CNN RapeLay Controversy Sparks Angry Response

[benbenthegamerman]

I usually watch CNN, and if they are gonaa keep my viewership, they will appologize.

 

[Mad World]

I can't believe that someone would develop such a sick and idiotic game.

 

[Addendum_Forthcoming]

Woot! Now I can make my game about 5 yr. olds on school-shooting rampages with graphic images of incest with his sister, who is 12 years his senior.

If anybody complains, I'll say that the rates of paedo-freaks molesting kids, school shootings and cases of incest are lower here then in the rest of the Western world!

Bad taste is bad taste...

I'm just waiting for their next game ... "Unit 731 and Friends".

 

[Crimsonsniper]

"As Japan has no laws against such content, the furor over the game came solely from Western groups."-Bullshit, I'm sure that there are quite a few Eastern countries and groups who also disapprove of this game, it's not simply a western cultural misunderstanding. I don't believe this article was written in a non-biased manner. They cited the words of Nogami as a source of information that took up half the written article, and they didn't include either statistics, list of organizations, or additional detail of the game (I wonder how much of the gameplay was left out of its description). CNN is hardly a great news source, but this Nogami guy sounds like a scumbag regardless, and the article writer a moron.

PS: Now watch all the idiots start to support Nogami simply because they hate CNN and hes opposing them. Great choice of rolemodel kiddies, way to put it to the man to fight for what you believe is right.

 

[boholikeu]

It really is disheartening to see so many Escapists complaining about CNN when the letter isn't all that much better. CNN was definitely wrong to sensationalize this 3 year old issue, but that doesn't mean we should automatically exalt anyone that takes up the banner against them.

Japan has far lower rates of violent crime and rape than the US, a fact Nogami capitalized on in his response."As this objection had to be put together promptly, precise data will be presented later, but it is a fact that in this 21st century, we Japanese enjoy one of the most safe and peaceful societies on Earth. Naturally, that is not to say that our society is without problems, but to be honest, I frankly do not think that you are the ones to tell us," Nogami said.

Best reply ever!

If only the letter ended on that note, instead of going on to misrepresent Japan just as poorly as the CNN coverage.

That CNN follow up article isn't that far from the mark though. Japan does pretty much oppress its women, and has a weird way of sexualizing little girls even in otherwise innocent genres.

Exactly. While the CNN article was definitely sensationalist, nothing the expert said was particularly biased or incorrect. I can't really say the same for some of the things Nogami said though...

 

[Michael Dagastino]

Im glad he brought that up. I hate how now if someone is offended, they act like it is the next plague to hit the earth and try to cleans us of it (in the west, for i am american, and that is the life i know of). Remember those people in school who did something wrong, and screwed everything up for everyone in the class? That is what these people are like, ruining something for everyone else.

 

[The Buck Stops Here]

Who gives a flying fuck? If it's not infringing on your rights, and the game makers or the game is not intentionally assaulting or harming you, grow some skin and ignore it. Sure, it's in bad taste, but you can say that for the thousands of shock sites like two girls one cup or goat se that exist on the internet right now. this entire incident is a non-issue that deserves no attention whatsoever, because it's sensationalist bullshit.

 

[Gindil]

I can pull up the beating of Rodney King as an example of US police. Now that's not entirely fair since it was just one incident, but that's essentially what you're doing there to prove your point.

Not really. That's entirely off topic to Japan and my point. Which is more about some of the treatment there than a guy being beaten by police for being high on PCP.

Now, granted my remembrance of everything in the Japanese criminal system is faulty. I don't care where you go [http://www.courts.go.jp/english/proceedings/criminal_justice_index.html] but the lawyers are still overpaid A-holes. Expert witnesses can be asked the same question over and over and not worry about being badgered. Subtle differences in law, namely the "Guilty before Innocent" ideal change the court drastically towards the favor of a prosecutor. And given the closeness I've had with Japanese society, I doubt that they're highly effective, just corrupt as all hell. When I say corrupt, I mean that they don't have to work as hard to prove their case as someone in the US does.

Hang on, something doesn't add up. If the justice system in Japan favours the prosecution, doesn't that mean that rapists have a higher chance of getting prosecuted? Wouldn't that imply that the number of rape cases in the Original Article are over-reported rather than under-reported?

It's the culture of Japan that is at odds with the justice rendered. If you go to court, you're guilty. Period. But, women are taught to be obedient in various forms. I haven't heard of a problem with rape or anything like that, but then again, when I was there, I didn't go looking for those problems.

What this means is that the chances of you proving your innocence in the Japanese system are far worse than in the US. You may be able to clear your name within the US. In Japan, it's similar to a death sentence. And if you stand falsely accused, it can really REALLY F___ up your life.

 

[Therumancer]

They. Got. Served.

Now, that's a defense. Bringing hard crime rate facts into the mix.

Actually it's not as solid defense as you might think.

The US's crime rate is largely a side effect of our level of freedom. A lot of nations have lower crime rates but also do it by being a lot more proactive and restricting what their citizens and do, say, and think a lot more. Putting a lot of social deterrants into effect. A lot of nations like to say "we're as free as the US but do so without as many problems" but most are lying if you examine them.

A connected issue is of course cultural. The US is a cultural melting pot. Most other nations might claim that this is the case and point out that they have minorities, and even some in the goverment, but in reality you see situations where they tend to be far more mono-ethnic. You can for example walk into your average mall in the US and see people of a dozen differant ethnicities without trying. Walk into a mall in say Japan and pretty much everyone is going to be Japanese, and you are likely to have to really look to find someone who isn't. With this of course comes a shared sense of identity and culture that doesn't nessicarly apply to the US as a whole.

In the US we have big issues with simple things like having a national language, as well as the intent of citizens where you have people coming to the US for the benefits but not adapting to the culture at all. This means that they keep a lot of their initial sentiments and defend them under our standards of freedom. This means that you have conflicts in the US (based on cultural, ethnic, religious lines) playing out in the US that don't exist elsewhere. Pretty much every conflict on the globe plays out in the US in minature.

The bottom line is that the US is pretty much unique in what it is, despite what others might claim at times.

You also have to consider that some relatively civilized nations by US standards not only employ things like blanket warrents and such (ie far less in the way of search and seizure rights) but also have truely terrifying prison systems both of which keep the population in line (ie less legal room to manuver when caught by the police, to try and play the "game" and beat the "system", combined with a system where punishment is a much bigger deterrant). You bring up issues like our prisons being harder on criminals, or saying that we should have warrent powers in the hands of law enforcement like Canada does (or did when I took Criminal Justice) and people freak out here and will say there is no coorespondance between such things and a lower crime rate.

I guess the point is that this "point" is complete trash. CNN could argue the point but it would get way off topic. Plus it wouldn't work with CNN's politics as it would sort of mean contridicting what it's said in some of it's coverage of US law enforcement and crime. Either that or it could be turned around and be painted as CNN picking on The Japanese civil liberties.

The bottom line is that it can be argued that on some levels tighter laws can result in more freedom in certain areas, because of the massive punkhammer that can be brought to bear when someone steps over that line. Follow what is likely to happen to a Japanese rapist who did things like in the game, and what is likely to happen to an American one who lost touch with reality.

On the other hand though part of the entire point of the US is that our crime rate and such is the price we pay for our freedom (nothing is free) and arguably part of that freedom should be any adult being able to create or obtain any kind of media they want, including rape games if that floats their boat. That's what freedom is all about.

To me the entire situation is cut and dry. I was a victim of homosexual rape when I was six. However, despite my overall opinion on such things, I do not believe depictions of rape or criminal behavior should be banned. In part because I feel once you open that door it's going to rapidly snowball, once you make it so the media can't touch one crime, it's liable to expand to include others, and then expand from crimes to immoral behavior. Then our freedom of speech and expression is dead.

Or simply put, when you see either sex (even rape) or violence banned or routinely regulated in the media, the other is not going to be far behind. From there it's going to move on to other things.

Ah well, enough rambling. The bottom line is that I don't think the Japanese are making a good point at all as much as I wish they had one to hammer our goverment with on this subject.

 

[reciprocal]

They. Got. Served.

Now, that's a defense. Bringing hard crime rate facts into the mix.

Actually it's not as solid defense as you might think.

The US's crime rate is largely a side effect of our level of freedom. A lot of nations have lower crime rates but also do it by being a lot more proactive and restricting what their citizens and do, say, and think a lot more. Putting a lot of social deterrants into effect. A lot of nations like to say "we're as free as the US but do so without as many problems" but most are lying if you examine them.

A connected issue is of course cultural. The US is a cultural melting pot. Most other nations might claim that this is the case and point out that they have minorities, and even some in the goverment, but in reality you see situations where they tend to be far more mono-ethnic. You can for example walk into your average mall in the US and see people of a dozen differant ethnicities without trying. Walk into a mall in say Japan and pretty much everyone is going to be Japanese, and you are likely to have to really look to find someone who isn't. With this of course comes a shared sense of identity and culture that doesn't nessicarly apply to the US as a whole.

In the US we have big issues with simple things like having a national language, as well as the intent of citizens where you have people coming to the US for the benefits but not adapting to the culture at all. This means that they keep a lot of their initial sentiments and defend them under our standards of freedom. This means that you have conflicts in the US (based on cultural, ethnic, religious lines) playing out in the US that don't exist elsewhere. Pretty much every conflict on the globe plays out in the US in minature.

The bottom line is that the US is pretty much unique in what it is, despite what others might claim at times.

You also have to consider that some relatively civilized nations by US standards not only employ things like blanket warrents and such (ie far less in the way of search and seizure rights) but also have truely terrifying prison systems both of which keep the population in line (ie less legal room to manuver when caught by the police, to try and play the "game" and beat the "system", combined with a system where punishment is a much bigger deterrant). You bring up issues like our prisons being harder on criminals, or saying that we should have warrent powers in the hands of law enforcement like Canada does (or did when I took Criminal Justice) and people freak out here and will say there is no coorespondance between such things and a lower crime rate.

I guess the point is that this "point" is complete trash. CNN could argue the point but it would get way off topic. Plus it wouldn't work with CNN's politics as it would sort of mean contridicting what it's said in some of it's coverage of US law enforcement and crime. Either that or it could be turned around and be painted as CNN picking on The Japanese civil liberties.

The bottom line is that it can be argued that on some levels tighter laws can result in more freedom in certain areas, because of the massive punkhammer that can be brought to bear when someone steps over that line. Follow what is likely to happen to a Japanese rapist who did things like in the game, and what is likely to happen to an American one who lost touch with reality.

On the other hand though part of the entire point of the US is that our crime rate and such is the price we pay for our freedom (nothing is free) and arguably part of that freedom should be any adult being able to create or obtain any kind of media they want, including rape games if that floats their boat. That's what freedom is all about.

To me the entire situation is cut and dry. I was a victim of homosexual rape when I was six. However, despite my overall opinion on such things, I do not believe depictions of rape or criminal behavior should be banned. In part because I feel once you open that door it's going to rapidly snowball, once you make it so the media can't touch one crime, it's liable to expand to include others, and then expand from crimes to immoral behavior. Then our freedom of speech and expression is dead.

Or simply put, when you see either sex (even rape) or violence banned or routinely regulated in the media, the other is not going to be far behind. From there it's going to move on to other things.

Ah well, enough rambling. The bottom line is that I don't think the Japanese are making a good point at all as much as I wish they had one to hammer our goverment with on this subject.

Good points. However if they weren't to bring the numbers into play how else could the Japanese representatives have defended themselves?

The American / British / Australian offensive against the hentai industry both in Japan and outside is based purely on their perceived notion of a higher moral ground but is not supported with any facts or studies. It is in fact based purely on 'faith'. Some politicians are willing to sacrifice the freedom on the basis of this 'faith'.

How is this fair and how can the representatives from the hentai industry or its' consumers counter this unproven allegation? It's not like they are giving a choice whether we want to buy hentai or not, but instead place an outright ban irregardless of age. Even reading the CNN article, which correctly identifies that the problem is the mass distribution of Rapelay does little to offer any alternatives asides from banning Japanese companies from making these games.

I'll accept Gindil's statement that Japan has some pretty draconian laws on its citizens and has some very rigid social structures. Nevertheless there is little or no regulation on hentai and the original article in question refers to rape statistics as proof that this has not eroded society, which I believe is valid even with an acceptable margin of error between the statistics.

 

[Therumancer]

Good points. However if they weren't to bring the numbers into play how else could the Japanese representatives have defended themselves?

The American / British / Australian offensive against the hentai industry both in Japan and outside is based purely on their perceived notion of a higher moral ground but is not supported with any facts or studies. It is in fact based purely on 'faith'. Some politicians are willing to sacrifice the freedom on the basis of this 'faith'.

How is this fair and how can the representatives from the hentai industry or its' consumers counter this unproven allegation? It's not like they are giving a choice whether we want to buy hentai or not, but instead place an outright ban irregardless of age. Even reading the CNN article, which correctly identifies that the problem is the mass distribution of Rapelay does little to offer any alternatives asides from banning Japanese companies from making these games.

I'll accept Gindil's statement that Japan has some pretty draconian laws on its citizens and has some very rigid social structures. Nevertheless there is little or no regulation on hentai and the original article in question refers to rape statistics as proof that this has not eroded society, which I believe is valid even with an acceptable margin of error between the statistics.[/quote]

Well, the anti-porn crowd does have a MORAL high ground on a lot of levels. There is no denying that. According to conventional morality that are entirely correct (we could argue about the definition of morality and whether they can truely be such a thing, but that would get well off subject).

The thing is that at least in the US there is supposed to be a complete freedom of speech and expression. What this means is that people have the right to say immoral things, and distribute immoral media. The US being set up specifically to not practice conventional morality.

One can raise a lot of interesting questions about "the greater good" and the morality of freedom of speech/expresssion/media/art against that of moral censorship/moral guardianship by the authorities (or even independant members of society). If you've taken Ethics such analysis is what the classes are all about (as opposed to teaching people what is moral and/or ethical, it's an analysis of systems of thought).

The thing is though that the US long ago decided that OUR standards will be freedom of expression, with no goverment or individual being able to censor another. Whether a specific individual or group agrees that this is the greater good or not, that is what the US decided and how we do things, thus any arguements are irrelevent.

Really, this isn't so much about Japan, but about us, and the rights we have here in the US. Even if Japan could defend itself, it's ultimatly irrelevent. The bottom line is that in the US someone has the right to create and distribute pretty much anything. "wrong" by our standards is when someone takes a sex game or whatever, points a finger at it and says "you can have freedom to say or produce anything, EXCEPT for that" once you make exceptions our freedom falls apart.


In the US the biggest threat to our freedom of speech that is in law is the requirement that media has to have some "redeeming value" otherwise it can be declared pornography and banned (please note legally pornography means something very specific, it has nothing to do with sex). I've long felt that this needs to be repealed as it's arguably the springboard censors are using to justify going after things like video games, movies, and TV shows. However, to my knowlege "Rapelay" has seen little in the way of legal action involving it. If someone DID declare it to have no redeeming value, the creators can still choose to defend it (prove that it does) and have that ruling overturned... I have yet to hear about any such battles. What's more trying to ban "Hentai" in general is still illegal in the US since each specific item would have to be reviewed seperatly, and lead to a seperate battle should the creators choose to contest a ban.

At any rate, I'm rambling. The major point here is that this is about the US, not about Japan. Japan can't defend a lot of the stuff it produces, because a lot of it is pretty sick (if entertaining). Things like their crime rate and the like is totally irrelevent to the discussion because their society is differant. This is entirely about freedom of speech in the US and the goverment's right to act as "moral guardians" and decide what media the US citizens can and cannot consume, which is supposed to be prohibited.

-

As far as the rate of rape and such goes, that goes along with other crimes. The bottom line is that in the US if there is a rape, the perpetrator has tons of legal red tape between him and a conviction. He has to be "discovered" through a chain of evidence and observation which might not even make sense, and has tons of defenses/pleas/etc... he can use, assuming of course someone doesn't blow the paperwork along the way. We tend to hear about successful convictions, but far less about all the ones that "got away" because of the way our legal system works. This is one of the reasons why things like private sex offender lists (including people who were merely accused as opposed to conviceted) are a big deal. The bottom line is that especially for those with the means to hire good lawyers and such a bit of "Sport" or slipping a date some rape drugs (Roofies or whatever) can be done fairly casually. The "victim" might wind up being trashed just as badly as the assailant by the time even a victorious trial is finished, especially seeing as trials being open to the public (with all the nasty details) is a cornerstone of our system.

I'm no expert on the Japanese legal system, but I've learned a little about it. Compared to the US this is pretty much Law Enforcement if it was to be run by Larry The Cable Guy (ie Get Ir Done). Simply put in the US we'd rather have the guilty go free, rather than see an innocent go to jail, and make assumptions like "innocent until proven guilty". As far as I have read, Japan does not take things to those extremes. A lot of the same things can happen but basically if they catch a rapist he has a LOT less options. Oh sure the rich can still buy their way out of it (it's like that anywhere in the world) but things are a lot harder. What this means is that rapists are less likely to strike because they are more likely to be caught.

There is also a matter of degree of punishment. In the US we see the idea of the prison system to be to rehabilitate the prisoner. The prisoner's punishment is to be there, it's
not the prison's job to actually punish. In the US your typical guy is more worried about other inmates and what might happen (either anal rape, or just being routinely beaten up in a very paranoid enviroment) rather than the prison system itself or the guards. We have all kinds of rules about prisoners and how they have to be kept, which ironically are higher standards than the military has to meet in keeping/bunking our soldiers.

In comparison a nation like Japan doesn't coddle prisoners, and according to some people who I knew served overseas there (Navy) the Japanese prison system allegedly does not have to pay to maintain the inmates. Basically the expense of their food, bunking, toilet paper, etc... is to be covered by the family of the inmate. If you don't have family... well your out of luck. Of course I was hearing about this over 20 years ago.

The above being true or not, harsh prisons do act as a deterrant despite US politics. That combined with far less in the way of civil liberties means your going to see less "casual" rape despite the prescence of video games like "Rapelay".

 

[Gindil]

Dunno how old this is... [http://www.japantoday.com/category/lifestyle/view/victims-are-finally-learning-to-speak-out-against-japan%E2%80%99s-outdated-rape-laws] But just something else to keep in mind about Japan's culture on rape charges. Also, take into fact, this is an Australian near a Navy base, not Japanese nor American. So "cultural differences" are abound in this story.