Civil War

[Fox12]

Having seen Civil War and Batman v Superman, I've had some time to ruminate over both films.

While neither film was necessarily bad, I don't think either managed to be great either. Civil War was probably the stronger of the two, since it was more clear in its direction, but I found that both suffered from a serious flaw: the motivations of some of the characters simply didn't make sense.

In BvS it was Lex Luthor. While he would occasionally spout of pseudo-intellectual nonsense about God and Satan, he never had a real concrete motivation for hating superman. Certainly not to the point where he would blow up the congress, kill innocent people. risk his life and career, and possibly destroy his company. Other complaints aside, it was probably THE flaw that held the movie down.

Unfortunately, to my disappointment, the same is true for Captain America. His motivations were that he wanted to save his friend bucky, and that he apparently wanted to do anything he wants with zero oversight from anybody. He promptly shows us why this is a bad idea by helping a terrorist out of prison and getting in a fight with another vigilante who has the same mindset. To make matters worse, Stark even offers to get bucky the mental help he needs while he goes through the legal process, and to help Captain America out of the legal position he's in. Captain America refuses. And, when he's confronted on this issue earlier in the movie, he basically gives us this speech:

Spoiler

This makes him come across as either incredibly selfish and narcissistic, or as a total psychopath. That said, while it paints him as a very unsympathetic character, I can sort of buy his motivations. I can understand putting your own feelings and family above the welfare of the general public, or thinking that you're right, so that you should be able to call all the shots. I don't agree with it, but I can buy it as a motivation. What I don't understand is how (or why) he roped so many other people into it. Ant Man shows up and commits treason for absolutely no reason, even though it could ruin his relationship with his family. Hawkeye comes out of retirement to help commit treason for no real reason, even though it could ruin his relationship with his family. Scarlett Witch leaves her house to go commit treason, even though she's under temporary house arrest, because she can't stand to wait a few weeks for things to get sorted out. Why are all of these people so committed to helping Captain America save.... bucky? Someone whose mentally unhealthy, and who is fully capable of killing innocent people? Even if his actions weren't entirely his fault, he's still a danger to the general public. Letting him run wild doesn't seem like a constructive course of action. Holding him in prison while getting him psychological help seems like a pretty fair minded solution. I get that the answer is because we need have a reason for why superheroes are fighting, but it doesn't feel like they tried very hard. And, at the end, bucky is frozen until they find a way to help him, which is pretty much what Stark wanted anyway.

All together, while I liked the movie, the motivations came across as pretty thin, especially when there were some pretty serious consequences. Everyone was asking whose side you were on, but from here it seems pretty one sided. Given that Iron Man wasn't behaving like a raging psychopath (despite being the alcoholic of the group) I'm not sure how anyone could side with Cap, even in the movie. There was no real motivation there. Thoughts?

 

[Johnny Novgorod]

I'm just tired of Marvel bluffing about how something of consequence is totally going to happen in their next movie.

 

[Scarim Coral]

The image in the spoiler is not working at the moment.

One of the things that bother me about Civil War (I haven't seen BvS) due to them not acknowledging the general public plea since it seen the root to the problem with the collateral damages is them not given a fuck after the dust has settle.

Since Cap was against the registation, why not make a public speech to the public to try to swayed their opinion or go to the United Nation itself to give his case against it?

Without that and for his reaction action, it certainly did painted him as simple going AWOL.

 

[Zontar]

Le Sign. Time to be the MCU Defence Force I guess.

how did Zemo find the Bucky tape or even knew to look for it?

Zemo explicitly stated near the movie's start that he got his info from the massive SHIELD/HYDRA file dump from Winter Soldier.

How did he know how built an EMP or a building destroying bomb?

He was a soldier who lead a special ops military unit in a science fiction setting. With that background in the MCU him building his own Arc Reactors and power armour is not only not unrealistic but has been done by others.

How did Zemo predict those events will actually work?

Same way any military planner does: he doesn't, but hopes his original plan works while making backups in case it fails. It's pretty clear that the last part of the story was a backup as something in his original plan failed.

Why does the police use a single photograph that's not even in focus to pinpoint Bucky?

Because it looks enough like him and he's already a wanted terrorist. Plus given the quality of real images the police use that was a pretty clean one.

Why no one realizes that Bucky had no way to leave Germany so he couldn't commit the bombing?

Because Germany and Austria are both Schengen Area nations and this was filmed before the migrant crisis (which probably didn't happen in the MCU) caused Austria to fence its border off, meaning there is effectively nothing stopping him from going from one to the other at will without being stopped.

Why didn't Vision destroy the jet?

Because that would have killed them and he doesn't kill people intentionally.

Why does no one acting in a sane way or wait some time before coming into huge decisions?

Because Bucky would be dead, Tony wouldn't get the before-last installation of his character arc and Black Panther wouldn't have been nearly a interesting.

The entire movie would be over if Cap just said to Stark, "hey I'm taking this GPS with me, after I'm done we can settle it out".

Tony had strict orders to capture him or the government would do it for him. Even if he wanted to help he's still need to make it look like he was brining him in.

 

[Saelune]

Trust. Faith in people you believe in. That's what many of the character's motivation was. Ant-Man was mostly just eager to hang with the cool kids (to counter Spider-Man doing the same) but he also has a whole movie showing he doesn't value law over good.

Also its scary how many people are like "How can you side with Cap"? One is essentially creative control. Do you really trust the Government or a big corporation to think of anything but the bottom line? Maybe an individual will be a bad person, or a good person, but its on them when they are in control of their own things. No beurocratic BS of 100 biases fighting for dominance.

The other is civil liberties. Imagine if the Avengers were under Government control back when slavery was legal and protected? Or even in the 50's during the civil rights movement, or the 60's and 70's when cops routinely raided gay bars?

What is right and what is law is not always the same. That's why Captain America fought this.

Another example, using the UN (which is who would get control in the movie), the Rwandan Genocide (I use this cause Don Cheadle is in Civil War as pro-signing, but also the main character in Hotel Rwanda), imagine the Avengers in Rwanda, but not allowed to actually help fight the bad guys. UN forces are never used effectively, and I cant imagine that would change for The Avengers. But sure, let Captain America, er I mean, Captain UN, standing around while innocent people get butchered.

 

[bartholen_v1legacy]

While Batman v Superman was the inferior of the two, at least it got me legitimately almost jumping in my seat at some points. But overall the film was such a mess and so completely nonsensical. Civil War, while perfectly adequate and even awesome in so many ways, just failed to engage or excite me. It was all completely in one ear, out the other, typical Marvel stuff. Stuff like Ant-Man and Guardians of the Galaxy can still sustain themselves due to being purposely offbeat and distanced from the main Marvel cast, but the main Avengers movies just feel so formulaic and inconsequential at this point. Yeah, Cap and Iron Man fight and stuff happens, but nothing really changes or shifts the balance of the world. The characters stay the same and are in no way of getting axed off or written out of the MCU, so there's little emotional weight to anything that happens. And due to the cast being so fucking huge at this point, the plot points that had potential engagement (Iron Man's parents, Wanda's uncertainty, T'Challa losing his father) are spread so thin and given so little time I just couldn't get invested.

 

[Dazzle Novak]

The Sokovia Accord plot ought to have been cut altogether.

All the Sokovia Accord does is muddle the story while promising a clash of political ideologies that never comes to fruition. Cap defending Bucky because Bucky's being framed, or because no agency wants to bring him in alive (and eventually because more Winter Soldiers exist), is enough of a through line to get the plot from beginning to end. Every character has a motivation for picking their side irrespective of their stance on accountability and government oversight, so what point was there to all the bland, shot/reverse shot gum-flapping hashing out the same talking point ad nauseum? The first half of the movie drags because it's centered around an argument that's superficial only to ultimately turn out to be a red herring.

Worse, the debate tarnishes all parties involved.

Cap could have easily brought up the fact Tony was the one who created the Ultron crisis in the first place, all while glibly declaring himself to be a "mad scientist" (seriously, Tony ought to have been Underwater Guantanamo's first "guest"), and that the last agency the Avengers worked under turned out to be top-to-bottom lousy with literal Nazis. Likewise, even disregarding his culpability in the existence of the Hulk, that prick General Ross couldn't offer to lead me to Scarlett Johansson, naked on a waterbed and begging for my touch, without me walking in the opposite direction out of spite. He's an imperfect vessel in a narrative sense priming most toward a visceral reaction against the Accord and Tony's argument by proxy.

On the other side, Cap comes off as self-righteous scoffing at the very notion that, hey, countries may not find his "I'm following my heart" ethos sufficient justification for his constant law-flouting and the Avengers essentially being a PMC playing world-police. Being pro-Cap is premised on a contrived 24 scenario where the opposing side never listens, and even if they did one would never cut through the bureaucratic red tape in time to stop the ticking bomb from exploding and killing millions.

 

[Zontar]

1. But then how didn't Stark know about it? Stark employs some of the smartes people in the world who can dechyper it and actively fought Hydra, he couldn't just type 'grep Stark' into the database and see what came up? (especially if he looked for moles inside Stark industries), and why Zemo didn't just use that file instead of a convoluted plan to find a tape that might have ended up not working? And besides finding this crucial piece of data inside a huge data base he would also needed to find that Bucky is The Winter Soldier and knew their connection which quite likely not common knowledge in east Russia.

The Winter Soldier's identity was common knowlage world wide given his being a wanted terrorist after the events of Winter Soldier. Zemo likely knew who he was before he even had a reason to care.

The reason Tony didn't know was because he likely didn't care. He'd already stolen SHIELD intel and showed no interest in the literal pentabytes of information leaked. Hell even if he did want to look through it all having a few hundred people wouldn't have him find the relevant information for years, and he didn't know his parents where assassinated so he wouldn't have specifically sought it out. Zemo, on the other hand, was looking for exactly that, which makes finding information much easier and quicker. Even then it still took him the better part of a year to do so anyway.

2. I don't remember that, but even with this knowledge, unless he has a scientific master in this field (AND encryption, since those 2 are completely seperate) those kinds of things are not something you could build in your warehouse by yourself or even order the parts without raising hell, and how did he pay for them?

Given he's from corrupt Sokovia, he probably got the equipment straight from the source and the only real problem he had was smuggling it to the right places.

3. But the plan hinged on Bucky never just surrendering which is a pretty stupid thing to do and on Stark following Cap.

How so? If Bucky surrendered then he could do exactly what he did in the movie anyway. His surrendering just means that the part between Bucky's apartment scene and his escape from captivity scene wouldn't happen.

4. I was under the impression that Hydra was annihilated so the question comes to who employed Bucky and why they didn't say it (especially as Hydra was outed already and they seemed the kind to like to announce their presence), plus the question of motive, why an organization be against something that weakens the Avengers?

Bucky was a wanted man on the run, he isn't affiliated with anything ever since the end of Winter Soldier. He's just taking the blame for Zemo's actions because he's being framed for it. HYDRA also isn't dead, the world is well aware they're still around due to other covert activity they've been doing that has been exposed (and they actually do prefer to remain hidden). HYDRA wasn't annihilated, they just cut off another head. They've been the primary antagonists of AoS for the past 2 seasons, and even if they do finally kill it off I just know Viper/Madam Hydra will reform the organization.

5. Wasn't the particular UN building in the USA? Also how did Zemo know that Bucky was in Austria anyways?

It was in Austria, and it didn't matter where Bucky was (Zemo probably didn't even know where he was) all that mattered was that he was a wanted man who he could frame and use against the Avengers. After all being anywhere in the world doesn't really excuse one from being the perpetrator of a crime given how easy it is for enhanced people to get around.

6. I meant before Cap boarded it, he only exploded the tower which had GREATER chance of killing Cap and friends, couldn't he also just phase to the engine and disable it?

He'd have to catch up first, which would require him to be faster then the jet. That doesn't seem to be the case given what we see on screen.

7. But it's still bad writing.

Well you can't win them all.

8. He could just lie and said that Cap beat him.

You mean exactly what he did before he learned the truth about his parents?

 

[Zontar]

1. Considering he was a world war 2 american hero And a soviet agent the chance of that information being public is absolutely nill, and even then I don't think the knowledge of Cap having any sort of bond with him beyond commaderie is available anywhere, also how did Zemo knew what was he looking for? And you seriously tell me Stark wouldn't check any mention of him by Hydra, and organization he is in war with? Plus he has pretty much unlimited resources for sifting through the information

A British reporter referred to Buckey as "the infamous Winter Soldier" and a "wanted terrorist". Given how his identity as the Winter Soldier was known (likely due to the events of Winter Soldier) and his relation with Cap never having been a secret, it's pretty obvious that Zemo would figure out how to use them.

Also, why would Tony care about looking through some non-tech related files? He had no personal beef with HYDRA, and he was more interested in finding their current outposts that where not on any of those files.

2. It's a pretty lazy explanation "the EMP and several kiloton bomb was just there by the counter" and even then he'd need ability to program it, arm it and trigger it.

Making the explosive is the hardest part. Compared to that arming and triggering it is nothing. Plus this is the MCU we're talking about, everyone has +3 intelligence compared to normal humans when it comes to dealing with tech then we do in real life.

3. I meant in the prior to the big fight, Bucky would have surrendered instead of risking all his friends.

That didn't matter to Zemo. All he needed to do was get them fighting, and he had multiple contingencies. Even if they didn't have their big fight he could always just reveal the information he had to Tony and that would start a fight either way.

4. I'll give you that, though it's still very flimsy evidence to start a manhunt on, but a different question, didn't anyone look up who EMP'd the power supply? It seems they are only focused on Bucky but not his allies.

You assume they can't do both, but compare a normal human using an EMP to the Winter Soldier, there's one which takes precedent over the other.

5. But Zemo needed Bucky to be in Austria so he could trigger him, if he was caught in the USA then the entire "brainwash Bucky" plan wouldn't have happened.

He managed to take the place of an Austrian interrogator in a matter of hours, I don't think the same happening in the US would be that difficult for him given it's the same problems only with an easy flight on top of that. If he can accomplish the hardest part I don't think an easier addition would be that much of a problem.

6. But it was in a moment Cap and Bucky ran to the jet and afterwards took several minutes getting out of the rubble AND THEN more minutes talking with Black Widow, Vision could have walked there and still reach before they took off.

He was probably fighting with Scarlet Witch given how she was no longer holding the rubble up and she's the only one on the team more powerful then he is. It's not like she was fighting Spider-Man, and everyone else was accounted for during that time.

8. Yeah, but he only did it after seeing that people he sent to jail are *gasp* in jail.

That wasn't what he expected though, since they where not just in jail but super-jail. Plus he probably expected another slap on the wrist and having the book thrown at them.

Also, I think you skipped 7.

9. Also another one, why was Ant-Man with Cap? His entire motivation in the movie is being with his daughter, becoming a convict who is wanted in the entire WORLD runs counter to that, and he doesn't know the Avengers enough to want to meddle with their inner politics, Spider Man atleast was bribed (both in movie and Meta-wise) into appearing.

The story of Ant-Man made it clear he will do what's right even if it isn't legal. There's only one thing more important to him then seeing his daughter, and that's protecting his daughter. His daughter knows he's doing the right thing, he knows he's doing the right thing, and with the suit the restrictions of being wanted aren't a major issue. Being a Secret Avenger isn't that out of character for him.

 

[Sniper Team 4]

Trust. Faith in people you believe in. That's what many of the character's motivation was. Ant-Man was mostly just eager to hang with the cool kids (to counter Spider-Man doing the same) but he also has a whole movie showing he doesn't value law over good.

Also its scary how many people are like "How can you side with Cap"? One is essentially creative control. Do you really trust the Government or a big corporation to think of anything but the bottom line? Maybe an individual will be a bad person, or a good person, but its on them when they are in control of their own things. No beurocratic BS of 100 biases fighting for dominance.

The other is civil liberties. Imagine if the Avengers were under Government control back when slavery was legal and protected? Or even in the 50's during the civil rights movement, or the 60's and 70's when cops routinely raided gay bars?

What is right and what is law is not always the same. That's why Captain America fought this.

Another example, using the UN (which is who would get control in the movie), the Rwandan Genocide (I use this cause Don Cheadle is in Civil War as pro-signing, but also the main character in Hotel Rwanda), imagine the Avengers in Rwanda, but not allowed to actually help fight the bad guys. UN forces are never used effectively, and I cant imagine that would change for The Avengers. But sure, let Captain America, er I mean, Captain UN, standing around while innocent people get butchered.

You seem to be the only person that gets this. I've had to point it out to a few of my friends by saying, "So what happens when the UN wants the Avengers to invade a country for their oil, but it's done as "a peace-keeping movement" that everyone knows is BS? Or worse, what happens when a country needs help, or a super villain is hiding out in one, and the UN refuses to let the Avengers go in because they have a grudge against that country?"
It's the same thing as what happened with Superman in The Dark Knight Returns comic. Superman now answers to the U.S. government. And yet, I don't see anyone saying that Batman was in the wrong there because of course he's right, he's Batman.

 

[Comic Sans]

Trust. Faith in people you believe in. That's what many of the character's motivation was. Ant-Man was mostly just eager to hang with the cool kids (to counter Spider-Man doing the same) but he also has a whole movie showing he doesn't value law over good.

Also its scary how many people are like "How can you side with Cap"? One is essentially creative control. Do you really trust the Government or a big corporation to think of anything but the bottom line? Maybe an individual will be a bad person, or a good person, but its on them when they are in control of their own things. No beurocratic BS of 100 biases fighting for dominance.

The other is civil liberties. Imagine if the Avengers were under Government control back when slavery was legal and protected? Or even in the 50's during the civil rights movement, or the 60's and 70's when cops routinely raided gay bars?

What is right and what is law is not always the same. That's why Captain America fought this.

Another example, using the UN (which is who would get control in the movie), the Rwandan Genocide (I use this cause Don Cheadle is in Civil War as pro-signing, but also the main character in Hotel Rwanda), imagine the Avengers in Rwanda, but not allowed to actually help fight the bad guys. UN forces are never used effectively, and I cant imagine that would change for The Avengers. But sure, let Captain America, er I mean, Captain UN, standing around while innocent people get butchered.

You seem to be the only person that gets this. I've had to point it out to a few of my friends by saying, "So what happens when the UN wants the Avengers to invade a country for their oil, but it's done as "a peace-keeping movement" that everyone knows is BS? Or worse, what happens when a country needs help, or a super villain is hiding out in one, and the UN refuses to let the Avengers go in because they have a grudge against that country?"
It's the same thing as what happened with Superman in The Dark Knight Returns comic. Superman now answers to the U.S. government. And yet, I don't see anyone saying that Batman was in the wrong there because of course he's right, he's Batman.

Hell, just in the last Captain America movie we learn that several facets of the government were directly controlled by Hydra, a terrorist organization that used the resources available to manipulate world events as they wanted. Imagine if Hydra hasn't done it's coup in The Winter Solider at this point. The Sokovia Accords would give Hydra the ability to control the Avengers. Combine that with the situations you presented and it becomes more clear why putting the most powerful people on earth in the hands of potentially corrupt governments isn't necessarily a good idea. The Avengers need some sort of accountability but that's possibly going too far.

 

[Fox12]

Trust. Faith in people you believe in. That's what many of the character's motivation was. Ant-Man was mostly just eager to hang with the cool kids (to counter Spider-Man doing the same) but he also has a whole movie showing he doesn't value law over good.

Also its scary how many people are like "How can you side with Cap"? One is essentially creative control. Do you really trust the Government or a big corporation to think of anything but the bottom line? Maybe an individual will be a bad person, or a good person, but its on them when they are in control of their own things. No beurocratic BS of 100 biases fighting for dominance.

The other is civil liberties. Imagine if the Avengers were under Government control back when slavery was legal and protected? Or even in the 50's during the civil rights movement, or the 60's and 70's when cops routinely raided gay bars?

What is right and what is law is not always the same. That's why Captain America fought this.

Another example, using the UN (which is who would get control in the movie), the Rwandan Genocide (I use this cause Don Cheadle is in Civil War as pro-signing, but also the main character in Hotel Rwanda), imagine the Avengers in Rwanda, but not allowed to actually help fight the bad guys. UN forces are never used effectively, and I cant imagine that would change for The Avengers. But sure, let Captain America, er I mean, Captain UN, standing around while innocent people get butchered.

You seem to be the only person that gets this. I've had to point it out to a few of my friends by saying, "So what happens when the UN wants the Avengers to invade a country for their oil, but it's done as "a peace-keeping movement" that everyone knows is BS? Or worse, what happens when a country needs help, or a super villain is hiding out in one, and the UN refuses to let the Avengers go in because they have a grudge against that country?"
It's the same thing as what happened with Superman in The Dark Knight Returns comic. Superman now answers to the U.S. government. And yet, I don't see anyone saying that Batman was in the wrong there because of course he's right, he's Batman.

I don't get this argument at all. The best option is really to have a handful of super powered people who can conduct military operations in any country in the world, with zero oversight, and no way to sanction them if they commit a war crime? How on earth does that make any sort of sense? We're supposed to just have faith that no one will abuse their power? And why on earth should a handful of people get to wield overwhelming power, and make unilateral decisions for other countries? Why do they get to decide what's best for everyone else?

It's the same reason that the civil liberties argument doesn't work. Captain America doesn't represent liberty in this movie. If anything he represents western imperialism and government overreach. He's not answering to the will of the people, after all. He's going rogue because he doesn't want his friend to be sent to prison after he tried to overthrow every democracy on the planet. Even if he wasn't in control of his actions, the simple fact is that he needs help, and that he can't be allowed to roam freely in public.

 

[Glongpre]

Captain America doesn't believe in the accord because it may prevent him from saving someone.

Iron Man wants the accord because he believes it will help save someone from being collateral damage.

Motivations were cut and dry.

It's like people don't listen.

Also, I figure the fact that all of those good hearted avengers were stuck in an underwater supermax prison would be enough to justify Cap's thoughts.

Cap is in the right the whole way.

 

[Super Cyborg]

I'm just tired of Marvel bluffing about how something of consequence is totally going to happen in their next movie.

This is my main gripe with the movie. Action was great, overall liked the motivations, character balancing was good, great execution with the plot and all that. The problem is, especially after watching a second time, it really doesn't feel like anything of consequence happened. The things that felt like were going to be consequences they suddenly went "nope, it's all a okay, things will be good".

 

[Souplex]

I was with it till the final conflict.

Spoiler: Final climax spoiler

It is revealed that Bucky killed Tony's parents while under mind control. As a result, Iron Man tries to kill him.
If Steve had stopped and said "Bucky's just as much a victim of Hydra as your parents." I would have been fine, even if Tony declared that he didn't care.
The fact that his lack of responsibility for his actions wasn't once acknowledged in that fight made it feel forced. Up until that fight, everyone had explained their reasoning for their decisions, and nobody felt stupid.

 

[Fox12]

Captain America doesn't believe in the accord because it may prevent him from saving someone.

Like the 12 people he got killed? Or the people who died as a result of Ultron? Or the people who could potentially die if bucky were to run into any hydra agents, who we know are still out there? If Captain America was so concerned about saving people, then why was he putting so many people in danger to save his friend?

Motivations were cut and dry.

It's like people don't listen.

Not really. Even if it makes sense for Captain America to put his friend before the welfare of his friends and nation, why on earth would Ant Man or Hawkeye care? And in what world is it reasonable for Scarlett Witch to freak out for being put under house arrest? They didn't put her there because they were scared of her, they put her there because she was under investigation for war crimes in another country. After previously helping Ultron. If she had simply been patient the whole thing would have blown over.

Also, I figure the fact that all of those good hearted avengers were stuck in an underwater supermax prison would be enough to justify Cap's thoughts.

Cap is in the right the whole way.

The good hearted avengers who helped a wanted terrorist escape from prison? After he tried to overthrow the government? While he was under suspicion of killing a political leader? After Stark promised to get him psychological aid for his condition? That tends to happen.