cheap VS Efficient

[octafish]

Sportsmanship is a stupid concept, at least in the concept of actually playing the game. I'm not saying to act like a dick and spam chat, but don't ignore tactics that work just because they're "unfair" because, given the chance, people will use those same tactics on you.

They won't if they are decent human beings, Bill Woodford didn't and I won't either. "There are two teams out there, one is playing cricket Day of Defeat. The other is making no attempt to do so." Anyway, that is why I'll only play on small LANs with people I know.

 

[milskidasith]

Sportsmanship is a stupid concept, at least in the concept of actually playing the game. I'm not saying to act like a dick and spam chat, but don't ignore tactics that work just because they're "unfair" because, given the chance, people will use those same tactics on you.

They won't if they are decent human beings, Bill Woodford didn't and I won't either. "There are two teams out there, one is playing cricket Day of Defeat. The other is making no attempt to do so." Anyway, that is why I'll only play on small LANs with people I know.

Of course, yet more judgments. Fair enough; you can avoid anybody who plays to win, and when you meet them, you can yell at them in allchat about how they're all bad sports. If the game is degenerate, that's the game's fault, not the players.

snip

Let me put it like this, if somebody knowingly builds and subsequently uses a class that has an unfair advantage then it's cheap, he is knowingly exploiting an imbalance.

It is cheap and low brow but it isn't illegal or cheating, it just makes you that guy that nobody likes or wants to play with.

Yeah, it's not even cheap.

It can't be "unfair" when everybody has access to it. OK, not everybody, because of the perk system, but that is a design flaw.

Seriously, stop calling things cheap. The only "cheap" things are if they give an advantage that the other player cannot get (for instance, an exploit that only works if you are on the Red team in TF2), or if they involve doing things outside the bounds of the game (hitting your opponent in real life, hacking yourself to infinite HP, etc). If it's in the game, it is fair game.*

*Yes, that includes glitches. Even if a glitch is degenerate, it's still not a cheap tactic.

I think you don't understand cheap, it's easy and too effective, the only sound way to combat it is to just do the same.

You can argue all you like but people who knowingly exploit imbalances are cheap players, it's a fact of a gamers life.

If you apply the same argument to chess, which is a balanced game, it works. Applying this argument to imbalanced games, it doesn't work.

I don't think *you* understand the concept of cheap. It is nothing like that. There is no such thing as a cheap tactic. It's a term scrubs make up to justify why they get killed by certain tactics.

If a tactic can truly only be beaten by using the same tactics (which isn't the case in the example given; grenade spam on CoD can be beaten by just being a good shot, and, in fact, in CoD it's mostly about who sees who first, not what weapon you have, assuming you are both in range), the game is degenerate. It's not the players fault for attempting to accomplish the objectives the best way possible.

As for being a fact of a gamers life: No, it isn't. I'm not cheap. I use grenade launchers. I use knifing classes if I get a good connection. I snipe with the sniper rifle that is more like an assault rifle. I use stealth classes. I use the FAMAS, I used the M16 in Call of Duty, I use killstreaks liberally, I shoot down enemy killstreaks even if they're just UAVs, etc.

I am not cheap. No matter what you say, I'm not cheap. Your opinion is *meaningless* to me if you are the guy dying to my tactics, because you know what is a fact of a gamer's life? People ***** at you. If you are dying, then figure out why, don't complain that grenade spam is cheap or people should only snipe with the intervention or that Painkiller is broken or whatever the complaint is nowadays.

Basically, you're getting "A bad, degenerate game" mixed up with the word "cheap."

 

[Bouncing Ferret FIlm]

FYI, mastering a character and all of their strengths and weaknesses so you can use the character to their fullest extent is NOT cheap.

I have been banded from characters in fighting games because I mastered them a few could beat me... And i didn't go for the same quick "tap tap tap" moves over and over and over.

Setting up a good sniper position on the "flag" and picking fools off as they come to grab it, is good tactics.

 

[Ickorus]

Anything that gives one side a huge advantage with little to no disadvantage is being cheap.

 

[omega 616]

I don't think *you* understand the concept of cheap. It is nothing like that. There is no such thing as a cheap tactic. It's a term scrubs make up to justify why they get killed by certain tactics.

If a tactic can truly only be beaten by using the same tactics (which isn't the case in the example given; grenade spam on CoD can be beaten by just being a good shot, and, in fact, in CoD it's mostly about who sees who first, not what weapon you have, assuming you are both in range), the game is degenerate. It's not the players fault for attempting to accomplish the objectives the best way possible.

As for being a fact of a gamers life: No, it isn't. I'm not cheap. I use grenade launchers. I use knifing classes if I get a good connection. I snipe with the sniper rifle that is more like an assault rifle. I use stealth classes. I use the FAMAS, I used the M16 in Call of Duty, I use killstreaks liberally, I shoot down enemy killstreaks even if they're just UAVs, etc.

I am not cheap. No matter what you say, I'm not cheap. Your opinion is *meaningless* to me if you are the guy dying to my tactics, because you know what is a fact of a gamer's life? People ***** at you. If you are dying, then figure out why, don't complain that grenade spam is cheap or people should only snipe with the intervention or that Painkiller is broken or whatever the complaint is nowadays.

Basically, you're getting "A bad, degenerate game" mixed up with the word "cheap."

If you take the space out of [ b ] [ / b ] you can make things bold instead of putting *this*. Just thought you would like to know.

I will try to explain it a different way, if your having a fist fight and you fall to the floor, grab a hand full of dirt and throw it in your opponents eyes or just straight kick him in the nuts, it's a cheap trick, nobody ever said doing it is against the law but it is a cheap way to win.

We obviously both have our opinions, I see using overpowered features of a game as cheap, you don't.

We will have to agree to disagree or be locked in this debate for hours, neither of us going anywhere.

I have to ask, how do you beat a guy using danger close, noob tube, scavenger and commando? medium to long range one shot kills, close up tele knifed. (yes, noob tube is very effective at long range, I have a talent for long shotting windows)

 

[milskidasith]

I don't think *you* understand the concept of cheap. It is nothing like that. There is no such thing as a cheap tactic. It's a term scrubs make up to justify why they get killed by certain tactics.

If a tactic can truly only be beaten by using the same tactics (which isn't the case in the example given; grenade spam on CoD can be beaten by just being a good shot, and, in fact, in CoD it's mostly about who sees who first, not what weapon you have, assuming you are both in range), the game is degenerate. It's not the players fault for attempting to accomplish the objectives the best way possible.

As for being a fact of a gamers life: No, it isn't. I'm not cheap. I use grenade launchers. I use knifing classes if I get a good connection. I snipe with the sniper rifle that is more like an assault rifle. I use stealth classes. I use the FAMAS, I used the M16 in Call of Duty, I use killstreaks liberally, I shoot down enemy killstreaks even if they're just UAVs, etc.

I am not cheap. No matter what you say, I'm not cheap. Your opinion is *meaningless* to me if you are the guy dying to my tactics, because you know what is a fact of a gamer's life? People ***** at you. If you are dying, then figure out why, don't complain that grenade spam is cheap or people should only snipe with the intervention or that Painkiller is broken or whatever the complaint is nowadays.

Basically, you're getting "A bad, degenerate game" mixed up with the word "cheap."

If you take the space out of [ b ] [ / b ] you can make things bold instead of putting *this*. Just thought you would like to know.

I will try to explain it a different way, if your having a fist fight and you fall to the floor, grab a hand full of dirt and throw it in your opponents eyes or just straight kick him in the nuts, it's a cheap trick, nobody ever said doing it is against the law but it is a cheap way to win.

We obviously both have our opinions, I see using overpowered features of a game as cheap, you don't.

We will have to agree to disagree or be locked in this debate for hours, neither of us going anywhere.

I have to ask, how do you beat a guy using danger close, noob tube, scavenger and commando? medium to long range one shot kills, close up tele knifed. (yes, noob tube is very effective at long range, I have a talent for long shotting windows)

Your analogies are still wrong... you are going outside of the parameters of the game again, which is akin to hacking. Saying "It's like putting dirt in somebodies eyes in a fistfight" is saying that the tactics you claim are cheap are against the rules of the game. They aren't. The game lets you use them, so use them. The only rules in a video game are what the game itself does and doesn't let you do. If nobody put any rules into the fight, (especially if it is real fight and not one for fun) then yes, kicking somebody in the nuts then stomping on their head while they are on the ground is a fair tactic.

If a game truly has overpowered features, the problem is with the game, not the players who use them. There are only *very* rare instances where a game can have an overpowered feature that needs banning and still be good for the rest of the game; the obvious example is SF2 with Akuma. CoD isn't an example of this.

As for that class: You shoot the guy using it. Do you want an in depth strategy? I mean, for fucks sake, I could create the same exact "Good at short, long, and medium range class" with any weapon selection.

The last sniper rifle (whatever it's called, the one that shoots semi auto with a ten round clip).

Akimbo Desert Eagles.

C4

Scavenger

Cold Blooded

Steady Aim.

Look! He's immune to most all killstreaks, he can blow up windows, he doesn't have an ammo problem, he can shoot long range (sniper) he can kill medium range (Akimbo Desert Eagles are very accurate with steady aim), he can kill short range (either weapon will hit with steady aim on), and he two hit kills you with either weapon (I think it may be a three hit kill with the desert eagle).

How do you kill it? You shoot him and don't get shot! Just because your class is theoretically good at all ranges (which it's not; knifing for close range is pretty stupid, considering, at knife range, every weapon can kill a person; knifing is only really more useful than shooting if you see somebody while running and can't switch over to your gun fast enough) doesn't mean it is immune to bullets.

 

[omega 616]

Your analogies are still wrong... you are going outside of the parameters of the game again, which is akin to hacking. Saying "It's like putting dirt in somebodies eyes in a fistfight" is saying that the tactics you claim are cheap are against the rules of the game. They aren't. The game lets you use them, so use them. The only rules in a video game are what the game itself does and doesn't let you do. If nobody put any rules into the fight, (especially if it is real fight and not one for fun) then yes, kicking somebody in the nuts then stomping on their head while they are on the ground is a fair tactic.

If a game truly has overpowered features, the problem is with the game, not the players who use them. There are only *very* rare instances where a game can have an overpowered feature that needs banning and still be good for the rest of the game; the obvious example is SF2 with Akuma. CoD isn't an example of this.

As for that class: You shoot the guy using it. Do you want an in depth strategy? I mean, for fucks sake, I could create the same exact "Good at short, long, and medium range class" with any weapon selection.

The last sniper rifle (whatever it's called, the one that shoots semi auto with a ten round clip).

Akimbo Desert Eagles.

C4

Scavenger

Cold Blooded

Steady Aim.

Look! He's immune to most all killstreaks, he can blow up windows, he doesn't have an ammo problem, he can shoot long range (sniper) he can kill medium range (Akimbo Desert Eagles are very accurate with steady aim), he can kill short range (either weapon will hit with steady aim on), and he two hit kills you with either weapon (I think it may be a three hit kill with the desert eagle).

How do you kill it? You shoot him and don't get shot! Just because your class is theoretically good at all ranges (which it's not; knifing for close range is pretty stupid, considering, at knife range, every weapon can kill a person; knifing is only really more useful than shooting if you see somebody while running and can't switch over to your gun fast enough) doesn't mean it is immune to bullets.

You obviously haven't played MW2 then, knifers can survive shotguns at knifing range, I have had hit markers and still died from them.

Knifing range with commando is about 6ft, Thats without commando which makes it even further. A tactic that has a fair chance against it is dropping a claymore just before you get knifed to atleast get revenge on them.

I have even seen players use commando disappear for a split second and reappear killing the enemy, you may call bullshit 'cos I can't prove it. Needless to say it's cheap.

Unless you have stopping power snipers don't one hit kill, except the 50 cal. Were as noob tube and danger close can kill in one no matter what, you don't even need danger close 99% of the time.

At med range, aim right and you can deep impact them, killing them in one shot.

Your class is still going to get owned by a noob tuber, unless you can head shot, flank or he misses you will get killed.

Nobody ever said "in a fist fight you can never throw dirt in somebodies eyes" so you can do it but you don't 'cos it's cheap. You contradicted yourself in your first paragraph by the way.

 

[Not-here-anymore]

I'd class 'cheap' actions as those that are decidedly un-sportsman-like e.g. Using lag to your advantage, spamming infinite combos/unblockable moves in fighting games, deliberately putting yourself in a position to kill opponents as they spawn...

Camping doesn't fit my definition here, as it tends to simply be stupid, rather than unsportsmanlike. Using the main example of this thread, MW2, you get a kill cam. You can work out where the camper is. And you can grenade launcher/frag grenade the idiot before they see you in future. The best part? 8 times out of 10, your camper will take up the exact same position again later on. (Camping not to be confused with sniping, the act of taking a dedicated marksmanship weapon, and picking a spot with a good line of sight/field of view)

Efficient actions (e.g. using the grenade launcher to clear campers/groups/people with a better position than your own, using in-game radar to ambush someone as they come round a corner) are fine by me, if a little annoying when used repeatedly

 

[milskidasith]

Your analogies are still wrong... you are going outside of the parameters of the game again, which is akin to hacking. Saying "It's like putting dirt in somebodies eyes in a fistfight" is saying that the tactics you claim are cheap are against the rules of the game. They aren't. The game lets you use them, so use them. The only rules in a video game are what the game itself does and doesn't let you do. If nobody put any rules into the fight, (especially if it is real fight and not one for fun) then yes, kicking somebody in the nuts then stomping on their head while they are on the ground is a fair tactic.

If a game truly has overpowered features, the problem is with the game, not the players who use them. There are only *very* rare instances where a game can have an overpowered feature that needs banning and still be good for the rest of the game; the obvious example is SF2 with Akuma. CoD isn't an example of this.

As for that class: You shoot the guy using it. Do you want an in depth strategy? I mean, for fucks sake, I could create the same exact "Good at short, long, and medium range class" with any weapon selection.

The last sniper rifle (whatever it's called, the one that shoots semi auto with a ten round clip).

Akimbo Desert Eagles.

C4

Scavenger

Cold Blooded

Steady Aim.

Look! He's immune to most all killstreaks, he can blow up windows, he doesn't have an ammo problem, he can shoot long range (sniper) he can kill medium range (Akimbo Desert Eagles are very accurate with steady aim), he can kill short range (either weapon will hit with steady aim on), and he two hit kills you with either weapon (I think it may be a three hit kill with the desert eagle).

How do you kill it? You shoot him and don't get shot! Just because your class is theoretically good at all ranges (which it's not; knifing for close range is pretty stupid, considering, at knife range, every weapon can kill a person; knifing is only really more useful than shooting if you see somebody while running and can't switch over to your gun fast enough) doesn't mean it is immune to bullets.

You obviously haven't played MW2 then, knifers can survive shotguns at knifing range, I have had hit markers and still died from them.

Knifing range with commando is about 6ft, Thats without commando which makes it even further. A tactic that has a fair chance against it is dropping a claymore just before you get knifed to atleast get revenge on them.

I have even seen players use commando disappear for a split second and reappear killing the enemy, you may call bullshit 'cos I can't prove it. Needless to say it's cheap.

Unless you have stopping power snipers don't one hit kill, except the 50 cal. Were as noob tube and danger close can kill in one no matter what, you don't even need danger close 99% of the time.

At med range, aim right and you can deep impact them, killing them in one shot.

Your class is still going to get owned by a noob tuber, unless you can head shot, flank or he misses you will get killed.

Nobody ever said "in a fist fight you can never throw dirt in somebodies eyes" so you can do it but you don't 'cos it's cheap. You contradicted yourself in your first paragraph by the way.

It's not cheap. You are a scrub. Just stating that once again.

I've played MW2. The knifer problem is nowhere near as big as you make it out to be. Shotguns do kill them in one hit. If you miss some pellets, sure, it won't, but if you get a direct shot, it does kill them. Hell, you can, without steady aim, kill a knifer with just about any weapon when they are in knife range, except if they have commando, and if they are burning a perk to (situationally) make the Knife into a useful weapon, that's their problem. Even if it were overpowered (and you are free to think it is), it still wouldn't be cheap. It would prove the game is degenerate, but it wouldn't be cheap.

If players are disappearing on you, you have a bad connection. That's unfortunate, but it doesn't make certain tactics cheap.

Actually, both of the more powerful sniper rifles (.50 cal and intervention) kill in one hit without stopping power to the head or upper body, and every sniper rifle besides the last one (which is more like a semi auto rifle, honestly) kill with a headshot, no stopping power. With stopping power, you can either A: Get gutshot kills or B: Silence it and still get kills to the upper body. The rapid fire sniper rifle I use only gets a one hit kill with stopping power and headshots, but it's not that problematic.

My class may get killed by somebody with a grenade launcher, sure... but so what? I haven't found grenade launching to be problematic, and if it was degenerate, that's the game's fault, not the players using it, so it still wouldn't be cheap.

As for the fist fight thing: There was no contradiction. I said if it was against the rules to do something, then doing it would be cheating, not being "cheap;" if the guy called no nutshots, then kicking him would be cheating. If it's just a brawl, then kicking somebody in the nuts isn't cheap, it's smart. How is that a contradiction?

Finally, as for the impact kill: How the fuck can you consider it cheap if a guy manages to kill you by hitting you directly with the only non hitscan weapon in the game (aside from grenades and throwing knives)? Getting a noob tube impact is much harder than shooting somebody in the chest two times.

Anyway, here's my basic position, summarized.

1: You don't know CoD that well, or at least you don't know the sniper rifles.
2: Nothing is cheap. Even if the game is degenerate, it's not cheap to use the degenerate tactics, it just means the game is poorly designed.
3: CoD isn't nearly as bad as people are making it out to be.
4: Even if it is, the problems still are with game design, not with "cheap" players, and everybody abiding by some stupid concept of "fair play" won't change that any game that degenerate (seriously, *everything* in Call of Duty is called cheap) isn't a good game for multiplayer anyway.

EDIT: To be even more brief...

You see overpowered tactics/whatever kills you in a way that annoys you as "cheap" and blame the players.

I see overpowered tactics as signs that the game is degenerate (meaning there are few options besides using them) and blame the game designers for making a shitty game.l

I'd class 'cheap' actions as those that are decidedly un-sportsman-like e.g. Using lag to your advantage, spamming infinite combos/unblockable moves in fighting games, deliberately putting yourself in a position to kill opponents as they spawn...

Camping doesn't fit my definition here, as it tends to simply be stupid, rather than unsportsmanlike. Using the main example of this thread, MW2, you get a kill cam. You can work out where the camper is. And you can grenade launcher/frag grenade the idiot before they see you in future. The best part? 8 times out of 10, your camper will take up the exact same position again later on. (Camping not to be confused with sniping, the act of taking a dedicated marksmanship weapon, and picking a spot with a good line of sight/field of view)

Efficient actions (e.g. using the grenade launcher to clear campers/groups/people with a better position than your own, using in-game radar to ambush someone as they come round a corner) are fine by me, if a little annoying when used repeatedly

This brings up one of the few actions that can be banned easily (unlike, say, spawn camping, camping in general, "spamming" nades, or other fuzzy rules): Infinite combos. It's pretty easy to tell when somebody is doing an infinite, so it's a fairly discrete ban, and in many fighting games, removing the infinites does make it better (again, SF2, removing Akuma entirely, and for SSBB, removing DeDeDe's infinite makes him less of a hard counter against a few people). Situations like those are still prone to people crying cheap to early, especially when the infinite requires the opponent to be an idiot to let it get set up.

Of course, there are games such as Guilty Gear where, by design, infinites won't work even if the infinite combo itself existed (less damage as the combo goes up, ways to instantly break out of a combo, etc.)

 

[omega 616]

It's not cheap. You are a scrub. Just stating that once again.

I've played MW2. The knifer problem is nowhere near as big as you make it out to be. Shotguns do kill them in one hit. If you miss some pellets, sure, it won't, but if you get a direct shot, it does kill them. Hell, you can, without steady aim, kill a knifer with just about any weapon when they are in knife range, except if they have commando, and if they are burning a perk to (situationally) make the Knife into a useful weapon, that's their problem. Even if it were overpowered (and you are free to think it is), it still wouldn't be cheap. It would prove the game is degenerate, but it wouldn't be cheap.

If players are disappearing on you, you have a bad connection. That's unfortunate, but it doesn't make certain tactics cheap.

Actually, both of the more powerful sniper rifles (.50 cal and intervention) kill in one hit without stopping power to the head or upper body, and every sniper rifle besides the last one (which is more like a semi auto rifle, honestly) kill with a headshot, no stopping power. With stopping power, you can either A: Get gutshot kills or B: Silence it and still get kills to the upper body. The rapid fire sniper rifle I use only gets a one hit kill with stopping power and headshots, but it's not that problematic.

My class may get killed by somebody with a grenade launcher, sure... but so what? I haven't found grenade launching to be problematic, and if it was degenerate, that's the game's fault, not the players using it, so it still wouldn't be cheap.

As for the fist fight thing: There was no contradiction. I said if it was against the rules to do something, then doing it would be cheating, not being "cheap;" if the guy called no nutshots, then kicking him would be cheating. If it's just a brawl, then kicking somebody in the nuts isn't cheap, it's smart. How is that a contradiction?

Finally, as for the impact kill: How the fuck can you consider it cheap if a guy manages to kill you by hitting you directly with the only non hitscan weapon in the game (aside from grenades and throwing knives)? Getting a noob tube impact is much harder than shooting somebody in the chest two times.

Anyway, here's my basic position, summarized.

1: You don't know CoD that well, or at least you don't know the sniper rifles.
2: Nothing is cheap. Even if the game is degenerate, it's not cheap to use the degenerate tactics, it just means the game is poorly designed.
3: CoD isn't nearly as bad as people are making it out to be.
4: Even if it is, the problems still are with game design, not with "cheap" players, and everybody abiding by some stupid concept of "fair play" won't change that any game that degenerate (seriously, *everything* in Call of Duty is called cheap) isn't a good game for multiplayer anyway.

EDIT: To be even more brief...

You see overpowered tactics/whatever kills you in a way that annoys you as "cheap" and blame the players.

I see overpowered tactics as signs that the game is degenerate (meaning there are few options besides using them) and blame the game designers for making a shitty game.l

I am not a scrub, your just using somebody else's argument to cover your cheapness.

It applies to so many things, some people have natural skill, some people gain skills and some people are lazy so use cheap methods to get the kills (in this case).

The game devs are at fault for not balancing it but it's the cheap players who decide to abuse the imbalance.

I don't use snipers, aiming is a ***** and I lack the will to learn to quick scope, so I only recited what I have heard.

The range I got killed by the knifer who I got the hit marker on, all the pellets hit him, plus I was using steady aim. Again you will probably call bullshit.

You know your like the only person to call a game a degenerate. To be honest, I think your just making you your own meanings to words.

My connection is reliable, 98% of the time it's great, the game was running smooth, I was moving normal everything was fine, I just turned and saw the enemy disappear and reappear knifing my ally then turned and run at me, the rest of the game ran fine aswell. It might have been a fluke.

I am fine getting shot up by the ump, sniper rifles yadda yadda but when you hear DUM my face turns into 0.< then when I going flying it turns into -.- only to spawn and hear DUM again.

I'm sorry, I thought you said throwing dirt wasn't cheap then it was. You actually said throwing dirt wasn't cheap but kicking in the nuts was cheap unless otherwise stated. This is getting off topic anyway.

I am not saying it's cheap to kill with deep impact, it's like getting a kill with a sniper one hit kill with no splash damage.

It is cheap to use "degenerate" tactics, thats my point. It seems being called cheap is like being labeled worse than Hitler, to you. Yeah, it's not a great thing to be called but it's up to the person if he wants to use things that alot of people consider cheap.

I am not saying cod is so broken I am surprised it works, I am saying a few things are overpowered and using them makes you cheap.

 

[milskidasith]

It's not cheap. You are a scrub. Just stating that once again.

I've played MW2. The knifer problem is nowhere near as big as you make it out to be. Shotguns do kill them in one hit. If you miss some pellets, sure, it won't, but if you get a direct shot, it does kill them. Hell, you can, without steady aim, kill a knifer with just about any weapon when they are in knife range, except if they have commando, and if they are burning a perk to (situationally) make the Knife into a useful weapon, that's their problem. Even if it were overpowered (and you are free to think it is), it still wouldn't be cheap. It would prove the game is degenerate, but it wouldn't be cheap.

If players are disappearing on you, you have a bad connection. That's unfortunate, but it doesn't make certain tactics cheap.

Actually, both of the more powerful sniper rifles (.50 cal and intervention) kill in one hit without stopping power to the head or upper body, and every sniper rifle besides the last one (which is more like a semi auto rifle, honestly) kill with a headshot, no stopping power. With stopping power, you can either A: Get gutshot kills or B: Silence it and still get kills to the upper body. The rapid fire sniper rifle I use only gets a one hit kill with stopping power and headshots, but it's not that problematic.

My class may get killed by somebody with a grenade launcher, sure... but so what? I haven't found grenade launching to be problematic, and if it was degenerate, that's the game's fault, not the players using it, so it still wouldn't be cheap.

As for the fist fight thing: There was no contradiction. I said if it was against the rules to do something, then doing it would be cheating, not being "cheap;" if the guy called no nutshots, then kicking him would be cheating. If it's just a brawl, then kicking somebody in the nuts isn't cheap, it's smart. How is that a contradiction?

Finally, as for the impact kill: How the fuck can you consider it cheap if a guy manages to kill you by hitting you directly with the only non hitscan weapon in the game (aside from grenades and throwing knives)? Getting a noob tube impact is much harder than shooting somebody in the chest two times.

Anyway, here's my basic position, summarized.

1: You don't know CoD that well, or at least you don't know the sniper rifles.
2: Nothing is cheap. Even if the game is degenerate, it's not cheap to use the degenerate tactics, it just means the game is poorly designed.
3: CoD isn't nearly as bad as people are making it out to be.
4: Even if it is, the problems still are with game design, not with "cheap" players, and everybody abiding by some stupid concept of "fair play" won't change that any game that degenerate (seriously, *everything* in Call of Duty is called cheap) isn't a good game for multiplayer anyway.

EDIT: To be even more brief...

You see overpowered tactics/whatever kills you in a way that annoys you as "cheap" and blame the players.

I see overpowered tactics as signs that the game is degenerate (meaning there are few options besides using them) and blame the game designers for making a shitty game.l

I am not a scrub, your just using somebody else's argument to cover your cheapness.

It applies to so many things, some people have natural skill, some people gain skills and some people are lazy so use cheap methods to get the kills (in this case).

The game devs are at fault for not balancing it but it's the cheap players who decide to abuse the imbalance.

I don't use snipers, aiming is a ***** and I lack the will to learn to quick scope, so I only recited what I have heard.

The range I got killed by the knifer who I got the hit marker on, all the pellets hit him, plus I was using steady aim. Again you will probably call bullshit.

You know your like the only person to call a game a degenerate. To be honest, I think your just making you your own meanings to words.

My connection is reliable, 98% of the time it's great, the game was running smooth, I was moving normal everything was fine, I just turned and saw the enemy disappear and reappear knifing my ally then turned and run at me, the rest of the game ran fine aswell. It might have been a fluke.

I am fine getting shot up by the ump, sniper rifles yadda yadda but when you hear DUM my face turns into 0.< then when I going flying it turns into -.- only to spawn and hear DUM again.

I'm sorry, I thought you said throwing dirt wasn't cheap then it was. You actually said throwing dirt wasn't cheap but kicking in the nuts was cheap unless otherwise stated. This is getting off topic anyway.

I am not saying it's cheap to kill with deep impact, it's like getting a kill with a sniper one hit kill with no splash damage.

It is cheap to use "degenerate" tactics, thats my point. It seems being called cheap is like being labeled worse than Hitler, to you. Yeah, it's not a great thing to be called but it's up to the person if he wants to use things that alot of people consider cheap.

I am not saying cod is so broken I am surprised it works, I am saying a few things are overpowered and using them makes you cheap.

No, it's not cheap at all. Blaming people in *any way* for using tactics that are in the game is being whiny and bitchy. There's no way I can emphasize this enough. No matter how much you call something cheap, it will not affect that it is in the game and will be used. If they have the higher score, they are better than you, whether they are doing it by noob tubing or pistol headshotting from across the map or anything in between.

If CoD has as many problems as you say, it *is* broken and degenerate. If there are overpowered tactics that are better than everything else 100% of the time (not saying there are, but that's your argument), that is a sign the game is, in fact, degenerate and broken.

Anyway, Godwin's law, so the arguments pretty much over, anyway; no sense arguing with you when you're going to bring up Hitler just to make me sound like I'm the bitchy one when you're the guy who's blaming everybody who is doing things he doesn't like.

 

[omega 616]

No, it's not cheap at all. Blaming people in *any way* for using tactics that are in the game is being whiny and bitchy. There's no way I can emphasize this enough. No matter how much you call something cheap, it will not affect that it is in the game and will be used. If they have the higher score, they are better than you, whether they are doing it by noob tubing or pistol headshotting from across the map or anything in between.

If CoD has as many problems as you say, it *is* broken and degenerate. If there are overpowered tactics that are better than everything else 100% of the time (not saying there are, but that's your argument), that is a sign the game is, in fact, degenerate and broken.

Anyway, Godwin's law, so the arguments pretty much over, anyway; no sense arguing with you when you're going to bring up Hitler just to make me sound like I'm the bitchy one when you're the guy who's blaming everybody who is doing things he doesn't like.

I said we might aswell give up awhile ago but you carried on, so I am being a little petty.

You make sound like , I don't get wound up, I just sigh, maybe grunt groan.

Who made you god of the gamer dictionary? You sound like your stating pure fact, while some may agree with you an equal number will disagree, so who is right?

That isn't my argument, my argument is "there are cheap tactics", your argument is "everything is fair" and we will have to live with that fact, you can carry on saying how wrong I am but to me, your equally as wrong.

 

[Malf]

Say in MW4,

Am i the only one that spotted that?

no

 

[Bouncing Ferret FIlm]

Say in MW4,

Am i the only one that spotted that?

no

Oh good lord people it was a typo. You all know what i meant COD4, MW... "I have just been informed that Zulu fires the phasers on the starship enterprise. If this made the problem IMPOSSIBLE TO SOLVE, i will change the name of the crew member. Please hand your blue books to my TA..." Patton Oswalt Werewolves and Lollipops

 

[milskidasith]

Say in MW4,

Am i the only one that spotted that?

no

Oh good lord people it was a typo. You all know what i meant COD4, MW... "I have just been informed that Zulu fires the phasers on the starship enterprise. If this made the problem IMPOSSIBLE TO SOLVE, i will change the name of the crew member. Please hand your blue books to my TA..." Patton Oswalt Werewolves and Lollipops

Yes, we all know it's a typo, that's why we pointed it out. You're acting like we insulted your intelligence because of it.

I might point out you're over sensitive based on this response, though.

 

[shaboinkin]

I remember when TF2 first came out and on the last stage of dustbowl, you could shoot pipes over the walls. It was a pretty damn cheap tactic because they were never seen. Blue would try and hide behind that wall infront of the first CP, but the demos could just lob their pipes over that wall and kill people without anyone ever seeing them. It was pretty impossible to shoot pipes back at them because you have the meds+HWs breathing down your neck as well.

Shit pissed me off

 

[psivamp]

I've done some really cheap crap, so I've pretty much kicked aside my soap box.

Planting C4 on your enemies vehicles AT THE SPAWN and hiding nearby in BF:BC2, waiting for all the vehicles to disappear on your radar (meaning they're occupied), and blowing them all to kingdom come. Cheap, and fairly awesome. A group of guys in a helicopter and a guy in a tank all instantly bite it halfway to where the action is - amazing and shameful.

 

[Katana314]

I don't really draw any lines. If they're engineers building in the sky, I say congratulations on discovering it, tell Valve they need to patch it when they can, and leave the server.

 

[Bouncing Ferret FIlm]

I don't really draw any lines. If they're engineers building in the sky, I say congratulations on discovering it, tell Valve they need to patch it when they can, and leave the server.

No idea how to do that on the PS3

 

[TerranReaper]

In my opinion, "efficient" is something you can technically counter without completely going out of your way of doing so, such as 4-pool/zerg rush in Starcraft or an annoying spy in Team Fortress 2. "Cheap" is when there is little to no counter to it, or the counter is highly inefficient in comparison to the ease of the "cheap" strategy/whatever-the-hell-it-is.