Child's Play Halts Retake Mass Effect Donation Drive

[The Human Torch]

snip

Also, don't compare videogames to movies/books. Apples and oranges and such. Stop being so freaking rude.

As long as videogames are trying to be a storytelling medium, then they have every right to be compared to similar forms of entertainment.

This isn't apples and oranges, this is Granny Smith to McIntosh.

Not recognizing this fact is rude, and considering what particular community you're on, downright embarrassing.

Regardless of Mass Effect being art or not, of course things should be changed when customers are confronted with subpar quality like this. It's one thing if you knew that the ending sucked and you bought it anyway, but if you have no prior knowledge that it was going to be THAT bad, than you have a right to demand a change, or at least a refund (which only Amazon has been offering). Most stores won't take it back.

Art is not devoid of all critism, simply because it's art. In my city there was a lot of hubbub about a new statue coming that would be a dedication to large forest area's we have, and how they are supposed to be preserved forever. People liked that idea, so money was put aside for it (a large sum even), a committee erected to select an artist for it and the whole thing was under way.

One year and a whole lot of taxpayer money further; durving the unveiling, the statue was nothing more than two green pipes bent together at the end to represent a needle from a pine tree. NO ONE clapped and the same day a massive complaint register started to remove the statue and get the money back from the artist.

Two months later, statue removed, artist was sued to get the money back and everybody was happy that at least justice was served.

A player has every right to complain about an ending that is THIS bad. Especially because 95% of the game is actually good. The drop in quality is so obscene, it's not even funny anymore.

 

[likalaruku]

They really named their organization after a horror franchise about a doll who kills children?

 

[Sperium 3000]

*Sighs* I am an avid defender of the status of the game industry as art. I'm also an avid defender of the gaming community as a whole. Things like this whole fiasco just make that all the more difficult.

 

[The Human Torch]

Regardless of Mass Effect being art or not, of course things should be changed when customers are confronted with subpar quality like this. It's one thing if you knew that the ending sucked and you bought it anyway, but if you have no prior knowledge that it was going to be THAT bad, than you have a right to demand a change, or at least a refund (which only Amazon has been offering). Most stores won't take it back.

Here's the thing, no you don't. You already played through the entire game, you got your monies worth out of it. The game was functional throughout the entire thing, there was nothing preventing you from finishing. The only thing marring the end was the fact that you didn't like the ending.

I just recently saw The Hunger Games, I didn't like it, the direction was shotty, and the movie was overly-long and boring through most of it. Here's what I did, I got up, said it sucked to my friends and left. I didn't demand that they change it, I didn't demand a refund from the theatre. I didn't sign a petition for them to change the movie.

Well, maybe you just take everything in your stride, but I've seen a few shitty movies where I walked out and asked for my money back, and I got it back without a fuss.

It's not easy to change the ending of a movie, because it's quite final once it hits theaters. Maybe some things get changed/added with a blu-ray release, but besides George Lucas, there are not many directors who do change chunks of a movie.

A videogame is NOT a movie, it's an interactive, completely changable medium. Maybe during the SNES/Megadrive era we couldn't change diddly-squat, but with this fantastic thing we call the internet we can change things. Just look at the obscene amount of DLC that is out there.

Bioware CAN change Mass Effect. If they have any shred of decency they will. If not, they are just like any other asshole company out there, but you can't blame us for trying.

Ow, and I didn't play Mass Effect 3, I happened to bump into all this hubbub before I got around to it and I decided that it was enough for me to return the game (sealed) to the store where I got it.

I will rebuy it as soon alterations are made. If nothing is ever altered, then it will never be part of my videogame collection.

Captcha: easy as cake
Indeed.

 

[Steampunk Viking]

Wait a second... so the people who refuse to pay for a DLC ending out of principle thought they were PAYING for a new ending? Seriously, did these people even see the irony of their actions? Asking money back from a goddamn children's charity is utterly fucking disgusting.

[Child's Play] has been asked what the goal is, and how much they need to raise in order to get the ending produced. We've also been contacted by PayPal due to a high number of people asking for their donations back. This is in addition to readers who simply couldn't understand how this was connected to Child's Play's mission. We were dealing with a lot of very confused people, more every day, and that told us we had a problem.

That alone is fucking disgusting. I cannot believe I'm a part of a community full of whiny, entitled, and egotistical assholes. For years, we've been struggling with the stigma that gamers, as a whole, are hopeless losers who are prone to violence and childish behavior, and here we are proving them right.

Penny Arcade's Child's Play (and by extension, Desert Bus) has been one of the greatest and most wholesome thing to come out of the gaming community, and has really helped quell the image that we're mindless slaves to "murder simulators", and just because a single AAA game had a sub-par ending, the gaming community managed to turn this into a fucking circus. Donate because you want to help Child's Play, not because your unwarranted self-importance demands that you somehow deserve a better ending simply because you may or may not have actually purchased the product.

I'm sick of this attitude. It needs to fucking stop. No other medium of entertainment stoops so low as to make petitions and campaigns over such trivial bullshit.

You don't see people sending death threats to Michael Bay's personal phones in response to Transformers.

You don't see people making massive online petitions to boycott Eoin Colfer's And Another Thing... or Brian Herbert's Sisterhood of Dune.

You don't see people withdrawing their donations from a food drive because they wanted a different ending to The Sopranos.

We're supposed to show the world that we're much more mature than this, and instead we're turning into another self-indulgent internet mob.

[HEADING=1]Go fuck yourselves[/HEADING]

Hear hear, I agree 100% with this!

 

[MiloP]

If a game is broken, sure, demand it your money back. But that only applies if it is unarguably, unquestionably broken. I took Brink back on Day 1 because the online features barely worked, I got maybe one good game out of a few hours of trying, so I demanded my money back because it ruined the ENTIRE game, since it was pretty much solely online.

No matter which way you cut it, Mass Effect 3's ending did not ruin the entire game. It just didn't. It was barely there, and so disjointed from the rest of the story that saying it ruined the whole game is a bit overblown. Now that I've seen it, yeah, I can understand how people are upset, I can understand that a few people might end the game on a sour note, but is that worth every penny of your money back? No, not really. There's also the fact that the ending is not unarguably, unquestionably broken, since lots of people have come out saying they love/like/don't mind the ending.

I have been using the "BioWare have the right to do any ending they want", but that argument does go both ways - if BioWare admit that they thought the ending was shit, that they did it as a Hail Mary around the writers table at 4am and slotted it into the story without a thought, then apologize and retcon the ending, then I won't do anything to stop them. They have the right to change the ending if they thought it shoddy, just as much as they had the right to right to write anything they want in the first place.

But y'know, even if BioWare did say that, even if they made this admission, I probably wouldn't believe them. They've been pressured into it now. And if they did change the ending just because of pressure from fans, well, they wouldn't see a penny more of my money. Sacrificing their artistic integrity just to keep paying customers around is more money-grabbing than any Day-1 DLC.

captcha: know your rights

 

[The Human Torch]

Many theatres in my area will not do refunds, and they especially wont after you watch an entire movie.

You really hit the nail on the head about directors not changing their movies most of the time, even if it's something that's bad. It's something they intended to make, and if that's the way they wanted it, that's the way it is. It is literally no different with video games. Bioware made the game they intended to make, a lot of people (I'm not gonna say you didn't like it, because you haven't even played the game) didn't like it, that doesn't mean they should change it.

And as others have pointed out, film and video games are both storytelling mediums, the movement doesn't have a problem with the game parts, they have a problem with the story.

Also, really? returned the game based on what people have said about the ending? Really? How about you think for yourself and not let the gaming community's hivemind decide things for you? Christ, this is what's wrong with everything in the world, people refuse to think for themselves are so easily swayed by the communities they belong to.

I go to a few movie theatres around my city, and they all gave me my money back, but I didn't sit through the entire thing, I've been to a few movies where I walked out about 30 minutes in. That was good enough to warrant a refund appearantly.

They don't change their movies because they WANT to, they don't change their movies because they simply CAN'T. Too much is involved in a movie to redo a scene, backgrounds, actors, special effects... Even though a video game has a lot of work involved, it's 'easier' to change/add things, because it's all virtual, made up. Only thing that would be a bit difficult is getting the voice actors back into the studio again. Although I've never seen a voice actor turn down a gig.

And way to overreact to me saying that I didn't play the game myself. I saw the endings on Youtube, and all the points/reasons that were brought up (there are tons of videos out there). I didn't care about spoilers, if it saved me from an catastrophically bad way to end a game.
Yes, EVERYTHING is wrong with the world because I looked at video proof. Truly the apocalypse is here now!

Get off your soapbox.

 

[Velocirapture07]

I don't get all these people going "garrr, it's so selfish and/or childish for RME to cling onto a charity like that!"

Surely doing the right thing for (what you consider) the wrong reasons, is still the right thing in the end? Furthermore what kind of cynical creature must you be to try and cast people who just collectively raised $80,000 in a bad light?

Can't help but see the irony in that the people who are critical of RME calling RME childish, and then proceeding to let their personal feelings towards RME get in the way of recognizing that a huge pile of money was just raised.

Hold the line

The problem is the bottom-line motivation for the fundraiser was more then a little blurry. I approve of giving money to Child's Play in and of itself, but what was essentially implied (whether intended or not) was that 'We gave money to charity for a new ending Bioware, so if you don't give us one that the same as saying you're against charity' or to put it more succinctly 'Your ending makes sick children cry!', and that for me qualifies as some serious emotional blackmail, which I'm afraid I can't support.

If you want to give money to Child's Play, then do, and feel free to feel good about it. But don't hijack the cause in order to strong-arm people into doing what you say. That's not 'doing the right thing for the wrong reasons', that's 'making a mockery of the concept of charity'.

I don't see it that way at all. To me the RME movement and the charity always seemed just like an alternative to a internet petition to me (and a very positive one at that). It was simply a way of quantifying the amount of gamers who were distraught about the ending.

Instead of getting thousands of people to sign a useless petition, thousands of people donated money to a worthwhile cause in Childs Play. 80,000 dollars raised shows bioware and by extension EA that the community is seriously upset with your ending to the ME series.

I can't speak to the fact that some people may have seen it as you describe....but then again there are many people who couldn't be classified as intelligent even on their best day....

 

[Kashrlyyk]

.....

Second failed point.
If they wanted to not seem entitled why did a large amount of people want their money back?.....After all you argued they are within their rights to do so.

a) Wanting your money back has nothing to do with being entitled!

b) What makes you so sure that lots of people wanted their money back? Just because Tycho said it, it is automatically true?

c) Noone has delivered any reasons against "victoriakm"'s post explaining why it is OK to want a refund, including you. You all just spout hateful shit and demonize whoever wants their money back, but can not give a single argument against that one post. So unless someone can point out a flaw in that post I REFUSE TO INSULT OTHERS, like oh so many people on here do.

Bring a counterargument or STFU about that point!

http://social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/355/index/9845819/229#10481951

3rd failed point.
It is not easier to just donate 10000$ since it would have to go through accounting to go through tax local legistration. A Signed copy of a game can go though the development relatively easily.

Put up bottle with a slit in the lid, print "Child's play" on the bottle. Collect money from employees and donate that. You know like normal people do it.

4th failed point
Donating 10000 dollars to Child's Play will not anonymously will not teach your millions of customer that there is such a thing as Child's Play.

With that one I would agree if for even a moment I would think they wanted to raise awareness for Child's Play. As described above they could have collected and donated money and then make a website with reasons why they want to support that charity. Instead we got this: http://blog.bioware.com/2009/12/15/dragon-age-origins-ebay-auction-for-childs-play-charity/

Notice how the Child's Play Logo and link to the Charity website is nowhere to be found? That Dragon Age is mentioned more times then Child's Play even if you ignore the picture? Child's Play is mentioned in the title and the text BELOW the picture, not once above it, so that you read the name of the game a lot before the charity is really mentioned? "the top selling and award winning hit game" that that text is pure advertising and doesn't draw attention to the charity? That the game was released one month earlier?

This is more like what I consider raising awareness for the charity. It is also a Bioware website: http://blog.bioware.com/2009/12/04/bioware-childs-play-and-the-gift-of-the-yeti/

All of that together makes it clear to me that the first link is pure and utter advertising using a charity to do that in contradiction to what Tycho claimed how the charity should treated.

....

I don't see it that way at all. To me the RME movement and the charity always seemed just like an alternative to a internet petition to me (and a very positive one at that). It was simply a way of quantifying the amount of gamers who were distraught about the ending.

Instead of getting thousands of people to sign a useless petition, thousands of people donated money to a worthwhile cause in Childs Play. 80,000 dollars raised shows bioware and by extension EA that the community is seriously upset with your ending to the ME series.

I can't speak to the fact that some people may have seen it as you describe....but then again there are many people who couldn't be classified as intelligent even on their best day....

Yes, exactly.

 

[Therumancer]

I just wish this whole sorry business would come to a conclusion.

It just... isn't worth it anymore.

I've taken a fairly neutral stance this last week, and frankly it's becoming an unstoppable object against an immovable force.

Neither side is ready to cave, and when you bring in that kind of money being thrown around on a whim, plus the recent writing 'revelation' putting people's jobs and integrity on the line, this whole saga is becoming more dangerous than it's worth.

Well, actually a lot of things are coming to a head with the industry as a whole. People's jobs and integrity (especially the latter) being on the line is a good thing, because in the end a lot of this DOES come down to the integrity of those in the gaming industry, and there are some people in the industry that we would probably be better off without.

I can understand how a lot of people don't like this, especially if they aren't involved, but it's like any other major event... people are resistant to change, even positive change, and any kind of ongoing stress. What's comfortable, even if it's wrong, is preferable to most people than an upheaval to change it. It takes a lot to get people looking at the big picture on any appreciable scale.

All told we are liable to see if this will end in a couple of weeks when Bioware makes that promised April annoucement. What they are going to do is probably under heavy discussion.

As far as Child's Play goes, I do think that industry pressure caused it to close down. Penny Arcade is involved in it, and Penny Arcade requires the support of people in the industry for things like PAX and it's own relative success on the current level. The donation drive was getting a lot of attention because it was showing people throwing actual money into this to make a point, and demonstrate how this was differant than other fan uprisings. Wanting that banner down makes a lot of sense.

The "reasons" given for closing the charity seem to be somewhat dubious since they cite confusion over the nature of the donations, yet really I don't see how anyone could be confused about what the donations were going to, or how this was little more than a symbolic gesture.

I understand the article writer disagrees with me, but I think this whole campaign is just, and perfectly acceptable. That's actually odd coming from me, because I rarely get involved in causes like this to the extent that I have, I usually just say my piece and move on after a bit rather than putting in the kind of time and effort I have recently. It would be foolish however to think that there wasn't going to be any counter-action by the industry and it's allies because in the end what's going on here is not in their best interests, even if it is in ours. They don't want gamers to feel like they have any kind of influance over the industry at all.

That's what I think at any rate, even if many people doubtlessly disagree with me.

 

[DeepComet5581]

I just wish this whole sorry business would come to a conclusion.

It just... isn't worth it anymore.

I've taken a fairly neutral stance this last week, and frankly it's becoming an unstoppable object against an immovable force.

Neither side is ready to cave, and when you bring in that kind of money being thrown around on a whim, plus the recent writing 'revelation' putting people's jobs and integrity on the line, this whole saga is becoming more dangerous than it's worth.

Well, actually a lot of things are coming to a head with the industry as a whole. People's jobs and integrity (especially the latter) being on the line is a good thing, because in the end a lot of this DOES come down to the integrity of those in the gaming industry, and there are some people in the industry that we would probably be better off without.

I can understand how a lot of people don't like this, especially if they aren't involved, but it's like any other major event... people are resistant to change, even positive change, and any kind of ongoing stress. What's comfortable, even if it's wrong, is preferable to most people than an upheaval to change it. It takes a lot to get people looking at the big picture on any appreciable scale.

All told we are liable to see if this will end in a couple of weeks when Bioware makes that promised April annoucement. What they are going to do is probably under heavy discussion.

As far as Child's Play goes, I do think that industry pressure caused it to close down. Penny Arcade is involved in it, and Penny Arcade requires the support of people in the industry for things like PAX and it's own relative success on the current level. The donation drive was getting a lot of attention because it was showing people throwing actual money into this to make a point, and demonstrate how this was differant than other fan uprisings. Wanting that banner down makes a lot of sense.

The "reasons" given for closing the charity seem to be somewhat dubious since they cite confusion over the nature of the donations, yet really I don't see how anyone could be confused about what the donations were going to, or how this was little more than a symbolic gesture.

I understand the article writer disagrees with me, but I think this whole campaign is just, and perfectly acceptable. That's actually odd coming from me, because I rarely get involved in causes like this to the extent that I have, I usually just say my piece and move on after a bit rather than putting in the kind of time and effort I have recently. It would be foolish however to think that there wasn't going to be any counter-action by the industry and it's allies because in the end what's going on here is not in their best interests, even if it is in ours. They don't want gamers to feel like they have any kind of influance over the industry at all.

That's what I think at any rate, even if many people doubtlessly disagree with me.

Don't get me wrong. I am not resistant to change in the gaming industry. Hell, i'm a supporter of change, especially now that i've seen 2 GAME stores close this past week. I just wish that it could have been done a bit more diplomatically, and that it didn't drag on for quite so long, with more people taking sides and more revelations being unearthed.

I like change, just not some proponents of change.

 

[Therumancer]

Honestly, I have been opposed to the Retake Mass Effect thing from the beginning. The premise is inherently flawed - Donating to Child's Play is nice, yes. But how exactly is that going to get Bioware to release a new ending? The whole demanding a new ending thing, by the way, pisses me off, and I'll get to that in a minute, but first:

[Child's Play] has been asked what the goal is, and how much they need to raise in order to get the ending produced. We've also been contacted by PayPal due to a high number of people asking for their donations back. This is in addition to readers who simply couldn't understand how this was connected to Child's Play's mission. We were dealing with a lot of very confused people, more every day, and that told us we had a problem.

THIS IS ABSOLUTELY DISGUSTING! We're trying to get away from the hopeless violent loser gamer stigma, but it seems the community trips us up every fucking time! Child's Play has been the best thing gaming as a whole has EVER done, and here some people use it to ***** about ONE AAA game's supposedly sub-par ending.

Where does this sense of entitlement come from? WHERE!? People, you do not get to demand a new ending to a story because you didn't like it. This is the story that the storyteller has chosen to tell, and even as interactive as the story was, it is still their story.

Anyone remember this happening with a book? No.
How about film? Nope.
What about a TV series? Nope again.

Every other creative medium has thrown its share of bad endings, and gaming is the only one where campaigns and petitions crop up to change the ending. We need to show the world that we are bigger than this. That we can accept an ending and move on. Otherwise we are gonna show the world that we are immature losers addicted to mindless murder simulators.

Actually it has happened with films on a number of occasions, which is in part why some DVDs have "alternate endings" included which were what was cut or changed due to complaints during initial screenings. People have also referanced how books like say "Great Expectations" had their endings changed, and so on. TV series have reconned themselves in the past to change things, the most infamous example being the whole "Who shot JR" thing, where despite all of the discussions it generated it was complained about and seen to be a bad thing, not to mention the complaints by the fams of the actor, so they more or less decided it never happened and the guy just stepped out of the shower (literally) at the beginning of the next season and the series went on like it never happened. A lot has been written about it and how that infamous TV moment went down, and why it turned out like it did, but that's the bottom line as I understood it.

That said, this isn't really just about the ending, and that's why people that are trying to be "reasonable" are ignored, because they are usually out of context to the entire situation.

Let's be honest, the ending is crap, even as someone who doesn't think it's as bad as some of the more extreme elements have implied, it can't be defined as anything else. Even those who are against "Hold The Line" tend to agree that it is a nightmarish piece of filth. But really, that wouldn't be much of an issue because there have been other games and products that have ended just as badly, or worse, than have not received this level of outrage, and certainly not many cases where you have seen fans throwing around money to spam Bioware with cupcakes, or raise donations as a banner to get attention, or even actually HIRE lawyers and bring complaints to the FTC as opposed to simply talking smack in message boards. The thing you have to look at is what makes THIS case differant.

Well for one, part of the backlash is still over "Dragon Age 2" and while that was minor it contributed to the sheer rage when "Mass Effect 3" turned out to be garbage as well. Mostly though it's about how EA/Bioware sold out the ending for money, deciding that instead of finishing the trilogy as planned, they wanted to make it into a franchise and the best way to do that was not to properly end "Mass Effect 3" and in the process threw out the plans they claimed to have in place since the very beginning of the trilogy. Leading to the ending not even fitting within the spirit of the series up until this point. The ending was also set up to sell other products to see the entire thing, encouraging people to engage in multiplayer which is designed to be monetized to save time to get the full range of options in the ending, and also to do things like sell tie in apps that were going to be usable for the
same basic effect.... however most importantly Bioware's own design team made promises about this not being a standard game ending with a simple "A B or C" choice and that is what they have us. They also promised that all the answers would be given, and they were not.

See, a lot of the rage comes from interviews that were released as part of an app EA wanted to sell, where the guys writing the ending made it clear that they pretty much made up the ending at the end of the design process, which means that they had scrapped previous ending plans since one was supposed to be there since ME1. They also made it abundantly clear that they decided specifically not to answer the questions, and make the ending ambigious to generate discussion and hype.... presumably for the next game in the franchise.

Understand that this is not "speculation" on my part or anything of the sort, the interviews and information I'm referancing are out there, and even have their own threads here on The Escapist. The monetized multiplayer and readiness system can be seen just by turning on the game. If you have never played ME3, a basic run down is that to see all of the endings you need to have 4000 functional asset points and a full alignment bar (to save Anderson) or 5000 functional asset points and an alignment bar that isn't maxed (so Anderson dies). The number of points you earn in the game is reduced by a percentage based on your level of readiness, which can only be raised by playing that multiplayer moder where unlocks are sold for real money (though they can be grinded for over a long period of time by playing). As a result if you do not play multiplayer your points are halved so for all of the endings to be availible you would need 8000 or 10000 points to fit the requirements. Contrary to some statements there are not enough asset points in the game to get the 8000 to 10000 points needed without multiplayer, at least not yet, more could appear as paid DLC. I transferred a character who did ME1 and ME2 and could resolve problems "perfectly" to get all possible assets without having to choose between them in many cases, and maxxed out galactic readiness to 100% with some patience and with all my points counting instead of being halved I wound up with somewhere around 7800 points... mind you this is a perfect play through with their strategy guide, and I was shy of meeting that 8000 point goal with perfect readiness, if I had not done multiplayer I would have had 3800 points and wouldn't even be half way to the needed total. Other players have reported similar things, I have not seen anyone actually prove that there are 10000 potential asset points in the game, especially for characters created in ME3 as opposed to transfers. It is true that you do not have to pay anything to get all the endings, but you do need to grind multiplayer, and they are going to wave a cash shop in your face while you do it, and honestly the move seems to be aimed at people who just want to see all the endings and don't want to have to spend all that time in muliplayer.

In short the point is that people want Bioware to re-do this ending for a lot of reasons, it's not just because a few people didn't like the ending... if that was the case this would never have gotten to this level.

The gaming industry and press egging people on, probably hasn't helped matters any. All the claims of "gamer entitlement" and "artistic integrity" while they dance around most of the actual issues just serve to irritate people more. Basically when you call someone who is justifiably POed an entitled crybaby, that just makes him want to make you eat your words more.

Like it or not, the antics of the gaming industry, and the gaming press, backfired by making this personal for some people. Insulting the people bringing valid complaints is not going to make them see things your way.

Honestly when Bioware said they were going to work on this (and they did say that from what I'm reading) people probably would have chilled out a lot, if they weren't constantly under fire and being maligned, including by some fairly high profile sources. To be honest those who are complaining and insulting are largely what's keeping the mob going at this level.

 

[Therumancer]

I just wish this whole sorry business would come to a conclusion.

It just... isn't worth it anymore.

I've taken a fairly neutral stance this last week, and frankly it's becoming an unstoppable object against an immovable force.

Neither side is ready to cave, and when you bring in that kind of money being thrown around on a whim, plus the recent writing 'revelation' putting people's jobs and integrity on the line, this whole saga is becoming more dangerous than it's worth.

Well, actually a lot of things are coming to a head with the industry as a whole. People's jobs and integrity (especially the latter) being on the line is a good thing, because in the end a lot of this DOES come down to the integrity of those in the gaming industry, and there are some people in the industry that we would probably be better off without.

I can understand how a lot of people don't like this, especially if they aren't involved, but it's like any other major event... people are resistant to change, even positive change, and any kind of ongoing stress. What's comfortable, even if it's wrong, is preferable to most people than an upheaval to change it. It takes a lot to get people looking at the big picture on any appreciable scale.

All told we are liable to see if this will end in a couple of weeks when Bioware makes that promised April annoucement. What they are going to do is probably under heavy discussion.

As far as Child's Play goes, I do think that industry pressure caused it to close down. Penny Arcade is involved in it, and Penny Arcade requires the support of people in the industry for things like PAX and it's own relative success on the current level. The donation drive was getting a lot of attention because it was showing people throwing actual money into this to make a point, and demonstrate how this was differant than other fan uprisings. Wanting that banner down makes a lot of sense.

The "reasons" given for closing the charity seem to be somewhat dubious since they cite confusion over the nature of the donations, yet really I don't see how anyone could be confused about what the donations were going to, or how this was little more than a symbolic gesture.

I understand the article writer disagrees with me, but I think this whole campaign is just, and perfectly acceptable. That's actually odd coming from me, because I rarely get involved in causes like this to the extent that I have, I usually just say my piece and move on after a bit rather than putting in the kind of time and effort I have recently. It would be foolish however to think that there wasn't going to be any counter-action by the industry and it's allies because in the end what's going on here is not in their best interests, even if it is in ours. They don't want gamers to feel like they have any kind of influance over the industry at all.

That's what I think at any rate, even if many people doubtlessly disagree with me.

Don't get me wrong. I am not resistant to change in the gaming industry. Hell, i'm a supporter of change, especially now that i've seen 2 GAME stores close this past week. I just wish that it could have been done a bit more diplomatically, and that it didn't drag on for quite so long, with more people taking sides and more revelations being unearthed.

I like change, just not some proponents of change.

Well, diplomacy is a foregone conclusion when your looking at the insults being thrown at the people making the complaints. Bioware itself has said that they are working on fixing things from what I've read, that would have quieted it down, if it wasn't for all these people who are in denial of the truth and what was found out (more than Bioware is, they seem to be owning up to it, Chris Priestly even taking full responsibility for and acknowledging the validity of the "ending app" and it's interviews that helped stoke a lot of the fire) people would be waiting more patiently.

See, when you have gaming media personalities jumping on the "Hold The Line" movement especially after it was more or less acknowleged by Bioware (which was burned by it's own words), you wind up with a lot of people who start to take it more personally and want to do anything to make those people eat their words. Truthfully I think that a lot of people running media websites and such, are going to be dealing with the fallout from this for a VERY long time.

To put things into perspective, a lot of reviewers and critics are being seen as industry shills and anti-fan. Penny Arcade will probably wind up having to deal with a LOT of people associating them with closing down the donation drive being used as a banner, especially given the dubious claims of "confusion" (which sounds pretty weak to me), especially given their huge connection to the industry through things like PAX. I think this isn't going to entirely die for a while, it might stop being about the ending, and while I doubt there will be any immediate apocolypse in the gaming media, I do expect people to wind up losing their jobs and integrity, and a lot of increasing "you attacked us when we needed you" sentiment that could very well go on for years.

This is a big deal, but has been made bigger by the behavior on the other side, not just because of pure fan rage.

 

[zehydra]

[Child's Play] has been asked what the goal is, and how much they need to raise in order to get the ending produced. We've also been contacted by PayPal due to a high number of people asking for their donations back. This is in addition to readers who simply couldn't understand how this was connected to Child's Play's mission. We were dealing with a lot of very confused people, more every day, and that told us we had a problem.

That alone is fucking disgusting. I cannot believe I'm a part of a community full of whiny, entitled, and egotistical assholes. For years, we've been struggling with the stigma that gamers, as a whole, are hopeless losers who are prone to violence and childish behavior, and here we are proving them right.

Penny Arcade's Child's Play (and by extension, Desert Bus) has been one of the greatest and most wholesome thing to come out of the gaming community, and has really helped quell the image that we're mindless slaves to "murder simulators", and just because a single AAA game had a sub-par ending, the gaming community managed to turn this into a fucking circus. Donate because you want to help Child's Play, not because your unwarranted self-importance demands that you somehow deserve a better ending simply because you may or may not have actually purchased the product.

I'm sick of this attitude. It needs to fucking stop. No other medium of entertainment stoops so low as to make petitions and campaigns over such trivial bullshit.

You don't see people sending death threats to Michael Bay's personal phones in response to Transformers.

You don't see people making massive online petitions to boycott Eoin Colfer's And Another Thing... or Brian Herbert's Sisterhood of Dune.

You don't see people withdrawing their donations from a food drive because they wanted a different ending to The Sopranos.

We're supposed to show the world that we're much more mature than this, and instead we're turning into another self-indulgent internet mob.

[HEADING=1]Go fuck yourselves[/HEADING]

I guess I'll just quickly reply before your post'll get yourself suspended.

But chill a bit man, what community? You're not a part of that community, because there is no "Gamer Community". It's a lie. Gamers are not some kind of organization(a community), gamers are just a demographic, there is a difference.

Don't worry about how "gamers" are treated by the mainstream, just go along and realize that some people are assholes. Some aren't. You don't have to be part of any group just because you play games, and you don't have to feel any embarrassment because some people that play video games behave idiotically.

Basically, I agree with your post, just don't feel a need to associate yourself with that nonsense.

 

[DeepComet5581]

I just wish this whole sorry business would come to a conclusion.

It just... isn't worth it anymore.

I've taken a fairly neutral stance this last week, and frankly it's becoming an unstoppable object against an immovable force.

Neither side is ready to cave, and when you bring in that kind of money being thrown around on a whim, plus the recent writing 'revelation' putting people's jobs and integrity on the line, this whole saga is becoming more dangerous than it's worth.

Well, actually a lot of things are coming to a head with the industry as a whole. People's jobs and integrity (especially the latter) being on the line is a good thing, because in the end a lot of this DOES come down to the integrity of those in the gaming industry, and there are some people in the industry that we would probably be better off without.

I can understand how a lot of people don't like this, especially if they aren't involved, but it's like any other major event... people are resistant to change, even positive change, and any kind of ongoing stress. What's comfortable, even if it's wrong, is preferable to most people than an upheaval to change it. It takes a lot to get people looking at the big picture on any appreciable scale.

All told we are liable to see if this will end in a couple of weeks when Bioware makes that promised April annoucement. What they are going to do is probably under heavy discussion.

As far as Child's Play goes, I do think that industry pressure caused it to close down. Penny Arcade is involved in it, and Penny Arcade requires the support of people in the industry for things like PAX and it's own relative success on the current level. The donation drive was getting a lot of attention because it was showing people throwing actual money into this to make a point, and demonstrate how this was differant than other fan uprisings. Wanting that banner down makes a lot of sense.

The "reasons" given for closing the charity seem to be somewhat dubious since they cite confusion over the nature of the donations, yet really I don't see how anyone could be confused about what the donations were going to, or how this was little more than a symbolic gesture.

I understand the article writer disagrees with me, but I think this whole campaign is just, and perfectly acceptable. That's actually odd coming from me, because I rarely get involved in causes like this to the extent that I have, I usually just say my piece and move on after a bit rather than putting in the kind of time and effort I have recently. It would be foolish however to think that there wasn't going to be any counter-action by the industry and it's allies because in the end what's going on here is not in their best interests, even if it is in ours. They don't want gamers to feel like they have any kind of influance over the industry at all.

That's what I think at any rate, even if many people doubtlessly disagree with me.

Don't get me wrong. I am not resistant to change in the gaming industry. Hell, i'm a supporter of change, especially now that i've seen 2 GAME stores close this past week. I just wish that it could have been done a bit more diplomatically, and that it didn't drag on for quite so long, with more people taking sides and more revelations being unearthed.

I like change, just not some proponents of change.

Well, diplomacy is a foregone conclusion when your looking at the insults being thrown at the people making the complaints. Bioware itself has said that they are working on fixing things from what I've read, that would have quieted it down, if it wasn't for all these people who are in denial of the truth and what was found out (more than Bioware is, they seem to be owning up to it, Chris Priestly even taking full responsibility for and acknowledging the validity of the "ending app" and it's interviews that helped stoke a lot of the fire) people would be waiting more patiently.

See, when you have gaming media personalities jumping on the "Hold The Line" movement especially after it was more or less acknowleged by Bioware (which was burned by it's own words), you wind up with a lot of people who start to take it more personally and want to do anything to make those people eat their words. Truthfully I think that a lot of people running media websites and such, are going to be dealing with the fallout from this for a VERY long time.

To put things into perspective, a lot of reviewers and critics are being seen as industry shills and anti-fan. Penny Arcade will probably wind up having to deal with a LOT of people associating them with closing down the donation drive being used as a banner, especially given the dubious claims of "confusion" (which sounds pretty weak to me), especially given their huge connection to the industry through things like PAX. I think this isn't going to entirely die for a while, it might stop being about the ending, and while I doubt there will be any immediate apocolypse in the gaming media, I do expect people to wind up losing their jobs and integrity, and a lot of increasing "you attacked us when we needed you" sentiment that could very well go on for years.

This is a big deal, but has been made bigger by the behavior on the other side, not just because of pure fan rage.

Ah. A man with splendid opinions. How i've missed people who can formulate sentences.

Bioware I think could have handled this much better. All it would have taken, in my opinion, is a statement saying "Due to overwhelming Customer feedback, we have decided to look again at the ending and hope to address the complaints we have been receiving. We would like to request that you remain patient while we work on this issue."

I can pretty much guarantee that would have silenced a lot of naysayers. Instead, they dodge around the issue, upsetting tens of thousands of fans and much of the gaming industry, forcing a member of the writing team to come out and denounce and expose Mr Hudson publicly. They even released the app you mentioned, which shows that the ending was nothing more than the idea of a child.

Bioware shouldn't have to say "Oh sorry about all the crap but we'll start fixing it now." Frankly, from a AAA developer, this shouldn't have happened in the first place. Don't get me wrong, I don't care in the slightest about the game's ending, but to see the ENTIRE industry, even people and companies completely unrelated, whip up a shitstrom the likes of which have never been seen before; to see respected people like Penny Arcade become pariahs simply for doing a sensible thing, all because of one person's stupid decision? I don't want to see how everything will have changed by the time this is all over.

Reviewers have almost always been seen as industry shills. Gamespot and IGN were just unfortunate enough to be outed by disgruntled former employees. Think about it. They make a living reviewing games. If they keep giving bad reviews, are they going to get given more games? No. So they lie through gritted teeth to get that next paycheque.

And breathe...

 

[CrazyGirl17]

(Face Palms) ...I hate people sometimes, I really do.

Besides, what's more important? The health/welfare of children... or having the ending of a video game changed just because you hate it?

...And if you said the latter, then screw you.