

I would give you a vote for the beauty in the end, think of some clothing in real life. Formal and normal clothing can be somewhat revealing without being intentionally for attracting attention. Her design has her in a long dress, despite being low cut it is not completely on the level of the first 2 which both offer different specific types of fan service.

 

[Darth Rosenberg]

This is a strange thread... As others have pointed out, for the me the distinction between something like 'beauty' and 'lust' is both completely arbitrary as well as wholly subjective. For most they'd surely be irrevocably intertwined.

For me, none of those three 'flavours' matter a damn given generally I prefer realism, which I can also find beautiful and lustful.

So I guess my answer to "Beauty or Lust [or realism/perceived normality]?" is: none of the three and all of the three - depending on example and contexts. Gimme characters who fit their worlds and game's aesthetic. Trip in Enslaved was endearing because of her character, and whilst I'd normally find her design 'lustful' [and beautiful], I felt it simply didn't fit the world around her, so there was significant dissonance going on which marred her character.

 

[Nick Cave]

Okay. Well at least this one has some meaty discussion value to it.

That said, I'm not quite on board with your premise. Does beauty not frequently inspire lust? Is that which inspires lust not usually beautiful?

I can sort of understand where he's coming from. Cate Blanchett is beautiful, but more in an "elven goddess" than a "cute girl next door" kind of way, whereas say Kristen Steward would be the opposite, who could be placed in the "heroin chic" type of look. if you don't feel like googling it, "Heroin Chic" is the kind is sweaty, heavy, lustful, drugged out ecstasy-moaning type of sexyness.

They're all different type of sexualisations, but the key thing is that they're all still different ways to be, well I guess "beautiful".

OnT: It's interesting to look at the type of woman usually getting a heavy representation in games, because I feel it very much reflects the culture playing them. With the women (the romantically interesting ones, not talking about old crones here) usually being early 20's (sometimes younger), usually being honest and kind, with a hint of a sense of humor, though almost always laughing at other peoples jokes, rather than coming up with her own. Usually a bit more boyishly dressed, often with tight pants of skirts and epsecially dresses. Completly disinterested in marriage (or atleast, not hint of interest) and only hints at relationships. Usually self-sacrificing and wanting to do the right thing, rather than having own internal specific goals. Also usually a brown ponytail, funnily enough.

In specific comparisons, Characters like Yennefer from the Witcher very much go against this grain, having a strong internal will, being older (not just actually being older, but rather in looks, demeanor etc.) and having her own goals, rather than relying on either the main (almost always male) character, or a non-specific "right-thing-to-do" morality, if she's the protagonist. Funnily enough from the same franchise Ciri and Triss fit into the usual "prominent vidya female character" style.

In the Mass Effect games, Tali and Liara (in the first game) both fit in, whereas Miranda belongs rather to the older Cate Blanchett-beauty, and Jack belonging the the afromentioned heroin-chic. Ashley fits into a similar style to the usual "prominent female vidya character", but to a more swearing, experienced, "gruff soldier" archetype. Rose of Sharon Cassidy from Fallout: New Vegas fall into that trope perfectly as well.

 

[nomotog_v1legacy]

So is just two choices then? Because that is kind of the issue.

Also this sounds a lot like the virgin whore complex.

 

[happyninja42]

I'm not sure why the OP seems to think that Beauty and Lust are mutually exclusive. I can find a character visually beautiful, AND also lust after them. Hell it's usually BECAUSE of said beautiful depiction that I have a lust for them.

It's not mandatory for a "lusty" character to be dressed like your typical stripper or whatever, and exclude characters that are designed with a beautiful theme in mind, to also inspire lust.

I just....I'm puzzled by your concepts OP.

Beauty is, generally, something, or in this case someone, that you find attractive, literally. They attract your attention, and draw your gaze to them. Their beauty, is an effect of how they look. LUST, is simply the physical side effect of said beauty. The desire to be with that beautiful thing.

So I say that Soma is both Lustful AND Beautiful. Because she is. She has grace and poise in most of her drawings, but she's also very sensual and arrousing. You can have both of these things

 

[Paragon Fury]

To answer a question asked/implied a few times here;

The difference implied between Lust/Beauty, at least in my opinion and the way I meant it, is in the way one person I knew in college put it;

One is the one you want to fuck, the other is the one you want to make love to.

Lust characters are the kinds of people like Ahri/MF etc. who you'd see and the first thought would be "I'd hit that" and they typically have what people call the "unrealistic"/impossible bodies.

Beauty characters are the kinds of people like Leona/Lissandra (minus the ice witch part obviously) where if you saw them you might want to have sex with them, but it would be your first thought nor the most overriding - it would more likely be simple awe of how beautiful and damn near perfect they are.

Unlike "Lust" characters, Beauty have bodies that are found in real life, though typically only among those really trying for the look and the wealthy. The only really "unrealistic" part of them is the hair typically, being far too long to be common/easily managed.

Side note; I didn't intend to mean that "Average/Realistic" characters weren't pretty - they. What I mean by that is they typically have very common bodies or very obtainable IRL bodies that most anyone could hope to obtain and typically wouldn't be that uncommon to see someone of similar physical attractiveness on a relatively common basis.

 

[default]

Why divide it into only two categories? It's more like a spectrum, or a bunch of different spectrums based on each individual's aesthetic and sexual sensibilities. Aesthetics (and how they are intertwined with the sex drive) are more complex than a binary placement of HOT or BEAUTIFUL.

Sona is a mix between the two, meant to inspire lust and awe. Like a classical depiction of Aphrodite.

 

[CritialGaming]

snip

What an interesting discussions you have with friends.

To answer your overall theme though, if you are to file Sona into a mentioned category she is a beauty character. While she is wearing a cleavage revealing dress, her bossom is not the focus of the character. To me her hair, and keyboard/harpe/equipment thing is much more the focal point in her design. In game her hair is vibrant and all over the place, calling attention away from her chest. Even in the promotion art you linked here show an upward angle, putting her harp, dress, and hair in much more contrast. If they were going for a Lust look, they could have easily moved the camera above the character and have the player be drawn to looking down at her cleavage and breasts. But that wasn't the choice here.

As a result, Sona falls into the beauty category. IMO.

 

[Marik2]

I don't see Ahri like that. I see her being beautiful.

 

[Erttheking]

Think I'm going to have to go with lust, seeing as her boobs are the size of her freaking head.

Though to be frank, I prefer the beauty of characters like Rek'Sai.

Spoiler

http://news.cdn.leagueoflegends.com/public/images/pages/rs/img/RS_WP.jpg

 

[default]

Honestly, how awful are female character designs when the deepest debate we can have about them is how specifically we want to stick our dicks inside their vaginas

Good variety

attractiveness is just one very shallow aspect of character design. this is hardly the 'deepest debate we can have'.

 

[go-10]

I don't know much about LoL and would love to learn more about your Street Fighter conclusions. What category did Vega and Sagat fall into? But back on topic I'm well aware of Ahri and her lustful/teasing/seductive personality and looking at Sona she has a very similar design however Ahri's personality is what sets her up as a sex symbol if you ask me. Sona from what I understand is a mute and very priest like, so cleavage and a tight dress don't really sell the whole concept of lust when I look at her, regular design I guess she could fit there since most harp players of the Roman Empire wore similar dresses but I think beauty is what the developers intended and honestly I think that's what fits her best.

To me she's Ahri's counterpart similar but not the same.

 

[nomotog_v1legacy]

Honestly, how awful are female character designs when the deepest debate we can have about them is how specifically we want to stick our dicks inside their vaginas

Good variety

It's not even good verity if we are doing a porno.

 

[Thaluikhain]

What was the debate about, though? Whether being, um, actively sexy or whatever was preferable, or which works for a certain game or character?

 

[CritialGaming]

Honestly, how awful are female character designs when the deepest debate we can have about them is how specifically we want to stick our dicks inside their vaginas

Good variety

Variety has nothing to do with it.

League characters, aren't really characters. At least mostly. They are avatars that most people pick for one of two reasons:

1. How attractive or cool they look.
2. Their actual abilities in game.

Nobody picks a character in League because they prefer the lore of that character, or that characters personality, because like Overwatch the characters don't have any. There is no relevance to any of these characters in game, they could all be blob monsters and it wouldn't change a damage thing to the game.

So these kinds of discussions are all the 13-year-old boys who play LoL can actually have, because there is no further depth to the characters.