Children not learning the lessons of failure

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Abedeus

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rokudan said:
Beefcakes said:
Yeah, people as high as year 9 no longer fail, or get an F, their work is 'unacceptable', just so they don't feel bad about their failure
Bunch on bullock if you ask me
...and thus began the pussification of the world.
Tell me about it. My "friend" in Middle School barely did anything, D in almost every subject, two F and he still got a chance to fix his grades. I mean, I have nothing against it, but he had the same grades in the first class. Hell, he would fail P.E. just because he had forgotten his stuff 6 times... If not for the fact he got an A for his high jump.
 

willard3

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Scarecrow38 said:
The bigges warning sign of protection going WAY too far is this absolute crap ('scuse the French) about using different coloured inks! If a kid is going to be hurt by red instead of green writing then what the hell is the gene pool coming to? Children aren't bulls.... what on earth are people seriously thinking?
Hehe yeah. My middle school teachers always did that, and a couple high school teachers too.

Then you get to college and have professors bluntly tell you as they assign a research paper: "I will probably see very few A's on this paper. An A is given for an exceptionally well thought-out, original, and communicated argument. Most of you will probably get low B's or C's. It will look like I hemorrhaged on your paper when you get it back." (my Modern Civilization professor quite literally said this in a deadpan voice with absolutely no humor...I might have missed a couple words here or there.)

I really really want to see some of those coddled kids survive college.
 

chumpzilla_69

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scumofsociety said:
Perhaps if the kid who fails with the lowest mark is thrown to the crocodiles? Nothing like a bit of fear to motivate people.
I'd have been eaten by Le French Crocodile by now. But that being said, My current French teacher is a bit of a condescending ass-hat at times, but now my predicted GCSE grades have risen from a low C to a predicted A.

Our teachers moderate "OMFG YOU ARE TEH CHOZEN ONE!!1!! HAV MI BAYBEEZ"
with the " Go and fucking die..... please.... NOW!"
So everyone's confused, but doing well
 

chumpzilla_69

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shadow_pirate22 said:
I had teachers who told it like it was for pretty much my whole life. My favorite teacher was my 8th greade science teacher. If he thought your writing was sloppy or you got some answers wrong, he would say, "That's ugly. Do it again". He was one of the best loved teachers in my middle school. Kids should be told they're wrong when they're wrong. Not getting into a good college these days is a lot worse on a kid's self esteem than getting an answer wrong in front of the class.


By the way, yes. I did get into a good college.
My German Teacher does that, Although we all presume he's Garry Glitter's mentor
 

willard3

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Tenmar said:
George Carlin was right that we are burying ourselves in euphamistic language. We don't call people failures anymore, we call them minimally exceptional. How'd you like to tell that to the parents of a child. "He's minimally exceptional"
More like "he's exceptional in how badly he sucks." :)
 

Clemenstation

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Baby Tea said:
My wife is in her placement now before being certified as a teacher, and she's disgusted by the fact that you don't 'fail' students any more. Shes in a 7th and 8th grade class right now, and they can't spell properly (Even simple words), they don't know who to write properly (With proper grammar and punctuation), they don't understand simple math, and this isn't abnormal. And if they get out of school and head into 9th grade with what amounts to a 5th grade education, they'll fall even further behind and get no-where.
See, I have mixed feelings about this. In positive news, I am a writer and if the next generation will be busting out into the working world still possessing atrocious grammar and livejournal-esque writing habits, I will ALWAYS have a job.

In negative news, if these half baked clam chowders become the majority standard, will English even stay the same? I shudder to think what might happen to literature if the next generation of novelists think LOLOL sounds like a pretty good way to end every other sentence.
 

nova18

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Graustein said:
On the one hand, treating them with almost infinite respect and giving them compliments on their answers, no matter how stupid, is a great boost to their self esteem
No, it's a big boost to their ego. If they are wrong, you should bloody well tell them.

The "possible cost" to the kid's motivation is nothing compared to the fact that if they are treated with infinite respect, they will start to think of themselves as infallible. It will raise a generation of assholes who don't know what "no" means.

It would create a huge rise in 4chan members though.
Seriously though, kids dont need coddling, just tell them sorry but its wrong. Dont lie to their face and tell them they could be the next Einstein because they told you that a half of 10 is Africa.
 

Zykon TheLich

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chumpzilla_69 said:
scumofsociety said:
Perhaps if the kid who fails with the lowest mark is thrown to the crocodiles? Nothing like a bit of fear to motivate people.
I'd have been eaten by Le French Crocodile by now. But that being said, My current French teacher is a bit of a condescending ass-hat at times, but now my predicted GCSE grades have risen from a low C to a predicted A.
Funnily enough I was thinking of one of my old French teachers when I thought of that.

Fearing the consequences of failure really gets you learning...and in his case 'failure' was getting anything less than 8/10.
 

Eclectic Dreck

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I think you NEED to fail in order to learn. If I am successful in an endeavor, I am given no motivation to change my actions or grow as a person, and if I'm always considered a success why should I change when I'm clearly perfect?
 

GothmogII

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Baby Tea said:
GothmogII said:
I hardly see that it matters...considering the children we're talking about are in primary school. What's the harm in a little false pride? Going to lose every last shred of it anyway once they get into secondary school. :p
No, bad idea.

My wife is in her placement now before being certified as a teacher, and she's disgusted by the fact that you don't 'fail' students any more. Shes in a 7th and 8th grade class right now, and they can't spell properly (Even simple words), they don't know who to write properly (With proper grammar and punctuation), they don't understand simple math, and this isn't abnormal. And if they get out of school and head into 9th grade with what amounts to a 5th grade education, they'll fall even further behind and get no-where.

Teaching isn't teaching if the kids never fail. Then you're just spouting at the front of a group of kids, most of whom will forget it in an hour.
I didn't say that it was a good idea. Just that I hardly think it matters since this attitude more than likely won't be upheld by their teachers past primary level.
 

theSovietConnection

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This must all be relatively recent as well. I remember in kindergarten (only about 12-13 years ago) I got yelled at by my teacher because she didn't like the way I wrote the number two (for all its worth, I made the 2 look much like that one, as opposed to the cursive looking one she wanted)
 

joeychuckles

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Machines Are Us said:
It's possible to criticise a child mistake without "humiliating" them as the writer of the article points out. If they make a mistake, correct them but do so with decency as you quoted: "Nice try Ned, thanks for answering, but the correct answer is..." is neither humiliating or condescending if said politely.

There has also been a reduced amount of competition in sporting events at schools. I am aware of some schools that give rewards to all who compete; no matter where they place so they do not feel left out or humiliated for being beaten. People should not feel bad because they lost, they should feel motivated to try harder next time, if they are rewarded for failure they will not learn this lesson. However, if they are humiliated for losing, by way of nasty comments etc. then they will also give up.

Although as mentioned before, it is possible to correct someone without it being the end of the world.
well said
 

willard3

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theSovietConnection said:
This must all be relatively recent as well. I remember in kindergarten (only about 12-13 years ago) I got yelled at by my teacher because she didn't like the way I wrote the number two (for all its worth, I made the 2 look much like that one, as opposed to the cursive looking one she wanted)
I used to ALWAYS write the number 2 like that, without any thought to the many times I screwed it up. Then comes sixth grade, when everyone and their mom did the cursive one. So that's what I do now. :)

Yay peer pressure!
 

GothmogII

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Long ago...I got chewed out early on in primary school when we were coloring in pictures of Santa for Christmas. The offence? I coloured his jacket and pants purple...yeah. Because you know, Santa can only wear read or white. *rolls eyes*
 

Baby Tea

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GothmogII said:
I didn't say that it was a good idea. Just that I hardly think it matters since this attitude more than likely won't be upheld by their teachers past primary level.
I wish that were the case, but many highschools do it too.

But even if they didn't, it certainly matters since they won't have the skills to survive a highschool education! If they never get corrected or get a 'fail', and head into an environment where everything will be corrected and you can 'fail', then they are totally crippled in that they aren't at the correct level of education needed to pass.

And continue that with university and you're looking at a virtual (if not literal) generation of undereducated students who don't even know if they are wrong or right, and are therefore wasting thousands and thousands of dollars at universities and wondering why they are failing courses, wondering why they can't get that job they really want, or wonder why they aren't getting that promotion. Success and failure are crucial parts of life that every person, child or adult, must be able to understand and deal with. If they aren't taught young, they'll have a much harder time learning it when they are older and think they know everything because they haven't been taught otherwise.
 

FallenRainbows

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Hmm...

If it?s an opinion that?s "wrong" its opinion end of.

But if its undisputable FACT like Math?s it is or it aint if it?s wrong tell um, I have had an experiences like this where someone blatantly doesn?t understand and the teacher just goes well done and I?m sat there staring at her ineptitude and laughing at the person who doesn?t grasp that the line perpendicular to: Y=2x-4 is: Y=-1/2x-n

Ok, maybe he would have an excuse if we hadn't been doing it for the last week or two...But we had...
 

keyton777

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makes you wonder how fast we will nose dive in the future

if i make it to 70 without going thru nuclear war or the apocalaypse im going to sit on a skyscraper on a lawn chair and drink whiskey, and watch the world burn, and not care
 

Baby Tea

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Khell_Sennet said:
Here's the thing...

It began with the idea you couldn't spank your children. When a kid did something wrong, they would get a nice painful swat across their ass to let them KNOW they did wrong, and that when they do such, there is punishment. Pussified liberal douchebags took this away.

Then they put an end to the practice of "Failing" students. Someone who didn't meet the requirements for advancement used to be held back until they finally could meet said requirements. Thus, all high-school graduates would be comparable in skills and knowledge, and we had an educational standard we could bank on. Mentally deficient psychologists robbed us of this with the bullshit notion that holding a child back is worse for their development than pushing them forward into higher education well beyond their retarded little brains. Now, a high school diploma is worth nothing save proof that you sat in a crowded room five days a week for twelve/thirteen years.

Along comes the "Can't Say No" crowd, who whole-heartedly believe it's bad for a child to tell them no. Before this, you had two options for every query, Yes and No. This more than anything, robbed parents of their authority over their children. As a parent, your word is to be law, not a request. "Honey, please don't touch that" is NOT how to speak to a child. "No! Don't touch that Casey!" is the appropriate response. No, Don't, Stop, Forbid... An entire generation of children being raised with no concept of these words, it can't be good. New Age fuckwits with faith in tabloid psychology caused this one, may they rot in the nine layers of Baator for it.

Moving forward (in time, not progress), we hit the more recent trend of "Participation Trophies". The hard truth of the world is that Second Place is the First Looser. Life is not the Olympics, it does not grant Gold Silver and Bronze, there is Win or Lose, Pass or Fail. Most of the time, you get nothing for second place, less than nothing for being 34th in 100. But telling children that results matter more than effort, that victory is important, is "shattering" to their self esteem. You can't tell a child they lost, so trophies for everyone. The problems arising from this; first is that victory becomes meaningless, if you get a trophy for no effort, why bother trying? The second problem is that those losers who got participation rewards grow up thinking they should be rewarded every time they fail, and rewarded for every thing they do. This trend is the fault of spineless coaches and educators who felt it easier to give everyone some small prize than tell the losers that they are losers.

At least people can do things for themselves... Or they used to be able to. Now we have "helicopter parents" who assist and manage every aspect of their childrens' lives. If Johnny doesn't do his homework, mom will do it for him. If a coach doesn't give Stevie a place on the football team, dad will have some words with him. These kids grow up, and don't know how to do anything themselves. This is the parents' fault, no doubt about it. Creating a scene when their precious fucking snowflake doesn't get the entire world on a silver platter, may they all die of some horrid ass fungus.

So where does all this leave us? These children are the future employees of all the companies in our country. How can we let the baby boomers retire when the oncoming generation is so fucking useless? They have no education, can't even do simple math without a calculator or computer. They expect high pay for minimal work, and a reward every time they complete a simple task. You can't deny them anything or they'll quit, can't ask them to DO anything, or they'll quit. And the businesses are going to be in such short supply of workers, that they will actually have to hire these fucking wastes of skin.

If I could abort the entire upcoming generation, I would. It's a scary prospect that in less than thirty years, liberalist bullshit and hippie psychology have undone centuries of progress and social growth. And these children will raise their children in much the same manner. Idiocracy is not just a film, it's the future. Humanity is going straight to hell, and it's riding the short bus to get there.
You know, Khell, we don't often agree on things. But we certainly agree on this. While I would have used less swearing and death threats, the over-all message pretty much hit the nail on the head. When I was a manager at a Burger King back in the day, the worst employees were these kids who thought they deserved everything. They wanted rewards and free food if they did the job we were paying them to do. And it was ridiculous. I couldn't tell you how many times I had to remind a kid that 'Hey! We aren't forcing you to be here! You don't want to work? Get out! But if you're here, and we're paying you, get your ass over there and make that freaking burger!' But I digress.

The education system needs a serious serious over-haul. I like some of the Eastern (Asian) practices, but whatever we do, it has to be done quickly. I know you aren't a fan of private school systems, Khell, but only there do I see the 'old fashioned' pass/fail system still in effect. That's where my kids are going.