Choosing one's beliefs.

[implodingMan]

I was talking to a friend of mine today over lunch, and during the conversation we briefly chatted about religion. His position is "that of a deist", he told me. He reasoned that "choosing to believe in God just has a better return on investment than atheism".

Anyone who is familiar with theological thought recognizes that this is Pascal's wager in a nutshell. I pointed this out to him and he claimed ignorance of it, saying he came up with it on his own. Pascal's wager isn't really the point of this thread anyway, so don't get too caught up on it.

The real focus is on his statement of "choosing to believe". This statement bothered me somewhat and as I've brooded on it I've become more interested in its problems. To me, something as profound as a belief structure is not greatly influenced, if at all, by conscious decisions. It's not like simply choosing to take the bus or walk, a choice that is based mainly on the circumstances that one is in, such as weather and distance.

Choosing whether or not you believe in a god, to me, seems closer to saying that someone chooses their morality, like in Fable. In the real world the concept of choosing your morals sounds idiotic. Our morals are based on inherent predispositions in our genes, combined with our interactions with our environment. I propose that belief in a god is the same, a combination of our genes and our environment that cannot be altered by the conscious will of man.

If one points out "religious experiences" as example of choosing one's faith, then I counter that this is not evidence of a conscious choice, rather it is a result of an environmental event changing one's unconscious predispositions.

This is something I've been toying with for a few hours and I figured I'd put it down. Criticize it if you want. I'm going to bed shortly but I'll check tomorrow to see if there are any responses.

edit: I should probably add that this is not a defense of Atheism, as it might look that way. I'm suggesting that if you want people to join your church you need to give them an experience that changes their underlying moral code, and not just expect true belief from something as fickle as conscious thought.

 

[fluffylandmine]

I don't necessarily(I'm not a crazy religious extremist) believe everything in Catholicism, but enough that it makes for a good set...

God in fact ,using logic, shouldn't and doesn't exist, but I still believe...I kind of had divine GPS going on for a while(sometimes it was against the church) and it just felt right down in my 'place where things feel right'.

Also you don't have to believe, just do good and don't be a jerk and you're set to go to the "place that everyone seems to want to go to"

 

[vede]

This is what I hate about all the "but if you're an atheist you don't get heaven and such" arguments. It's like suggesting that since FPS games are more common than RTS games a person should like FPS games instead, since you get more selection. It's just dumb. I doubt a person can "truly believe" something like deities just because there's a better payout in the end, they have to actually think that there's some guy in the sky watching you and granting your wishes and damning you to hell and such, because it makes sense to them (idiots).

(Yes, I called you idiots in the sense that you believe in one of the various super-being-in-the-sky theories. Not in regard to whatever field you're not an idiot in, like how to be an idiot or chemistry or computer science or whatever. Wait...)

(Yeah, this was probably a bit offensive, and I'm sort of sorry, but mostly not.)

 

[Graustein]

I agree. You can't choose to believe or disbelieve something. You can try to believe something, you can be willfully ignorant, but without external factors or meditation that results in some inner revelation, you cannot change your beliefs. That's what I think anyway. And that's just one of the many reasons Pascal's Wager fails.

 

[Erana]

From what I've seen, its all about what's been shoved down your throat as a child, divided by how much education you have recieved.

At least, that's what happened to a lot of my (formerly) Catholic friends...

 

[TheEggplant]

What most people who devote themselves to the current major religions fail to realize is that Lord Cthulu is going to eat them first.
Follow mighty Dagon into the briny dark and in that lair of the Deep Ones we shall dwell amidst wonder and glory for ever.

 

[vede]

From what I've seen, its all about what's been shoved down your throat as a child, divided by how much education you have recieved.

At least, that's what happened to a lot of my (formerly) Catholic friends...

Yes! A formula for philosophy! Erana, you win... the world.

 

[Erana]

From what I've seen, its all about what's been shoved down your throat as a child, divided by how much education you have recieved.

At least, that's what happened to a lot of my (formerly) Catholic friends...

Yes! A formula for philosophy! Erana, you win... the world.

Yay! Now I'm gonna force the Israelis and Palestenians to forget their differences and work to improve Palestine!. (I have trouble recognizing Israel as its own country, but that's my own opinion...)

 

[TheBluesader]

edit: I should probably add that this is not a defense of Atheism, as it might look that way. I'm suggesting that if you want people to join your church you need to give them an experience that changes their underlying moral code, and not just expect true belief from something as fickle as conscious thought.

"Fickle as conscious thought?" Boss, it's the so-called "experiences" that lead people to believe all kinds of loopy garbage. Experience is what drives us, but we're wired with really active imaginations, so lots of times we think we experience things that haven't actually happened. Analysis and thoughtfulness are the only things that keep us from sacrificing our children to UFO monsters every day. If anything, belief needs to be strictly evaluated mentally, not left to the whims of imagination and how good you felt at the Christmas Mass.

I was raised a screaming Evangelical and converted to Catholicism in college, and every decision I made about leaving/joining both was made entirely on the basis of "feelings" and "experiences." And you know what? The second I stood back and analyzed them against hard facts about the real world, I became a passive liberal atheist.

I'm all in favor of riding on experience. But if you're going to debate something as enormous as the existence of the divine, you need hard facts and evidence. You can't subjugate yourself to ideology entirely on the basis of feelings. That's how terrorists and virulent racists get converted to crazy.

 

[Fanboy]

This is how I see it: It doesn't matter what religion (if any) you belong to, nor whether god exists or not. What matters is how good a person you are in THIS life. If god does exist, and he would deny a person entry into heaven for not having worshiped him during their life, even though that person has lived a good, honest life, I think I'd rather burn in hell than live in his heaven.

 

[TheIceface]

I choose religion based on truth. Many people choose religion because it makes them feel good, they enjoy being a part of a community that focuses on morals, family values, etc.

The reason I chose the religion I have is because as of yet nobody has offered anything to counter any of the claims the religion has. The religion also doesn't disagree with the book that I hold as the guide of the religion.

Should you believe something exists simply because you can't prove it doesn't? Probably not, but the explanation of life is a puzzle, and so far, I've found the piece that fits the best.

 

[TheIceface]

This is how I see it: It doesn't matter what religion (if any) you belong to, nor whether god exists or not. What matters is how good a person you are in THIS life. If god does exist, and he would deny a person entry into heaven for not having worshiped him during their life, even though that person has lived a good, honest life, I think I'd rather burn in hell than live in his heaven.

But how good do you have to be to get into heaven if its all about being a good person? What if you kill only 1 person. What if you haven't killed anybody, but you constantly steal from the register at McDonalds? How many times can I hit my brother until I'm going to hell?

The problem with a "works-righteousness" religion, (one where you get into heaven via good deed, or lack of bad deeds) is that people are not perfect. You will not 100% succeed at being a good person no matter how hard you try, hence relying on somebody who can help you out (deity).

 

[Fanboy]

This is how I see it: It doesn't matter what religion (if any) you belong to, nor whether god exists or not. What matters is how good a person you are in THIS life. If god does exist, and he would deny a person entry into heaven for not having worshiped him during their life, even though that person has lived a good, honest life, I think I'd rather burn in hell than live in his heaven.

But how good do you have to be to get into heaven if its all about being a good person? What if you kill only 1 person. What if you haven't killed anybody, but you constantly steal from the register at McDonalds? How many times can I hit my brother until I'm going to hell?

The problem with a "works-righteousness" religion, (one where you get into heaven via good deed, or lack of bad deeds) is that people are not perfect. You will not 100% succeed at being a good person no matter how hard you try, hence relying on somebody who can help you out (deity).

If you try to do more good than harm, then you're a good person in my book. Mother Teresa could have eaten the flesh off a live baby and I would still consider her to be a good person.

Anyways, I wasn't saying religions should be based on good deeds, all I was saying is that if a god didn't take them into account when determining somebody's ultimate fate because they did not belong to a certain religion, then that god can fuck right off.

 

[mark_n_b]

The great existentialist debate over choice or predetermination. Fact is choice does exist, but it is clearly limited by socialization. Girls like pink, boys like blue, unless they are gay. That is taken to the extremes and happens from the moment we are pulled from the vaginal canal.

You would not walk into a library and stab someone repeatedly to get their wallet because you wanted a comic book. Why not? It is as valid an option as gathering funds as any. Because it's illegal? Let's say murder by mechanism of stabbing was decriminalized tomorrow, would you then? Probably not, most of us are conditioned to be empathetic and have no desire to physically harm or wish suffering on someone else. Because people, while flawed, are inevitably nice and worthy of assistance over harm. Such is how what we've been taught.

This is where you get most criminals coming from criminal families, most sexual offenders have been victims themselves. It has conditioned them against the norm.

Our morals are based on inherent predispositions in our genes

There is no solid evidence of genetic predisposition to behavior taking a significant role in complex social environments. Basically because there isn't a base or contrary group free of social influence to gauge against.

I doubt a person can "truly believe" something like deities just because there's a better payout in the end, they have to actually think that there's some guy in the sky watching you and granting your wishes and damning you to hell and such, because it makes sense to them (idiots).

(Yes, I called you idiots in the sense that you believe in one of the various super-being-in-the-sky theories. Not in regard to whatever field you're not an idiot in, like how to be an idiot or chemistry or computer science or whatever. Wait...

f*** you, it's bullshit shots like that that make it so the only people who really like atheists are other atheists. Not mentioning that this was already discussed, but it is one of the primary points of most fundamentalist faiths (which is why I'm not horribly comfortable with fundamentalism).

Additionally your whole god is a genie in the sky crap is dickwaddish (and I have no reserves saying this as you made it very clear that you acknowledge that you were not at all reserved about being an asshole) sit down with a rabbi, or a monk, or a bishop for five minutes and ask them if God grants wishes, I guarantee, not one of them will say yes. Over simplifying and being offensively glib is objectionable because people of faith believe more that the world and life is something special and to be cherrished, not that there is a magic sorcerer who will give you gold for killing sheep. And breaking it down to that, when in fact it is not makes you an asshole. You want to be one, good job, mission accomplished, please post something to show me your 1337 flaming skills to Pwn my n00b butt to finish the cycle.

Aetheism is the only religious belief system that actively encourages its practitioners to make people of other beliefs feel ashamed for having other belief. Christianity, Judaism, Catholicism, Hinduism, Islam, Shintoism, Buddhism... at their core these faiths are about honoring your fellow man, honoring yourself, and honoring your world. Believe in God or not, atheism should take some pointers. Ignoring you twerps who are "atheist" until christmas time (when there are presents) because you want to make mom and dad angry and don't like going to church, the whole movement is supposed to be driven by an attempt at universal understanding that is not fueled by the established religious order which has lead to so much violence and suffering (which is where fundamentalism begins making itself a case against). It's supposed to be about seeing life as more than a test and important because it is what all we have in this entire universe.

But, a couple of idiots on a forum, and we see it's apparently about showing how smart you are.

Good grief... you know, you could have put forward the issue of choice as it applies to education and knowledge, or laws and societal norms, or... well, you chose religion, keep practicing. The goal is to bring up issues in a way that's not going to lead to someone pissing someone else off.

 

[Aries_Split]

Aetheism is the only religious belief system that actively encourages its practitioners to make people of other beliefs feel ashamed for having other belief.

*COUGH*Crusade*COUGH*

 

[TheIceface]

If you try to do more good than harm, then you're a good person in my book. Mother Teresa could have eaten the flesh off a live baby and I would still consider her to be a good person.

Anyways, I wasn't saying religions should be based on good deeds, all I was saying is that if a god didn't take them into account when determining somebody's ultimate fate because they did not belong to a certain religion, then that god can fuck right off.

Hmmm, but the problem is, in many religions your "good deeds" aren't "counted" when you die. Rather its about being repentant and accepting the fact that no matter how hard you try, you're not going to be perfect, close to perfect, or even a good person. There fore you have to rely on someone who is perfect (deity) to help you out.

 

[TheIceface]

Aetheism is the only religious belief system that actively encourages its practitioners to make people of other beliefs feel ashamed for having other belief.

*COUGH*Crusade*COUGH*

I'm not sure about the Muslim Crusades, but the roman crusades disagreed with the religion heavily. In fact, they were just to gain power an money and only did so under a religious premise so that less people would question them at the time.

 

[James Raynor]

Aetheism is the only religious belief system that actively encourages its practitioners to make people of other beliefs feel ashamed for having other belief.

*COUGH*Crusade*COUGH*

Atheism isn't a religion, just thought I'd clear that up.

I'm not sure about the Muslim Crusades, but the roman crusades disagreed with the religion heavily. In fact, they were just to gain power an money and only did so under a religious premise so that less people would question them at the time.

Roman's (If I remember correctly) basically had a religion based around "Cesar is god, if you don't think so you die".

 

[Sirisaxman]

edit: I should probably add that this is not a defense of Atheism, as it might look that way. I'm suggesting that if you want people to join your church you need to give them an experience that changes their underlying moral code, and not just expect true belief from something as fickle as conscious thought.

"Fickle as conscious thought?" Boss, it's the so-called "experiences" that lead people to believe all kinds of loopy garbage. Experience is what drives us, but we're wired with really active imaginations, so lots of times we think we experience things that haven't actually happened. Analysis and thoughtfulness are the only things that keep us from sacrificing our children to UFO monsters every day. If anything, belief needs to be strictly evaluated mentally, not left to the whims of imagination and how good you felt at the Christmas Mass.

I was raised a screaming Evangelical and converted to Catholicism in college, and every decision I made about leaving/joining both was made entirely on the basis of "feelings" and "experiences." And you know what? The second I stood back and analyzed them against hard facts about the real world, I became a passive liberal atheist.

I'm all in favor of riding on experience. But if you're going to debate something as enormous as the existence of the divine, you need hard facts and evidence. You can't subjugate yourself to ideology entirely on the basis of feelings. That's how terrorists and virulent racists get converted to crazy.

That's the thing about FAITH, though. Faith is about believing WITHOUT hard facts or evidence. It's the main reason Science and Religion often come into conflict. I'm personally not religious, but I wouldn't consider myself an Atheist. I believe every religion has it partially correct and therefore take my beliefs from different religions.

 

[Graustein]

Aetheism is the only religious belief system that actively encourages its practitioners to make people of other beliefs feel ashamed for having other belief.

Atheism isn't a religious belief system. It's a lack of belief in God. Nothing more or less. There is no central authority to Atheism, saying "go ye and convert the ununbelievers!". There are atheists who do that, but there's also Christians (and folks of other religions) who go door-to-door to convert people. Not to mention missionaries.