China riots, island tensions and the UN -updated

[C. Cain]

In the next half century China' military capabilities will likely equal or surpass the US. This, coupled with resource diminuation (we're expected to reach peak oil in a couple of years) will make war worthwhile for the side who wins (and given the proximity of China to the islands, the strenght of China's manufacturing sector, and the overall global weakening of America's position in the world, means China has a good chance to win).

No. MAD still applies.

There is also historical presidence outside of China's long, LONG hatred for Japan. China's name in Chinese is Zhongguo, which means "Central Kingdom/nation/government." Culturally, the Chinese think of themselves as the center of not just southeast asian geopolitical events but as the center of world history/events. over the last 20-30 years in particular China has been seeking to reestablish this historical role. Over the last decade, this has been coupled with stark increases in defense spending and defensive capabilities. China has a LONG way to go to meet American military capabilities, but it could easily be covered in a matter of a decade or two.

Well, China's hatred for Japan is not entirely unjustified. Whether they see themselves as being in the center of all geopolitical events is neither particularly relevant, nor particularly exceptional.

On top of this, China has a much bigger manufacturing core than America. America manufactures high tech things, such as planes, but many of the individual parts of these planes are made in other countries, such as China. China also holds a lot of US debt. If China called on the US to pay it's debt (effectively removing it's money into US investments) and halted manufacturing to the US and the west, China would crash the US economy and render it unable to mount and effective response. It's actually very plausible and relatively simple for China to do. If nothing else, there's no desire that China is interested in reestablishing itself as the "Zhongguo".

Yes, that may be true. To a certain extent. But China is an export oriented nation; they can't simply stop trading with the west. Unless they're keen on committing economic suicide.

But China has no problem with you and the rest of the west thinking they're too weak or too incapable to mount an effective challenge against the west. You might even say that's just what they want.

Oh, I don't think anyone underestimates China. I'd even say most people tend overestimate China's capabilities and the threat she poses to the west.

 

[C. Cain]

"Simple?"

A full invasion of Japan and the major islands? They will never attempt a full scale invasion for some rocks in the ocean. If only from a cost - profit perspective (if there's oil underneath the Kenkakuthingies, those islets), such an undertaking will be massive with no guarantee of success.

Of course they won't. I was being facetious.
Hyperbole to emphasise how much of a joke Japan's military is in comparison to China's.

 

[Fappy]

Damn this looks pretty damn serious
Hope we don't get another Tiananmen Square Massacre on our hands...

With how easy it is the access information in this day and age... I doubt China would want to repeat that horribly embarrassing mistake.

Oh don't worry, the Chinese goverment can cover up nasty business like that right quick. At least, it can for its own population. You ask any Chinese younger than 25 about the Tianamen Square massacre and they won't know what the hell you're talking about. You show them the picture of Tank Man and they'll think it's just modern art or something.

Oh yeah, I know. I was talking internationally. My friend just came back from a year in China and the first thing he did was do the "Tananman Square" test. XP

 

[Headdrivehardscrew]

If you think the rioting over the Senkaku islands is random or spontaneous, you're wrong.

If you think this is bad, wait for the same shit happening again over, say, the Spratly islands... or the poles, or any other disputed territory.

It's not only Islam that's eager to spread.

 

[Zorg Machine]

Damn this looks pretty damn serious
Hope we don't get another Tiananmen Square Massacre on our hands...

with all the recent political scandals in china the government might actually be happy about this. It wont turn into a war because china doesn't want to go into a war with USA and it wont turn into Tiananmen square because that would mean riots against the government instead of Japan.
Most likely, japanese people won't be granted visas for a while and japanese companies in china will suffer.

 

[TheBelgianGuy]

If Japan and China go to war at least we'll get to see Japan's giant robots and cyborg samurai. Yes, their arrow tips have miniature nuclear warheads inside, their blades can cut through the hardest substance know to man and their robotic horses have pez dispensers and breath fire.

LoL but seriously how would that work exactly if Japan and China did go to war? Would the Japaneses president just call up the U.S Navy and say "well good luck with that" ?

IIRC, after ww2, the Japanese had to pass a law by the USA that basically means Japan cannot declare war in any way. However the USA has a defensive treaty with Japan. This means that if China declares war on Japan, the USA automatically intervenes on Japans behalf.

 

[AverageExtraordinair]

If Japan and China go to war at least we'll get to see Japan's giant robots and cyborg samurai. Yes, their arrow tips have miniature nuclear warheads inside, their blades can cut through the hardest substance know to man and their robotic horses have pez dispensers and breath fire.

LoL but seriously how would that work exactly if Japan and China did go to war? Would the Japaneses president just call up the U.S Navy and say "well good luck with that" ?

IIRC, after ww2, the Japanese had to pass a law by the USA that basically means Japan cannot declare war in any way. However the USA has a defensive treaty with Japan. This means that if China declares war on Japan, the USA automatically intervenes on Japans behalf.

So yes basically, Japan has no reason not to rattle the saber then if it by default has the most powerful military organization on the planet treaty bound to help it if the saber rattling back fires.

 

[C. Cain]

So yes basically, Japan has no reason not to rattle the saber then if it by default has the most powerful military organization on the planet treaty bound to help it if the saber rattling back fires.

Said powerful military organization may object to their saber rattling.

 

[Dogstile]

"poll tax" riots

posted because quite honestly the "riot" in OPs video was laughable to me.

4:08 on that video is basically England summed up. The guy has manners in the midst of a damn riot, props to that guy.

OT: China won't do much to stop the riots, they're helpful for the time being. Its a shame really.

 

[AverageExtraordinair]

So yes basically, Japan has no reason not to rattle the saber then if it by default has the most powerful military organization on the planet treaty bound to help it if the saber rattling back fires.

Said powerful military organization may object to their saber rattling.

But its been so long since a ship vs ship battle has happened that Im worried that they might me too excited as the prospect to complain if Japan takes it too far.(being flippant)

 

[C. Cain]

But its been so long since a ship vs ship battle has happened that Im worried that they might me too excited as the prospect to complain if Japan takes it too far.(being flippant)

Doubtful. China and Japan are both too valuable as trading partners to let that happen.

 

[AverageExtraordinair]

But its been so long since a ship vs ship battle has happened that Im worried that they might me too excited as the prospect to complain if Japan takes it too far.(being flippant)

Doubtful. China and Japan are both too valuable as trading partners to let that happen.

I know Im just joking around there will almost certainly not be a war

 

[Tadd]

China is not the next big bad. They are a very old and well-established big bad.

*Face palm* Is there really such a thing as "good country" and "bad country".

What about the UK? We spread our Empire across the entire world, killing hundreds of thousands, stealing land and priceless relics, raping and pillaging and then establishing our way of life and governmental systems onto lands and populations that already had their own.

The UK is also very old and well-established at being a "big bad"

What about USA? They are a country founded on wiping out an indigenous race. A country founded by the ruling elite rebelling tp protect their assets from England's taxes. A country founded on civil war. A country that war-mongers to this day.

The US of A is a very new country and is also well-established at being a "big bad"

I am not forcing an opinion, in all honesty I am particularly bias towards China, because I love it here and I would like to represent a side to China that is not portrayed on Fox news. I just like to point out how things are not just shades of black and white (good and bad).

A final thought. Is China the villian in this event, in regards to the islands? China made offer to share the islands with Japan, to help end the dispute. Japan refused. I think China's approach here, is not a good example of what can be considered a "big bad"

 

[Amethyst Wind]

China is not the next big bad. They are a very old and well-established big bad.

*Face palm* Is there really such a thing as "good country" and "bad country".

What about the UK? We spread our Empire across the entire world, killing hundreds of thousands, stealing land and priceless relics, raping and pillaging and then establishing our way of life and governmental systems onto lands and populations that already had their own.

The UK is also very old and well-established at being a "big bad"

What about USA? They are a country founded on wiping out an indigenous race. A country founded by the ruling elite rebelling tp protect their assets from England's taxes. A country founded on civil war. A country that war-mongers to this day.

The US of A is a very new country and is also well-established at being a "big bad"

I am not forcing an opinion, in all honesty I am particularly bias towards China, because I love it here and I would like to represent a side to China that is not portrayed on Fox news. I just like to point out how things are not just shades of black and white (good and bad).

A final thought. Is China the villian in this event, in regards to the islands? China made offer to share the islands with Japan, to help end the dispute. Japan refused. I think China's approach here, is not a good example of what can be considered a "big bad"

Having lived there, China does indeed get a raw deal from foreign news media........in some ways. The whole 'we hate foreigners' ideal is blown way out of proportion, however while I lived there I still got so sick of the politics of the place I left after 6 months (though it could have been the meat served on the bone).

Frankly what I found with China was that they had no concept of 'work smarter, not harder'. Tim and again I came across orders that simplified to "Do it this way and don't question why." That was their culture.

That being said, if you can avoid politics (like whether or not to strike your children) I found the people to overall be very pleasant and could easily have a good time on any given day.

The concept of 'face' was something I recognised, having seen it in many forms elsewhere, but rejected for the way they went about it and obsessed over it. I found that to succeed in early life in China you had to be cutthroat (or usually your parents had to be cutthroat with you and others) and after the results were in it was near impossible to shake up the pecking order. It wasn't quite the same as Mao's 'everything for the party slogan' but it was descended from it.


I may not like the Chinese culture much but I don't mind the people and will defend the country from people who haven't been there and experienced it firsthand and base their opinion on what the BBC/FOX news tells them. Good mabo dofu too.

 

[PhiMed]

China is not the next big bad. They are a very old and well-established big bad.

*Face palm* Is there really such a thing as "good country" and "bad country".

What about the UK? We spread our Empire across the entire world, killing hundreds of thousands, stealing land and priceless relics, raping and pillaging and then establishing our way of life and governmental systems onto lands and populations that already had their own.

The UK is also very old and well-established at being a "big bad"

What about USA? They are a country founded on wiping out an indigenous race. A country founded by the ruling elite rebelling tp protect their assets from England's taxes. A country founded on civil war. A country that war-mongers to this day.

The US of A is a very new country and is also well-established at being a "big bad"

I am not forcing an opinion, in all honesty I am particularly bias towards China, because I love it here and I would like to represent a side to China that is not portrayed on Fox news. I just like to point out how things are not just shades of black and white (good and bad).

A final thought. Is China the villian in this event, in regards to the islands? China made offer to share the islands with Japan, to help end the dispute. Japan refused. I think China's approach here, is not a good example of what can be considered a "big bad"

I was using Sleekit's phrase. So if you want to engage in a long, misdirected tirade, please direct it towards the person who used it initially. Thanks.

Also, I'm sure there were a lot of people who really felt like Stalinist Russia, Nazi Germany, and the Confederacy were misrepresented by the media. That doesn't make them less horrific.

 

[Stu35]

they aren't "imperialist" at all.

seriously there's been thousands of years of Chinese history so it should be pretty damn easy for you to pull out a lengthy list of countries supposedly "imperialist" China has attacked or annexed or whatever during that time right ?

on you go.

do it.

stuck ?

ye actually there are only about 2 possible candidates that you could even dubiously claim and that's in over 2000 years of continuous history as unified state. -.-

what China does do is work on the basis of old maps created long before western and regional powers such as Japan forced the map of their country to change due to their own "imperialism".

China basically doesn't have an "imperialist" or "expansionist" aims and if you believe otherwise you really don't understand China or the Chinese.

simplistically all they care about is China and unifying the mostly small parts that have been hacked off it during "The century of humiliation" ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Century_of_humiliation ) due to outside imperialism conducted against them.

And as a Briton I just want the 13 colonies back.

Then there's reality...


It's very easy for people to say that we westerners don't understand China or Chinese history, predominantly because it's true. That does not, however, mean that China just gets to ignore what the rest of the world is saying/doing. If it did then Britain could equally start getting pissed off about what we've lost in our 400 odd years of unity.

I find it interesting you declare China to have been united for over 2000 years, didn't the Yuan dynasty get founded by the Mongolians in something like the 1200s? Which is about, 800 years ago. That's just one of the many, many occasions the Mongolians came and took what they wanted from this 'unified state'.

Now, because I'm an ignorant westerner, my history aint great, but I do know that part of the reason China kept getting the shit kicked out of it by the Mongols was because, despite having one emperor, they failed miserably to work as a single unified nation.

One may as well claim that Britain, Canada, Australia etc. etc. etc. are all the same country because we have the same queen.

 

[Gatx]

A final thought. Is China the villian in this event, in regards to the islands? China made offer to share the islands with Japan, to help end the dispute. Japan refused. I think China's approach here, is not a good example of what can be considered a "big bad"

I dunno, from what I've read here it seems like China wasn't really in the position to make that offer.


Captcha: laser beams (hell yeah, I'd take this over random hard to read letters or advertisements any day)

 

[direkiller]

"heroes" who blitzed London.

[edit: typo]

except they do have memorials to fallen solders of WWII,WWI including that of the Battle over Brittan.
http://www.thirdreichruins.com/memorials.htm


as for this whole thing it's not any diffident then the Falklands(Cultural pretext used for a resource grab). use whatever excuse you want but ima gona call a spade a spade.

 

[ElPatron]

Tell that to the Tibetans who they invaded in 1956, the Indians who they attacked in 1962, the Russians who they attacked in 1969 and the Vietnamese who they attacked in 1979.

to the Chinese Tibet is part of China. it only existed as an independent state for 30 years of its entire history. "old maps" as i said before.

So let's wreck havoc in Kosovo. Again.

A country's culture should not dictate their international relationships. Whatever their beliefs on China as a territory are, they is worth exactly "jack-shit" outside their borders.

EDIT: By the way, my country owned a territory bigger than Europe. I don't think we need it back just because we owned it for several centuries.

Many people in the UK think it is bat-sh*t crazy, that people in America can walk the streets with guns

You can't walk in the streets with guns unless you are in a state that allows open or concealed carry. Plus, you have to respect that state's laws concerning training and licensing. Concealed carry is correlated to the drops in violent crimes on the street.

That issue is specifically about blind knee-jerk reactions, not "ignorance" of different cultures. People in the UK got what they asked for even though it had nearly no effect on the already low gun crime.

Imagine if Germany had shrines to the "heroes" who helped exterminate the millions of Jews in the extermination camps and to the "heroes" who blitzed London... maybe now you have a small insight as to how delicate things are over here.

And that would be okay, if it wasn't for Germany's political correctness when it comes to Nazism. People are too easily offended, a shrine to the SS would be the ultimate lulz generator.

Plus, the people fighting in the front lines are not at fault for what Nazism did. They died in battle and they deserve no disrespect just because of the flag they were fighting for.

 

[EquestrianGeneral]

And here I was hoping that this was going to be about the Chinese citizens taking a stand and rioting because they wanted more freedom of speech, or more freedom in general.

But no, it's about islands.

-_____-