China riots, island tensions and the UN -updated

[Zyst]

snip

"Dang look at dem savages robbin and lootin!"

On a more serious note If China decides to steamroll Japan I doubt the U.S. would declare war on them. They will probably put up some half ass defense and then pull out. China is looking strong and lethal. Japan should not take this lightly.

It's profitable for the US to declare War on China, leaving aside the fact that they are forced to through the treaty the debt of the US towards China (Which I think is 10% of the total US Debt?) if the country is at war besides the obvious fact that the debt stops being paid in case they win they can establish treaties to their benefit. Namely a no-arms and no-conflict one, China in a couple of decades will probably get a military strong enough to beat the shit out of the US, it sounds crappy but they do have a LOT of people, currently? The US could probably win, later on it's uncertain. Although the US is highly dependent on imports from China (and who isn't?) it still wouldn't be the worst thing.

And again, they have a treaty with Japan that pretty much says "You guys can only have a limited army and can NOT declare war upon a country, if you guys get into a war against your will then we will intervene in your favor" (Something along those lines, wiki it up if you want more info.)

But that's how it is.

If China started shit with Japan and the US got involved via the defensive treaty then what would the allies of the United states do in that situation.

Absolutely nothing unless they have a treaty saying that if one nation goes to war the other party must also go to war. Called Treaty of Mutual Assistance I believe, but I'm not 100% sure.

Unless you didn't mean that as a question, then I didn't really understand your statement

 

[Tomeran]

This is madness. MADNESS!

I didnt follow these riots too thoroughly in the news because I thought they were relativly minor(Anti-japan protests and such arent a new phenomenon in China), but 85 cities?!

Think about that: Many countries dont even have 85 cities!

This is what hyper-nationalism does to people, and why I continue to argue that nationalism should just die off, and that we gradually start erasing national borders(like in the EU, but less clumsy and more competent-like).



I sure hope this does not escalate further, there is enough tension in the region as it is. Its a bit of a powderkeg, and if China actually takes offensive action against Japan, its going to blow. Imagine a fully armed conflict in asia, with -China-, and both Japan, the phillipines and Taiwan involved? Its hard to do that without the US stepping in. And from there its anyone's guess where it goes.

WTB ride off the planet.

 

[Nieroshai]

they aren't "imperialist" at all.

seriously there's been thousands of years of Chinese history so it should be pretty damn easy for you to pull out a lengthy list of countries supposedly "imperialist" China has attacked or annexed or whatever during that time right ?

on you go.

do it.

stuck ?

ye actually there are only about 2 possible candidates that you could even dubiously claim and that's in over 2000 years of continuous history as unified state. -.-

what China does do is work on the basis of old maps created long before western and regional powers such as Japan forced the map of their country to change due to their own "imperialism".

China basically doesn't have an "imperialist" or "expansionist" aims and if you believe otherwise you really don't understand China or the Chinese.

simplistically all they care about is China and unifying the mostly small parts that have been hacked off it during "The century of humiliation" ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Century_of_humiliation ) due to outside imperialism conducted against them.

Nepal. But go on.

 

[ChaplainOrion]

I would hate this all to turn into WWIII, not because of the death, violence, etc but because it will just sound so goddamn stupid. The Middle East erupted over a movie, Asia fought over some useless rocks and water, and America was all like "shit" and had to go fight in both places, dragging the rest of the world in because of diplomacy and such.

 

[SajuukKhar]

I find it sad that in a an age were people can make large hydron super particle collides, and other feats of science, we have yet to evolve past the barbaric nature of our caveman ancestors.

Even after thousands of years of evolution, our so called civilization is nothing really more then a facade was put up, but at even the slightest provocation we end up breaking down to our most base personality.

 

[AverageExtraordinair]

I find it sad that in a an age were people can make large hydron super particle collides, and other feats of science, we have yet to evolve past the barbaric nature of our caveman ancestors.

Even after thousands of years of evolution, our so called civilization is nothing really more then a facade was put up, but at even the slightest provocation we end up breaking down to our most base personality.

bingo, I have been saying this for years. Its never going to change either because its our nature. The advancement of our species has brought about many advances and change the way we live radically no mount of technology will change what we are at the core.

 

[Chrinik]

What is it with Asian countries and hating each other so much? They're getting to be almost as bad as differing religious sects that will murder each other at the drop of a hat.

The Japanese invaded China in 1937 and was in constant conflict until 1945. During the invasion and occupation anything up to 4 million Chinese died, including single incidents like the Nanking Massacre where 200-400,000 died. The Japanese are as about as popular in China as the Germans are in Israel for rather similar reasons.

The German-Israel relationship is rather good, thank you very much, and I could drive my german car through Tel Aviv without it getting fucked up by radical jews that get discounts if they yell "FUCK ALL THE NAZIS!"

On the Topic itself, holy smokes. China is kinda a crazy country. If they think they own something, they make sure everybody does...they scream like a child until the other one gives in because they are annoyed enough.

But serriously, 10/1 those "Japanese Stores" where owned by Chinese...I don´t see Toyota salesman here that are japanese, they tend to be german...

 

[Moth_Monk]

What makes all of this so laughably ridiculous is that most of the people involved now were not around when these racist blood feuds began. So why do these people even care?

(My above sentiment of course applies to anyone who carries on blood feuds for no other reason than "I don't like group X because their 'parents' did something (I may not even know fully ) to my 'parents.')

 

[JeffBergGold]

Not to incur the wrath of this thread but I think all riots are the same - blown way out of proportion at best. That riot in London about the police shooting a kid not long ago had random robbing and vandalism too which had nothing to do with the goal of the protest itself, people just took advantage of it.

Although I'm Chinese, I hardly cares about the history of what which country done to another over what back in the days. I respect the fact it is actual history that those pointless massacre and war deaths occurred but are we suppose to carry those kind of hating passion all the way through the future as if it's part of us?

This whole island business seems silly to me to begin with. It's like argument on the internet on a bigger scale to prove who got bigger epeen.

China has been running on injured pride for a loong time I don't believe for a second that they aren't going to payback Japan in someway for all the messed up things they did. China is simply biding its time. I don't think the US would honor their treaty with Japan. They wouldn't fully wage war, they'd temporarily engage and then pull out.

People tend to forget since the Japanese made those cartoons we love so much that they were just as bad arguably worse than the Third Reich.

 

[kuolonen]

What makes all of this so laughably ridiculous is that most of the people involved now were not around when these racist blood feuds began. So why do these people even care?

(My above sentiment of course applies to anyone who carries on blood feuds for no other reason than "I don't like group X because their 'parents' did something (I may not even know fully ) to my 'parents.')

Basically they have been brought up by chinese government to it. The communist party had the brilliant idea to help unify the country, by growing up young chinese into ultra nationalists and to shift attention from the rather iffy state of human rights in China. This involved spreading japanese hatred, which has been very effective. I remember watching document say that the younger generation in China hates the japanese more than the ones who actually suffered the atrocities. So, yeah.

Still, cant help but wonder if anyone at the top of people republic of China understands what hell they are breeding for themselves. They have in their hands a generation of fanatical nationalists greedy for war and composed with a majority of males due to one child policy. This is going to blow on their faces and hard.

 

[Allthingsspectacular]

Nationalism is stupid.

 

[Fluffythepoo]

What's this saying?


Nationalism. The ultimate killer of any sensible society. Well done China, well done indeed. This is why no one on Earth is willing to treat you like a grown up.

i am

also: itd be nice if china invaded japan for a change

 

[ResonanceSD]

also: itd be nice if china invaded japan for a change

Oh yeah, invasion, always a hell of a time.

 

[Squilookle]

I don't think the US would honor their treaty with Japan. They wouldn't fully wage war, they'd temporarily engage and then pull out.

Strictly speaking from what I've read about history, the US Military doesn't seem to know the meaning of "temporarily engage and then pull out."

Seems to me that once they get a taste for combat in a region, they stay until either they win outright, or until LONG after they should have admitted defeat and gone home.

also: itd be nice if china invaded japan for a change

Oh yeah, invasion, always a hell of a time.

This was literally the first thing that came to mind when I read that. Invasion, Wa-Hey!

 

[Overusedname]

But the Chinese government has a solid grip on the media, so the only reason these riots are happening is because they want it to happen.

Now THAT statement is more than a little debatable. They certainly control the media, but the benefit from starting this much violence, hatred and damage in the country locally is kinda hard to see.

But it is mostly the fault of government and media, yes. I just don't think they WANTED this to occur. They might have, but in my experience, people like this are usually just stupid, rather than evil.

 

[Lord_Gremlin]

I'm Russian and I'm in support of Japan here. I wouldn't even mind if our government sold them those islands of ours they want so badly... But this whole story just reeks - I mean, it's not like this is invasion or theft!
Damn you Chinese... Stuff like this always happens every time they feel like their "national interests" are touched in a slightest. This whole ruckus reminds me of old stories of Chinese showing naked butts to passing trains because those railroads were made in collaboration with USSR. Good god, grow up...
It's kinda scary too. Knowing that your neighbors are going nutz.

 

[Suijen]

If you're from a third world country that was a former colonized territory, then you'd understand the importance of sovereignty to third world countries. This may be a surprise to many of you, but China's not the only country that cares about sovereignty and pride. The ROK also has island disputes with Japan that have gotten quite ugly, and Pakistan and India are still throwing rocks at each other over Kashmir. The list can go on.

This wasn't actually that big an issue but the Japanese government decided to spark things up by purchasing the islands because it's time for an election in Japan, and nothing shows you're tough like starting things up. The problem is that if China recognizes the islands as Chinese territory, then the Japanese government has no legitimate right to purchase said land. This is why China and India have a border dispute; if China doesn't recognize that Tibet has the right to distribute its land with India, then any agreement is null.

It's unlikely the Chinese government inspired the riots because it forces China to play a hand when it doesn't want to. Now's a sensitive time for the Chinese leadership, and going to war right now really isn't in China's favor. This forces China to act, which is why they sent the ships, but haven't landed any troops. They don't want it to escalate. But they also can't stop the riots because it makes you look like a complete sellout. The Chinese people already hate the Japanese, but you're going to protect Japanese businesses from your own people? Will you expect Muslim policemen to beat other Muslims to protect an American who insults your religion? Considering how half-hearted Muslim police officers protected American embassies, apparently not.

This is a bit different than before because the possibility of escalation is pretty high. China won't back down, and its people will not back down either. They're pissed at Japan, but also pissed at the Chinese government for being pansies. That's why they're carrying Mao's portrait around and not Hu's.

 

[cerebus23]

If you're from a third world country that was a former colonized territory, then you'd understand the importance of sovereignty to third world countries. This may be a surprise to many of you, but China's not the only country that cares about sovereignty and pride. The ROK also has island disputes with Japan that have gotten quite ugly, and Pakistan and India are still throwing rocks at each other over Kashmir. The list can go on.

This wasn't actually that big an issue but the Japanese government decided to spark things up by purchasing the islands because it's time for an election in Japan, and nothing shows you're tough like starting things up. The problem is that if China recognizes the islands as Japanese territory, then the Japanese government has no legitimate right to purchase said land. This is why China and India have a border dispute; if China doesn't recognize that Tibet has the right to distribute its land with India, then any agreement is null.

It's unlikely the Chinese government inspired the riots because it forces China to play a hand when it doesn't want to. Now's a sensitive time for the Chinese leadership, and going to war right now really isn't in China's favor. This forces China to act, which is why they sent the ships, but haven't landed any troops. They don't want it to escalate. But they also can't stop the riots because it makes you look like a complete sellout. The Chinese people already hate the Japanese, but you're going to protect Japanese businesses from your own people? Will you expect Muslim policemen to beat other Muslims to protect an American who insults your religion? Considering how half-hearted Muslim police officers protected American embassies, apparently not.

This is a bit different than before because the possibility of escalation is pretty high. China won't back down, and its people will not back down either. They're pissed at Japan, but also pissed at the Chinese government for being pansies. That's why they're carrying Mao's portrait around and not Hu's.

Korea and japan have a long storied history of hatred and racisism, one thing you can always call japan out on is their extreme xenophobia and outright racial hatred between them and their neighbors. it is very telling that their word for "foreigner" means barbarian they have always seen themselves as more evolved and mature than other races traditionally, and they have not been afraid to express that.

If china invades japan however forget the USA, we are so owned by china it is not even funny when you national debt is greater than the entire age of the universe by a large margin and china holds the majority of it.

But would the world stand for such an act? Since china is such a come late to the party protest over these islands, and their general if it can make us money we want it no matter if we said anything before now or not, this is not some long standing dispute that goes back generations of tensions and conflict, this is something that cropped up the minute someone discovered oil and gas there *huge shocker* and china is getting ready to change leaders.

Add a dash of china's previous bulletproof economy starting to tank in the face of global economic woes, and this new leader and china may very well do something galactically stupid and start ww3.

I would also find it highly unlikely that the EU and others would not get involved if it escalated beyond saber rattling and grandstanding. Even if the US is on the sidelines because china bankrupted us over night, and even at that nothing says we cannot sell the EU and other all that military hardware we cant afford to run anymore.

 

[Suijen]

In Chinese, the word they use is 老外, or lao wai, which basically means old outsider. This basically means anyone outside of China's traditional imperial sphere of influence. Now it's just a generic term for non-East Asian foreigner, and carries no positive or negative intention nor is it really condescension or inappropriate to call someone that anymore it is for a Brit to call an E. Asian an oriental. A Japanese to the Chinese is not a lao wai.

I don't think debt has anything to do with US's willingness to defend Japan. The US is obligated to defend Japan, but it officially takes no side in the dispute, and would rather see peace between the US's largest Asian ally and its largest trade partner. It's unlikely that the American public really wants the US to become entangled with a war with China for obvious reasons. For China, which is still growing at 8%, warring with Japan can only backfire. It backfires if they win because they look aggressive at a time when China is spending so much of its money trying to appease its neighbors (and they really do talk Peaceful Rise seriously), and if China loses the party just looks pathetic.

The EU definitely would not get involved. There wouldn't be a point to it.

 

[cerebus23]

I think invading a sovereign nation in this day and age would bring near world wide scorn, and how could the EU and others not get involved if that were to happen?

I would be shocked not to see the "free world" take a stand. If such aggression were to occur.

Sure we should pursue peace, but the main message should be "back off" to china.