China riots, island tensions and the UN -updated

Suijen

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Apr 15, 2009
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The issue is not really about money, but about sovereignty. If the UN declared the islands not an island (and the exclusive economic rights were nulled), China would still fight for the islands for principle. The same thing applies to why China is so eager for Taiwan; it's not Taiwan's economy that they want, it's the reunification. It's why Deng Xiaoping was willing to go One-Country Two-Systems for 50 years, and was willing to send the PLA to Hong Kong if the Brits didn't return HK to China. Don't underestimate how much China values sovereignty. They (the government and the people) will trade their economy for it in a heartbeat.

The PLA since opening-up has been redefining its mission for engaging in limited warfare around its periphery. The idea that nukes will fly makes no sense, but China fighting a limited war to send a message isn't that far from reality. Their last few combat operations since the Korean War have basically been to send messages and act as demonstrations of capability. It's not Iraq with Chinese Characteristics. Most likely if China does fire the first round, their goal would be to push the Japanese off the island, and then withdraw back to the status quo.
 

IBlackKiteI

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Mar 12, 2010
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This is just the result of Chinese nationalistic fervor, Chinese/Japanese animosity and the fact that the Chinese government wouldn't be very inclined to let their people protest much else.

We're not going to WW3 or anything over some bullshit dispute over pieces of the ground noone but the Chinese and Japanese leadership have an interest in.

Man, it's like it's getting to the point where if the West hears of any form of internal unrest and/or territorial dispute anywhere in the world every nation on the planet is going to all of a sudden jump in or something. Like with the NK/SK shellings and the recent, or rather, perpetual, violence and turmoil in the Middle East.
Besides, do you know how god damn hard it is to have a war, as in a sustained conflict of nations, these days?

It's not so much here, but every time time something like this happens a lot of people I know, who typically don't know fuck about the affected area in question pretty much declare the apocalypse. So goddamn annoying.
 

Kopikatsu

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May 27, 2010
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Adultratedhydra said:
Also China isnt stupid. They know it would be a mainly Naval Battle and the Japanese Navy would trounce them in a Heartbeat.

End of the day we arent in the days of Blind Jingoism leading to war anymore and situations will have to deteriorate beyong name calling and little jabs at foreign policy before every pitches an almighty shitfit at one another.
Japan has no navy to speak of. The IJN was almost completely annihilated by the end of WW2 and one of the conditions of their surrender was that they weren't allowed to rebuild either the Navy or the Airforce. In exchange, the US said that they would protect Japan and it's assets instead.

But as far as Japan's armed forces go, they have almost nothing outside of ground troops.
 

UberNoodle

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cerebus23 said:
Korea and japan have a long storied history of hatred and racisism, one thing you can always call japan out on is their extreme xenophobia and outright racial hatred between them and their neighbors. it is very telling that their word for "foreigner" means barbarian they have always seen themselves as more evolved and mature than other races traditionally, and they have not been afraid to express that.
What an outdated and extremely generalised view. As resident of Japan for 10 year now, I find your statement bothersome. My objection isn't the history but the insinuation that Japan has never changed. Moreover would you make similar sweeping generalisations and definitions about the whole of your own nation or people, based on what your government, state religion, military do? I don't imagine you would, yet it's easy to make statements about the Japanese.

I have never witnessed any of this 'extreme xenophobia' in my time here. In fact, Japanese culture in the post restoration age has been defined by its absorption of foreign ideas. I've always enjoyed the theories that the failure of foriegn cars and electronics to sell in Japan is because of xenophobia, yet never is it considered that in those realms, Japan's market and loyalties are well and truly saturated with local choice.

In areas different to that, foreign product and import abound. Language study and travel is very popular, especially among the young but also the middle aged and elderly who travel or simply wish to experience something foreign and new. I was amazed in my first job here how many young people were involved in things like Habitat for Humanity and various foreign volunteering. Despite the history with Korea, pop culture, language and culture from Korea is very popular in Japan, at first among the middle aged, but now also the young with the advent of huge music acts.

Your assertion that 'gaijin' means 'barbarian' is erroneous, as the two kanji are simply 'outside' and 'person'. The word has been in use since before there was a 'Japan' as we know it, and thus also described people from what are today simply other prefectures. The more common and formal, 'gaikokujin' comprises three kanji which are 'outside' 'country' and 'person'. If this is 'telling' of a innate fear in the culture, perhaps you should know that the English word 'foreigner' has the same etymology in Old French and Latin.

As for the charge that Japanese 'have always' seen themselves as superior to other races, I would have to again disagree, as my experience with consulting in Japan has repeatedly heard a singular feeling -- that Japan is behind the world, failing and coasting on glories of the past Bubble economy. Perhaps in that time, nationalism was on the rise, yet then again, what evidence do you have that it was any greater than the nationalism in the USA, UK or any of the Western nations?

In my home country of Australia, I have witnessed incredible racism, bigotry and backward mindedness, yet I would never define 'Australians' with those terms. In Japan, there may undoubtedly many people uncomfortable with foreigners and sceptical of cultural change, yet that's the same everywhere. However in the West we have the great equaliser, English. With it, most people have no real need to learn new languages and culture, and yet they can still tout their openmindedness and tolerance as they demand all foreign visitors to 'come to them'. In Japan it is the other way around. And yet with only Japanese people speaking Japanese, there is a huge language barrier, yet I have I witnessed far more enthusiasm for foreign language and communication in japan than I ever had in Australia.
 

Robert Ewing

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Eh, Japan and China are token enemies. South Korea and North Korea are the same. England and France are the same. America and... the entire middle east.

I'm routing for Japan... despite the fact they have no chance if this does escalate. Sadly China is powerful beyond all recognition, so what chance does anyone have after the waves of Chinese genocide blacken the west?
 

Angie7F

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Nov 11, 2011
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People in 2chan saw this and said " What is this? Red Cliff?? Seems like John Wu".

Kopikatsu said:
But as far as Japan's armed forces go, they have almost nothing outside of ground troops.
Sure we dont have a "military", but wr do have troops. You mustn't under estimate that.
Also the reason why we dont have our own "military" is because we were banned to do so after WW2.
Instead we pay for the U.S. military to have bases on Japan.
I am sure they will be more than happy to start up some war with Chine on behalf of Japan to help their country our of this depression.
 

RoonMian

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Mar 5, 2011
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Strange... I always thought the Japanese army was like the German army. Strong but highly specialized in defense and completely integrated into the NATO so that they wouldn't even know where to march without a NATO mandate.

Not having a real military at all must make the Japanese feel extra uncomfortable when they turn on the news and see large areas of China go all 11.9.1938 on Japanese stuff. :\
 

Estelindis

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Jan 25, 2008
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UberNoodle said:
In my home country of Australia, I have witnessed incredible racism, bigotry and backward mindedness, yet I would never define 'Australians' with those terms. In Japan, there may undoubtedly many people uncomfortable with foreigners and sceptical of cultural change, yet that's the same everywhere. However in the West we have the great equaliser, English. With it, most people have no real need to learn new languages and culture, and yet they can still tout their openmindedness and tolerance as they demand all foreign visitors to 'come to them'. In Japan it is the other way around. And yet with only Japanese people speaking Japanese, there is a huge language barrier, yet I have I witnessed far more enthusiasm for foreign language and communication in japan than I ever had in Australia.
Well said. It's great to hear about your direct experience living in Japan. Thank you for this insightful and informative post.
 

Ryan Hughes

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Jul 10, 2012
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Here is a much better article on the Chinese Riots:
http://www.nybooks.com/blogs/nyrblog/2012/sep/20/beijings-dangerous-game/

Basically speaking, the Chinese government is stoking anti-Japanese sentiment for the purpose of covering up the major issues that effect China, like the rocky transition of power in Beijing, air pollution, political corruption, and wealth inequality.

These islands have no strategic value. People claim that there is oil and resources there, but being so small, the islands simply cannot be important in the long run. They are uninhabited, and indeed, uninhabitable for the most part.

During my trip to China last summer, tensions were high and people were concerned mostly about the changing economy and wealth inequality. As anyone who has been to Shanghai can attest, the wealth inequality there is simply staggering, and it is the rarest of occasions to even see blue sky through all the leaden pollution. These so-called "riots" are nothing more than camera fodder to distract the people from real issues that effect their lives.
 

Caverat

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Jun 11, 2010
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Yup, China is just like everybody else. Reminds me of the ongoing disturbances in the middle east, and the LA riots in '92.

Fun times, bring a soda.

My only complaint with the coverage of this type of thing is when the rioters are referred to as 'demonstrators' or 'protesters'. They aren't demonstrating anything beyond their ability to behave like an animal.
 

Squilookle

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Nov 6, 2008
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New developments:

* The US have set up a new missile base in Japan- strengthening their commitment to Japan's defence, while straining relations with the Chinese.

* On the anniversary of the Mukden Incident, Chinese riots reach fever pitch- extending now to one hundred and eighty cities across China.

* Economic effects take hold as Japanese businesses begin suspending operations across China.

* In the Chinese Capital, a visiting Hilary Clinton is warned by the Chinese to keep the US out of territorial disputes off the Chinese coast. China states it is prepared to use force if necessary to protect it's claims from Japan.
 

Stripes

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May 22, 2012
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Amethyst Wind said:
Steppin Razor said:
What is it with Asian countries and hating each other so much? They're getting to be almost as bad as differing religious sects that will murder each other at the drop of a hat.
They've been at war with each other. A lot.

It's no different than England/France or England/Scotland or England/Ireland. Well it's a little different as the last time the east Asian countries were at war was WW2, so there's still a fair amount of people who lived through that.

It'll fade in time but for the moment it's still contentious.
We arent at risk of war and we dont genuinely hate each other. The Chinese seem to genuinely hate Japan (for not being china it seems). It isnt comparable.
 

Stripes

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May 22, 2012
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Robert Ewing said:
Eh, Japan and China are token enemies. South Korea and North Korea are the same. England and France are the same. America and... the entire middle east.

I'm routing for Japan... despite the fact they have no chance if this does escalate. Sadly China is powerful beyond all recognition, so what chance does anyone have after the waves of Chinese genocide blacken the west?
England and France are not enemies, their relationship is certainly nothing like North and South Korea.
 

Amethyst Wind

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Stripes said:
Amethyst Wind said:
Steppin Razor said:
What is it with Asian countries and hating each other so much? They're getting to be almost as bad as differing religious sects that will murder each other at the drop of a hat.
They've been at war with each other. A lot.

It's no different than England/France or England/Scotland or England/Ireland. Well it's a little different as the last time the east Asian countries were at war was WW2, so there's still a fair amount of people who lived through that.

It'll fade in time but for the moment it's still contentious.
We arent at risk of war and we dont genuinely hate each other. The Chinese seem to genuinely hate Japan (for not being china it seems). It isnt comparable.
I wasn't saying that you were at risk of war or you full-on hated each other, just that there's bad blood from past conflicts.
 

Stripes

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May 22, 2012
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Amethyst Wind said:
Stripes said:
Amethyst Wind said:
Steppin Razor said:
What is it with Asian countries and hating each other so much? They're getting to be almost as bad as differing religious sects that will murder each other at the drop of a hat.
They've been at war with each other. A lot.

It's no different than England/France or England/Scotland or England/Ireland. Well it's a little different as the last time the east Asian countries were at war was WW2, so there's still a fair amount of people who lived through that.

It'll fade in time but for the moment it's still contentious.
We arent at risk of war and we dont genuinely hate each other. The Chinese seem to genuinely hate Japan (for not being china it seems). It isnt comparable.
I wasn't saying that you were at risk of war or you full-on hated each other, just that there's bad blood from past conflicts.
Comparing us to them makes it seem like you were.
 

Sean Steele

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Mar 30, 2010
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If this conflict drags the United States into it (As the US and Japan have a mutual defense treaty.) That has a real threat to start a world war.