Characters you thought "deserved better"

[Ratty]

Sounds interesting, I'll consider giving it a shot. Your explanation of it's formulaic nature and format makes sense, I suppose it's more of a first-world problem of having the time to actually watch a whole lot of series and expect a certain kind of continuity in them. I want to say that series having a connecting story line from one episode to the next is a new thing, but I know that's not true. The original Dr. Who-series that ran from the 50's to the 80's had one storyline connecting sequential episodes, together in couples of 3-6 or something like that (I recently glanced over a list over old episodes, didn't look too carefully at it).
.

there are some connecting storylines...and in a way I actually find the formulaic nature....sort of comforting in a way, just something you throw on on a sunday night or after work to watch for 40min, its definitely outdated I suppose (for the reasons stated) but in a way it doesn't mean you're dying to binge on it in one weekend, you think "oh whats this episode going to be about?....oh Picard and his archeologist girlfreind?....meh skip"

Comforting is a good word for it I think. It's un-stressful and uncomplicated, you can just let yourself be carried away for about half an hour. As for ongoing storylines there were a few, particularly in the later seasons. But especially early on they were written in an unobtrusive way that wasn't hard to follow and usually didn't interfere with the "A" plot of an episode. Both of Worf's main plotlines [footnote]

Spoiler

His family dishonor and his tense relationship with his estranged son.

[/footnote] actually carried over and increased in intensity with him when he joined the crew of DS9.

Also funny thing about that Risa episode. The writer originally wanted to make Risa a sort of dark carnival planet and have Picard go into a holodeck attraction to "Face his greatest fear!" which Picard assumed would be fighting Romulans or something. Instead it just makes him confront his fear of getting older and being stuck behind a desk as an Admiral rather than out exploring as a Captain. Pretty similar to Kirk's concern in Wrath of Khan. That was rejected and instead Risa was re-written as a perfect sex resort planet and the episode became about the Captain getting laid lol. Incidentally that archeologist character "Vash" (no relation to the Stampede as far as I know) showed up again in Q's only appearance on DS9.

Sounds interesting, I'll consider giving it a shot. Your explanation of it's formulaic nature and format makes sense, I suppose it's more of a first-world problem of having the time to actually watch a whole lot of series and expect a certain kind of continuity in them. I want to say that series having a connecting story line from one episode to the next is a new thing, but I know that's not true. The original Dr. Who-series that ran from the 50's to the 80's had one storyline connecting sequential episodes, together in couples of 3-6 or something like that (I recently glanced over a list over old episodes, didn't look too carefully at it).

I suppose with modern technology that allows recording of episodes at basically no expense, along with Netflix, HBO, Hulu and other less honest options allows people more freedom to watch the series they want to at a time that suits them, makes it easier to follow the plot of a series more thoroughly.

Yeah, there were serialized shows but aside from soap operas they were the exception rather than the norm I think. Also Dr. Who is a little different because it was tied to one network, the BBC. While if I'm remembering right Star Trek TNG and similarly formulaic/episodic shows from around the time, like Hercules the Legendary Journeys, were syndicated to lots of different networks. So they didn't always have control over how or when the episodes would be shown. But yeah the way we watch TV now is very different. A show being formulaic is less noticeable and less likely to bother you if you only see one 40 minute episode a week.

 

[Vault101]

Comforting is a good word for it I think. It's un-stressful and uncomplicated, you can just let yourself be carried away for about half an hour.

exactly!

and while people have said serialisation is outdated...I think for a show like Trek it does allow them to experiment with random ideas

one episode were on a strange planet...the other were in a sherlock holmes story, one of my favorites is actually one that involves Doctor Crusher's "universe" shrinking to the point where its just her and Picard on the enterprise and theres nothing odd about that at all

you can fuck around without having to care about a main plotline

 

[Imperioratorex Caprae]

yeah the character could have gotten better had Crosby stuck it out...everything was shitty in season 1, Yarr stands out because it was season 1 (though she wasn't handled that great but more on that in a sec) but no one had much faith in season 1 at the time...in retrospect it wasn't the best career move on her part but how would you know that at the time? whos to say TNG wouldn't get passed 2 seasons and be known forever as a bizarre joke? (or "I don't know I kind of liked it" at best")

Its hard to see the future of course, easy to look at the past, but personally I would have stayed on just to see how far it would go, but thats me. I'm sure Crosby kicks herself just a bit looking back on this.

I won't comment on the original series but in regards to TNG...

Roddenberry had some nice ideas...but thats what really what they were.."ideas" [footnote/](in fact I once saw an interesting review saying Roddenberry has the same "idea" of the federation as Worf does of the Klingon Empire...they believe in the idea, but don't see what they actually are...I thought that was fitting)[/footnote] his characters were still subject to all kinds of BS (not solely the fault of him of coarse) particularly the female characters I mean don't get me started on the baby episode or the "fight in the arena" episode

Yeah, there were a lot of missteps, scifi is a general minefield of tropes and whatnot. Funny how you mention the Federation, it amazes me how many people hold it up as if the Federation is some majorly enlightened system when its just as messed up internally as anything we have today. Every crisis they've had, its always come about that the federation was wrong, at fault or the instigator of whatever event aside from V'Ger and the Probe from IV.
Yeah its odd, but I felt that Gene wanted people to accept each other for who they were, not skin color/gender, and thats why he pushed for some things. Doesn't mean he got it all correct, nor am I possibly 100% accurate with how I feel.


[quote/]Anyway, Denise Crosby f'ed up Yar, and the writers more or less did what they could with her in the alternate universe and Sela story. It wasn't pretty, it wasn't supposed to be. It was designed to get in your face and show you how screwed up and immoral the Romulans are.[/quote]
I did say that Yar's best moments came after she died...look I LOVED yesterdays enterprise, and I have no problem with the romu-yar thing, [footnote/]excpet for the "you did this Picard" part since while he did the circumstances were...different[/footnote] its just that I'm personally a bit disturbed by the implications, I tend to find rape and servitude a bit upsetting...hell that was probably the point wasn't it? my issue was that Yesterdays enterprise gave a nice sense of closure for the character whereas redemption 2 (for me, my opinion) undid that

I'm not blaming anyone in particular, this is really just me[/quote]

Of course, rape and servitude is disturbing as hell, its much safer to explore these topics fictionally than in real life. I'd much rather keep the concepts to fiction and never see or hear of them in real life again, but that will not happen in my lifetime.
I feel sometimes we're way too critical of a lot of entertainment media, expect it to be a model of society as it should be. Its great to have goals and aspirations, but sometimes I think it goes a bit far to critique every little detail and measure it up against some social yardstick. Sometimes x is just x, sometimes we should enjoy things as they are instead of picking apart every detail looking for y.
Don't get me wrong I'm definitely not saying that we shouldn't aspire for more. We should. I'm saying we don't need to denigrate everything previous just because it doesn't match up with how we see things should be.
BTW you and I seem to have some back and forths now and again, I do want to say I enjoy our talks and you do help me settle my own viewpoints.

 

[Johnny Impact]

Spoiler: Perdido Street Station

Pretty much everyone except Yagharek. Lin has her mind eaten and ends up worse than dead. Isaac is a broken shell of a man consumed by guilt and grief over the part he played in what happened to Lin. Several people are dead....a memorable ending, not a happy one.

It's hard to feel sorry for Yagharek. He committed a serious crime but, instead of feeling remorse, spends the whole book whining about how he didn't deserve to be caught and punished.

 

[Vault101]

Its hard to see the future of course, easy to look at the past, but personally I would have stayed on just to see how far it would go, but thats me. I'm sure Crosby kicks herself just a bit looking back on this.

I agree she should have stuck it out...still she did pop up those few times so mabye there wasn't too much ill will on either side

all that said though I admit I don't like criticising actors...of coarse some are just better than others, but its easy for people to sit and tear them apart or debate over what they should/shouldn't have done but while I'm not saying we should pull out the violins for the actors of the world ...we weren't there at the time, making a good career move isn't always easy and regardless of your ability your really at mercy of the writing/editing/direction, while some actors can make anything good (ie patrick stewart) the middle of the road ones don't always get the best break...

..interestingly I think Crosby seems a lot more comfortable playing seila then she ever did playing Yar

[quote/]
Of course, rape and servitude is disturbing as hell, its much safer to explore these topics fictionally than in real life. I'd much rather keep the concepts to fiction and never see or hear of them in real life again, but that will not happen in my lifetime.
[/quote]

my other issue with her end was I get vibes of "babies make everything better" (another example see: baby episode) which...no...they do not

seila actuallys says [i/]"they gave her her life, they gave her a home! they gave her a child!"[/i] <- I have no problem with that line coming from her because its very much in character...but again I do wonder if were suposed to see the whole ordeal as "not as bad" because she got a baby...

I mean if you have a child through terrible means the love you have for that child and the means he/she came about are entirely separate things and should be treated as such, the ends don't justify the means and all that

 

[Veylon]

Did I mention that Pinkie Pie, Rainbow Dash, Applejack, Rarity, and Fluttershy deserve a break? After five straight key episodes of them learning valuable life lessons about their Elements of Harmony, they were all made useless and disposable in-exchange of the over-empowerment of Twilight Sparkle.

They literally grew and developed as characters, just to have all of that development flushed down the toilet just to make way for Twilight's godlike power levels!

Hardly the first time. The writers very rarely think twice about the cliches they use. This scene is usually done this way and this way we will do it! Even if the setting, setup, and characterization militate against it.

A Hero has to confront The Bad Guy in a duel and so Twilight is the automatic designee, even though it's a friendship-based show, there are several better potential warriors, and there's no need for the confrontation anyway.

And even though she's the star, Twilight gets shortchanged as well. She's always been the mastermind and boss of the team, always been the one making the decisions of the group, always the leader. She's the one with the title and crown and infused with destiny. Wouldn't it be a great character development for her to realize that sometimes she isn't the most qualified pony to deal with something? Imagine that it comes to the big showdown and the villain is coming to face her, calls out her name, and it's one of her friends who's there to face them. Wouldn't subverting the dramatic moment make quite the twist? Destiny is calling, but Twilight is content to be on the sidelines because she has confidence in her friend as her better at the key moment.

Or, heck, why not take all that power she was buzzing with and split it between her friends. We all wanted Alicorn Mane Six, right? She can take a moment on the side to recognize that she's different from the other Princesses because the power she wields isn't a solitary power, it's a power of friendship, a power that must be shared to have any meaning. Though this might work better if she'd been asking herself what kind of Princess she is throughout the season and have the answer subtly hinted at.

 

[Redryhno]

OT- I suppose the only suitable character I can think of is maybe Lucy from Fairy Tail.

Well, they've also established that Item-Based Magic has a limit to what it can do, and Erza, while supremely strong, is going to be "outscaled" by Grey, Natsu, Gajeel, and Wendy eventually simply because their magic doesn't exactly have a cap like herself. And keep in mind that Lucy's only been a real wizard for something like a year or something in-universe, whereas the other six I've listed were either raised by magical beings, or grew up surrounded by literal solidified magic. She's the weakest of them because she's the least experienced, but is already one of the strongest in the world. Comparatively, she's got the short end of the stick, but I honestly hate the majority of her character traits, so I don't care and she hasn't had the time the others have.

Also keep in mind I haven't watched or read it in a while, since somewhere around the Tournament arc, so my opinion may be really outdated.

snip

Fucking Anders. He did not deserve to go from Awakenings Alistair to Whiny McShootyBitch #9856752146...Neither did Justice, but he screwed up a bit choosing to possess Anders and his Templar-hating, but hilarious, personality. It wasn't so much Justice being bad, as Anders hatred of all things shiny, stoned, and blue-tinged twisting Justice's honestly noble...ideal and personality into the Vengeance we meet in DA2.

 

[Jolly Co-operator]

From JoJo's Bizarre Adventure, parts 1 and 3:

Spoiler

Jonathan Joestar. He sacrifices himself to take Dio down in the sinking ship with him, and yet Dio still possesses his body and uses it for evil later in part 3. I thought it was a cool plot point, but it really feels like an ignoble way to go for Jonathan. He's the one in his bloodline that started the family tradition of fighting evil and bizarre adventures (hooray for title drop), and yet he has the shortest part to star in, and his body ends up as nothing but a tool for the villain.

I'll second that. Although you have to admit that his death was one of the most impactful for readers/viewers, simply because of how nice the guy was. Also, his rapid-punching moment is the SICKEST one in the whole series.

Yes, I LOVE the Sunlight Yellow Overdrive! I still go back and watch episode 6 to see that moment every now and then

While it's on my mind, here's another one from JoJo, Part 4

Spoiler

Joseph Joestar. Joseph is by far my favorite JoJo, and it feels like the author was determined to knock him down so many pegs that he fractured the Earth's tectonic plates upon landing. When we last saw him in part three, he was a man in his late 60's, yet had barely lost any of the vigor and physical capability from his youth. Fast-forward 10 years later to part 4, and he's now a feeble old man, barely able to hear, and requires a cane to walk. He can barely even use his Stand properly anymore, and he's made out to be a bit of a burden most of the time. While all of that is perfectly normal for a man his age, isn't his mastery of Hamon supposed to have significantly slowed his aging? In addition to becoming so much weaker, we also find out that he was at some point unfaithful to his wife. Cheating on his spouse seems completely out of character for Joseph, who was previously quite noble, even though he didn't always seem that way outwardly. I don't know what made Araki suddenly want to besmirch the reputation of one of the most beloved JoJo's like that, but I guess he did a pretty good job.

 

[Black Reaper]

Seligman from Nymphomaniac
The movie is about the titular Nymphomaniac telling her story to a guy called Seligman, who found her beaten up in an alleyway while some metal played, they are both pretty interesting characters who are pretty fleshed out in the film's long runtime

It was pretty good, it proved to me that a movie can still engage you despite featuring people boning for quite a bit of the runtime, the boning is used to set the tone and stuff and not to give you a boner, unlike some other really crappy films i've seen , like the turd that is Adele's Life, which somehow has a 7 on IMDB

Seligman is revealed to be an Asexual Virgin near the end, he says he doesn't lust for sex, but is kinda curious about it

After the titular Nymphomaniac finishes telling her story, she says that she'd like to stop being a Nymphomaniac since it's caused her a lot of trouble, and she's tired and wants to sleep, she also says Seligman is probably the only friend she's ever had, Seligman approves, and leaves after turning off the telling her she's not going to be disturbed

Spoiler: the movie turns to shit from this point forwards

After the camera lingers a bit on the door, Seligman enters again and he is revealed to be pantsless, he approaches Joe(Nymphomaniac), and attempts to rape her, when she fights back, he says "I don't understand, you've slept with thousands of men", Joe then shoots him and leaves the apartment

Way to ruin a great movie with the last 2 minutes, they destroyed Seligman's character in the end for no good reason, just "Lol he's a virgin"
Easily the most disappointing thing i've seen all year just because of the ending

Spoiler: Storm Dragon's quote

A few months ago, I watched an anime on Netflix called Kaze no Stigma. Overall, I think the show was mediocre at best, and I would have stopped watching it pretty early if I hadn't liked the main character, Kazuma, so much; the dude was a grade-A badass. Short version: He was born to a family of fire mages, but he couldn't firebend, so his family disowned him. He disappears for something like a decade, then returns as a preposterously powerful wind mage who can kick a person's ass without even taking his hands out of his pockets. He was also a snarky troll who had a sarcastic quip for just about everything. The father (or maybe grandfather, I can't remember) of the show's female lead (I can't remember her name, so I'll just call her "Stereotypical Hotheaded Tsundere Would-Be Love Interest") tries to play matchmaker and pair up his (grand?)daughter with Kazuma. Stereotypical Hotheaded Tsundere Would-Be Love Interest, being a stereotypical hotheaded tsundere would-be love interest, pretends to hate Kazuma and lashes out violently at him for the slightest perceived transgression, but she can never lay so much as a finger on him because the dude so vastly outclasses her in combat skills. What's more, Kazuma will say and do things to intentionally make Stereotypical Hotheaded Tsundere Would-Be Love Interest fly off the handle, because her impotent rage amuses him. Here's an example: Kazuma says a thing, S.H.T.W.B.L.I. takes offense and tries to kick him in the face, Kazuma catches her ankle with one hand, then comments on how it might be a bad idea to try to deliver a high kick while wearing a skirt.

So in answer to the original question: I think Kazuma deserved a better anime to star in.

That sounds like an awesome protagonist, i really want to watch that anime now

 

[Tiamattt]

Gohan from DBZ.

First character to go Super Saiyan 2, strongest non-fused character in the Buu arc by Toriyama's word (he's stronger than Super Saiyan 3 Goku), but if you saw him in anything post DBZ or any of the movies you would never guess.

This kid took on Freeza at 4 years old, attained Super Saiyan at 8, mastered it by 9, attained Super Saiyan 2 that same year and killed a being his father, one of the strongest fighters the universe had ever seen at that point, cold not. After some years of peace and lack of training, he gets a power boost that makes him so strong he's taking on a galaxy destroying monster without even using energy attacks.

What happens to him pretty much every instance onward? Slapped aside in one or two hits. The kid deserves better.

He had the gall to settle down and actually stay with his family instead of ditching them to eat, sleep and train 24/7/365. And in the DB universe if you're not constantly kicking ass or getting your ass kicked you're only getting weaker! (I'm joking but I have a bad feeling that stuff is actually true in their world)

 

[ScreamingViking]

Thane Krios from Mass Effect, specifically his death in the third installment. I'm not upset that he died, that was fitting with the character and had been alluded to ever since we met him. I just object to him being used to make Kai Leng look more impressive and then never mentioned again. After Thane dies you go back to the Normandy and people only want to talk about how you almost shot Kaiden/Ashley, completely ignoring the party member (or even love interest) who just kicked the bucket. Nobody even mentions it.

 

[Reaper195]

Johnson at the end of Halo 3. Such a bullshit way to die for his character by being lasered by 343. I was outright expecting him to go down with a gun in each hand and screaming obscenities at either Flood or Covenant.

 

[Kyber]

A particular character in Berserk who if I say his name would spoil the death scene.

Spoiler

Judeau

He's a friendly chap who just like the rest of the Band of the Hawk gets transported to Hell to serve as a sacrifice for Griffith's rise to becoming part of the Godhand. Just like everyone else he dies, but he does so while trying to protect Caska. And as she tries to drag his shattered body to safety, Judeau's dying thoughts are of how Caska will never know that he loved her.

It's pretty damn heart rendering.

I think we can also say just about every single character unfortunate enough to get stuck in that scene. Especially the one who was never the same again after it and still hasn't recovered. I think you know who I'm talking about. It...just seems so unfair.

God, I hope they get off the boat one day and the one you are talking about get backs to normal, annoying to see such a great character transformed into that, annoying yet brilliant.
The Eclipse still stands as one of my favourite scenes ever, I don't mean that I enjoy watching it, I mean the idea and what it means to the story. So much raw imagery and emotion in that whole part, it changes the playing field completely.

 

[DementedSheep]

Well, first on my mind is that Anders from Dragon Age really didn't deserve turning into Whiny McHatesTemplars in DA 2. He seemed like such a cool character in Awakenings. Wait, scratch that. Justice deserved this even less.

Justice was a cool guy. His companion quest was helping a grieving widow. He was a stand-up dude, representing everything about his name. Then the sequel happened. Anders and justice "fused" together for some stupid reason, and was corrupted into a spirit of Vengeance which doesn't make any sense to me. Wasn't how the fade works is that Demons are always bad and Spirits are always good? Are there any good demons? no. So why should there be bad spirits? It doesn't even matter any more. Instead of incorporating both peronalities, the final character didn't seem like either. Just an idiot doing stupid things and refusing to follow Hawke's advice.

I was under the impression that demons and spirits are the same thing just with a different mindset. So demons are obsessed with mortal world and tend to embody negative emotions while spirits are content in the fade and tend to embody ideals. I think Anders even had a conversion with Justice about how he could possibly turn into a demon and Justice gets defensive about it.

but yeah, I didn't like DA2 Anders.

 

[Frankster]

Fellow dbz fans mentioned Tien, for me its Yamcha.
In dragon ball yamcha had a nice character arc+ was one of gokus buddies and one of those wearing the orange togi so looked like was part of the main cast. The way he and Bulma ended up at the end was rather sweet too, only to be utterly ruined by the following series.

Come dbz well...Yeah the character has been turned into a joke to whom everything bad seems to happen xD
I still liked the character though, but it's tough in the dbz fandom where a fair few amount of peeps honestly sees a characters "power level" as the real indication of how worthy that character is.


Otherwise for Game of Thrones: the hound (the tv series).

There's plenty of characters in this series that qualify but in the series, I thought the hounds death was a shame even if it was thematically fitting for a man of his lifestyle. He had a very enjoyable relationship with Arya going on and I'd have loved to see more episodes of it, it's also worth noting reason he died was to protect Arya from what he perceived as being sellswords or w/e working for the lannisters (which was a fairly understandable assumption given the circumstances..).

It also doesn't help that the normally awesome Brienne came off as a prick there, ignoring Arya actually saying flat out she doesn't want to leave with her and being the first to pull out her sword and attack, all that for an oath made to a dead woman that would see Arya end up back in king's landing which would see her dropped in a nest of metaphorical vipers, from which she originally ran away from in the first place.
As much as I love Brienne, she was utterly in the wrong here in every conceivable way.

Anyways tldr I'd have loved seeing more Hound/Arya adventures, Brienne fucked up in killing him and failed with Arya to boot (though convenient circumstances saw Arya find a boat for Braavos... Considering the setting it's just as likely she would have stumbled upon a group of thugs on the way and raped/killed, all because Brienne killed her protector).

 

[StoleitfromKilgore]

Yoshimo from "Shadows of Amn".

Spoiler

He gets killed off too early. Of course, without his unwilling betrayal and subsequent death, his character might lack some of what I like about him.

Aside from being the only good pure thief availabe in the game, most of his dialogue was spot-on. No long-winded exposition. A short explanation here, a vague warning there, a question about the ancestry of the player etc. I especially found the latter piece of dialogue to be very memorable, mostly because it did such a good job of telling the player about Yoshimo. He is not somebody quick to judge and generally somebody who mostly stays in the background. The fact that his character is well interwoven with the story certainly didn't hurt.

Edit: Also, several characters from the "Prince of Nothing"-fantasy-books. It is hard to say, who is off worse: Cnaiür, Achamian or Xinemus. And that's just the main characters. For people, who never want to read the series:

Spoiler

Xinemus is tortured and loses his eyes, falls into major depression and eventually dies. Achamian is constantly tortured by nightmares and painful decisions and Cnaiür is a madmen, who acted as a puppet for another in killing his own father.

If it wasn't for Kellhus, I would say this is one of the greates fantasy-series, I have ever read. Unfortunately the character comes across as a deus ex machina a bit too often. Being "inhuman" is one thing, but this also acts as an excuse for preternatural fighting capabilities. Training is one thing, but there are a few parts in the book, where his survival just comes across as cheap as it often is for "heroes".

I still wholeheartedely recommend the series. It's just so well written and most of the characters are believable.

 

[Twinrehz]

just something you throw on on a sunday night or after work to watch for 40min, its definitely outdated I suppose (for the reasons stated) but in a way it doesn't mean you're dying to binge on it in one weekend, you think "oh whats this episode going to be about?....oh Picard and his archeologist girlfreind?....meh skip"

Comforting is a good word for it I think. It's un-stressful and uncomplicated, you can just let yourself be carried away for about half an hour. As for ongoing storylines there were a few, particularly in the later seasons. But especially early on they were written in an unobtrusive way that wasn't hard to follow and usually didn't interfere with the "A" plot of an episode. Both of Worf's main plotlines actually carried over and increased in intensity with him when he joined the crew of DS9.

A show being formulaic is less noticeable and less likely to bother you if you only see one 40 minute episode a week.

True, but I had access to the entire series, and often watched more than one episode at a time. It made all the minor flaws a bit more obvious. I try to tell myself that I'm done with the series, but I can't help but feel a twinge of interest in the ongoing remastering released on blu-ray. Apparently there's some extended cut involved as well...

Incidentally that archeologist character "Vash" showed up again in Q's only appearance on DS9.

I thought it was quite weird that she was basically recruited to be a part of the Q continuum. Same with that other girl, whose parents had run from the continuum.

 

[beastro]

Michael in Lost. Does a lot of stuff to save his kid, a lot doesn't go his way and he gets branded a traitor for the rest of the show and condemned to Island hell while characters like Locke and Ben do unjustifiable shit often with bad moral compasses guiding them and get happy endings.

The Step dad in 2012. I haven't watched the show myself, but watched it around family watching it and he saves the heroes family and keeps them alive until the end when he gets killed off and forgotten a second later so the hero and his ex and get back together.

Can't blame Yar's lack of development on anyone but Denise Crosby, who in essence put a phaser on kill and shot the character's future because apparently she was allergic to money. Before you say recast, the series was already a big risk and recasting her may have put TNG in an early grave if they screwed it up. So instead they decided to use her as the "anyone can die, not just redshirts" example. Sucks, but that was how things worked.

Her death wasn't the problem, the episode they chose to build her death around was. It was a bad, at best mediocre ep and it dragged her death down with it.

For games, it would be Zalbaag. He's a decent guy that happens to become an antagonist and winds up fighting you in the end because of being mindfucked and given a gem to use.

Yarr stands out because it was season 1 (though she wasn't handled that great but more on that in a sec) but no one had much faith in season 1 at the time...in retrospect it wasn't the best career move on her part but how would you know that at the time? whos to say TNG wouldn't get passed 2 seasons and be known forever as a bizarre joke? (or "I don't know I kind of liked it" at best")

The only thing that saved TNG was Gene dying during season 2 and allowing sensible minds to finally save the series from his wish-fufillment obsession and finally bring drama into the series. With that in mind, I can fully understand her decision.

Who would bet their career on hoping the head of the show you're on will die before it gets cancelled? I bet at the time she thought she got lucky getting off the sinking ship so early until she found out he kicked it and suddenly the show picked up and became what everyone hoped it would become.

On top of that, IIRC she was the only one really do anything beyond Star Trek at the time being in movies here and there (She was in Pet Cemetery 2 I think) while the rest of the cast save Stewart were pretty much tied to the show.

I assume you know the technical reason to Saruman being cut like that, the length of the film, having to cut out stuff that doesn't directly affect the story, blah blah blah, but anyway. I'm gonna go and put this in a spoiler, in case someone hasn't read the books yet, and wants to do so without having their shit ruined.

Except it did directly affect the story, only it wasn't the story Jackson wanted to tell.

The Hobbits and their experiences were at the heart of LOTR and their coming home as war veterans to see the Shire had been touched by evil and that they could never truly go home again because home had changed as well was key to the themes of the story Tolkien laid out (it echoed his return to England after WWI and was a criticism of Merry Old England which sadly people still think to their day is something he praises and idealized in his books), but Jackson just wanted the shows packed with sword and sorcery because those were the parts of the book he loved the most.

On the one hand, it meant he developed a personality other than "French guy with British accent and unexplained nationalism," but on the other hand, it wasn't a really good personality.

Picard's odd national nature could have been a good moment in Star Trek for them to lamp shade how much culture and nationality had changed since our times instead of people being stuck 10 minutes into the future loving everything about history we know about and nothing that took place between them and us.

On top of that it could have been a good moment to show how much technology had messed up culture, where universal translators have become so endemic to life that humanity still speaks different languages, but it's rendered moot because the UTs made everyone understand everyone else.

Have it where Jean luc grew up around English people (which instilled in him the love of English culture he has on display during the series) and so his mind filters everything around him via the UT as being English sounding English in the same way we all read second languages through our first and "speak" in that primary language in our mind's eye.

 

[Eddie the head]

Honestly I've been unemployed for the last few weeks so I've been watching a lot of Star Trek. And man dose space travel suck. I think a lot of people got a shit run in Star Trek. But man T'Pol was one unlucky Vulcan. First she gets mind raped in season 1. In season 2 she gets forced out of the "High command." In season 3 she gets poisoned and neurologically compromised. Then in season 4 she gets emotionally manipulated by a xenophobic a hole. And then there was the last episode.

Look I didn't like Enterprise that much, but that last episode was the definition of deserved better.

 

[Twinrehz]

Except it did directly affect the story, only it wasn't the story Jackson wanted to tell.

The Hobbits and their experiences were at the heart of LOTR and their coming home as war veterans to see the Shire had been touched by evil and that they could never truly go home again because home had changed as well was key to the themes of the story Tolkien laid out (it echoed his return to England after WWI and was a criticism of Merry Old England which sadly people still think to their day is something he praises and idealized in his books), but Jackson just wanted the shows packed with sword and sorcery because those were the parts of the book he loved the most.

Don't get me wrong, I really think they should have made those scenes as well, and Jackson's vision fails to capture the overall grimness of the world of Tolkien, reading the books you'll see that there's not an ounce of happiness anywhere, everyone gets their shit ruined one way or another, which could be why Tolkien created the hobbits as a very reclusive people, not wanting anything to do with the rest of the world.

That being said, the sheer scale of these three movies is MASSIVE. As an example, the Golden Hall of Rohan took 8 months to build, they spent 8 days shooting on set, and then it was all torn down again. It's very much the same story with many of the great sets throughout the movie, they're being used so little, yet require a whole lot of effort to go through. It's not Jackson's vision being wrong, it's about overall production costs, running length of the movies, and how narrow you can make the story before it starts to alienating the general public. For my part, they could've made an entire mini-series of it, much like they've done with Game of Thrones. The magnitude of it could have been much larger, but there are physical limitations to making anything, be it the patience of the production company, the budget, stretching of the budget, or the working ability of the crew. I don't know if you've seen the behind the scenes documentary by Costa Botes, that comes with the Extended blu-ray Edition of the movies, they show a very interesting side of the creation of the movies, that might make fans more approving.

So instead of bashing the movies for all the stuff cut out, why not bash it for what they actually put on screen? For example, my comment about Elijah Wood not fitting the part, stuff like that. We've been moaning over the omission of Tom Bombadil and Saruman's ravaging of the shire for over a decade now, give it a rest! I suspect if they'd wanted Saruman's doings at the end of the book, they would have had to add another movie, which would have confused those not familiar with the books, since the war against Sauron is at this point over. At least Saruman got closure, although not in the cinema version of the movie.