Cognitive Dissonance

[Emergent]

Moderator Edit: Discussing piracy is fine. Saying you support it to that degree is not. Please do not discuss your support of piracy on the forums, as it's against the rules. Thanks!







This was found in the comments link (to the forums) of a video published by the Escapist titled "Piracy."




Escapist, please, rethink your policy on this, or at least refrain from ever sheltering your articles under the auspice of "journalism" or claiming an objective position on this issue.

 

[varulfic]

That certainly sounds bad, taken out of context like that. But I'm gonna give the mods the benefit of the doubt on this one, since I really have no idea what the post contained. I've seen topics on this forum tackle hard political topics, legalisation of drugs and prostitution etc, I very much doubt there's an "no positive opinions about piracy" rule.

 

[Leg End]

The post in unaltered form.

When DRM happens to be a problem for PC games, I've always advocated the 'paid piracy' approach. Buy a copy of the game legitimately(preferably a console port to send a bit of an economic message), but play a DRM-free pirate copy. Developers get their money, and I get a product worth playing.

I also support the use of pirating to demo games only if you actually uninstall the game if you don't like it right away, or if you pay developers if you do. I waited over two weeks to play a pirated copy of Assassin's Creed 2 because I liked the game but didn't have the money to buy it legit.

It does technically violate one of the unwritten rules, but he does have a point. He may be a pirate, but he's a pirate that doesn't act like a self-entitled dick. If anything, his form of "piracy" isn't that bad, and publishers should be taking note.

[sub]No I don't advocate Piracy, don't B& me. I'm just pointing out the points of his stance.[/sub]

 

[Leg End]

[sub]This post doesn't exist. The Escapist Behemoth will eat it soon.[/sub]

 

[StBishop]

The post in unaltered form.

When DRM happens to be a problem for PC games, I've always advocated the 'paid piracy' approach. Buy a copy of the game legitimately(preferably a console port to send a bit of an economic message), but play a DRM-free pirate copy. Developers get their money, and I get a product worth playing.

I also support the use of pirating to demo games only if you actually uninstall the game if you don't like it right away, or if you pay developers if you do. I waited over two weeks to play a pirated copy of Assassin's Creed 2 because I liked the game but didn't have the money to buy it legit.

It does technically violate one of the unwritten rules, but he does have a point. He may be a pirate, but he's a pirate that doesn't act like a self-entitled dick. If anything, his form of "piracy" isn't that bad, and publishers should be taking note.

[sub]No I don't advocate Piracy, don't B& me. I'm just pointing out the points of his stance.[/sub]

I can get behind the first point, if you've paied for the game then you have the right to play it. But as a general rule piracy should be avoided, don't add to the problem if you don't have to.

Also, OP I think you're confusing the forums with the articles.
The articles are a Journalists work, the forums are not.
The articles are edited before being published and I'm sure there are plenty of things that they have to keep an eye out for (Like, advocating illegal activity for example).
The forum guidelines apply to forum posts by members and really there's nothing wrong with having a rule that prohibits the support of piracy as it's a negative facet of the media (Games) that shouldn't be encouraged and the Escapist forums don't want to be associated with pirates or pirating.

 

[Emergent]

I would hope someone from the Escapist could give us a much clearer definition than the one posted in the Code of Conduct (there is no mention of piracy in the code of conduct, btw) of what we can, and cannot say, about piracy. In many posts the mods seem to have said you cannot speak about it at all, in others they say you can discuss it but not support, and in some other cases I've found they'll suspend one user for saying something about having pirated a game and won't suspend another user saying nearly the exact same thing precisely one post down.

It's a very confusing policy on what is, quite possibly, the most influential topic in the industry this website is ostentatiously about, and the users of that website have no clear message on what can, and can not, be said about it.

Yes, I do understand that there is mention of not supporting or discussing "illegal" activities in the code of conduct, but my understanding of existing laws is that most downloaders who are widely considered pirates are not actually doing anything illegal. Is there an official stance on this at the Escapist we should be aware of?

Is it okay to discuss piracy here, or only to condemn it?


EDIT: To StBishop: On ANY other journalism website removing dissenting opinions from comments on the articles (note articles on the escapist DO have a comments link) is considered poor ethical practice.

 

[Pandaman1911]

See, piracy is one of those things that just makes me chuckle, because in all honesty, it's just stealing. I don't have a problem with stealing, because hey, it's your time and your effort, you can put it into whatever you want, even if that includes breaking the law; just be prepared to face the consequences when you get caught. But nevertheless, no matter how you do it, why you do it, or when you do it, piracy is stealing games, plain and simple. Yes, the games might be set at unfair prices, and yes, they might come with absurd usage rules that you didn't know about when you bought the game, but it's still effing stealing. I like people who own up to that, and don't hide between the pretentious banner of "fighting DRM" and other nonsense. You're stealing because you don't want to pay for the game, end of story.

But... uh, on the actual topic being discussed... after looking at the context, and reading things... I don't know. I want to know what that mod was talking about, because I couldn't find a "No Piracy" bit in the rules even with the most liberal interpretation of them.

 

[Emergent]

Me either. Though could I please request we keep discussion here to enthusiastic amateur divining of mysteriously undocumented Escapist policies, and not piracy itself? The Extra Credits thread about the issue seems to be the safest place to post about the topic at the moment, if you're interested.

 

[Popido]

Its an unwritten rule to NOT talk about piracy or lolis as they threat normal peoples comfort zone.

You just have to take your unbiased discussion elsewhere.

 

[Emergent]

Discussing piracy is fine.

But then, in the same breath:

Please do not discuss your support of piracy on the forums, as it's against the rules.

?

(see thread title)

 

[StBishop]

I would hope someone from the Escapist could give us a much clearer definition than the one posted in the Code of Conduct (there is no mention of piracy in the code of conduct, btw) of what we can, and cannot say, about piracy. In many posts the mods seem to have said you cannot speak about it at all, in others they say you can discuss it but not support, and in some other cases I've found they'll suspend one user for saying something about having pirated a game and won't suspend another user saying nearly the exact same thing precisely one post down.

It's a very confusing policy on what is, quite possibly, the most influential topic in the industry this website is ostentatiously about, and the users of that website have no clear message on what can, and can not, be said about it.

Yes, I do understand that there is mention of not supporting or discussing "illegal" activities in the code of conduct, but my understanding of existing laws is that most downloaders who are widely considered pirates are not actually doing anything illegal. Is there an official stance on this at the Escapist we should be aware of?

Is it okay to discuss piracy here, or only to condemn it?


EDIT: To StBishop: On ANY other journalism website removing dissenting opinions from comments on the articles (note articles on the escapist DO have a comments link) is considered poor ethical practice.

The percieved inconsistencies in moderation could come down to the fact that our moderation is pretty heavily community driven. If a post isn't reported, it can often go unmoderated.

If a post if reported a lot, it will usually get moderated swiftly.

I don't know what the official rules are in regards to piracy, and if you get in trouble with the mods they will be happy to discuss any decisions they've made so long as you're polite.

As a general rule; don't condone it. Justify it, talk about pro's and con's, discuss why you "Hypothetically would" do it (ie. just say it's hypothetical if you want), and don't ask how to do pirate games or give advice to anyone asking.

Condemning it is fine as it's a pretty widely accepted view that piracy is negative and illegal (regardless of who's breaking the law and who's not the process is illegal).

 

[Emergent]

I don't know what the official rules are in regards to piracy

I don't either. I don't think anyone does. That's the exact problem I'm trying to address here.

Is there really that much difference between "justifying" a behavior and "condoning" it, though? And how would one know when he's crossed that line?

As to "widely accepted" views about the subject... the problem with that argument is that the numbers on actual piracy show that it is also "widely accepted" to download unlicensed files from the internet, so it's kind of a moot point.

Honestly though, the "you can talk about it hypothetically" part is the strangest of them all, and one of the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard. It's like saying threatening to kill the president (if you're a U.S. citizen) isn't treason if you first put up fingerquotes.

I really do hope their policy is a bit more nuanced than you are suggesting, or could be made to be.

 

[StBishop]

Discussing piracy is fine.

But then, in the same breath:

Please do not discuss your support of piracy on the forums, as it's against the rules.

?

(see thread title)

I think that's the major thing that the mod was trying to get across. The site doesn't want to be associated with piracy sympathisers.

Try contacting a mod about it. Send them a PM.

 

[Emergent]

I think that's the major thing that the mod was trying to get across. The site doesn't want to be associated with piracy sympathisers.

So just ignore the first sentence, then? When you discuss something, that typically means there is more than one side to the issue.

 

[StBishop]

I think that's the major thing that the mod was trying to get across. The site doesn't want to be associated with piracy sympathisers.

So just ignore the first sentence, then? When you discuss something, that typically means there is more than one side to the issue.

I feel like you're extremely willfully stuffing your fingers into your ears and yelling in my face "I can't hear you."

You are allowed to discuss it.

You are not allowed to support it.

It is possible to discuss the merits of something without letting your personal feelings be known.

It is possible to discuss this topic without supporting it.

I don't understand why this is an alien concept.

The Escapist is a Gaming magazine. Piracy is a very hot topic in the industry and the Escapist doesn't want to be associated with pirates because even though you boldly assumed that all pirates think what they are doing is right, that doesn't make it so.

Every single person that I have ever known to pirate something has known it's wrong.

Just like every single shoplifter I've known has known that shoplifting is wrong.

Same with speeding and every other crime or misdeed out.

I understand that not all pirates think piracy is bad but the general concensus (even if it's only the public face that says so, contrary to a person's actions) is that piracy is bad.

The escapist forums don't want to be associated with supporting bad things.

 

[migo]

I'll happily buy from Good Old Games, even if I'm not sure I'll like the game, because they have a 100% DRM free policy, and I want to support that. I'll also buy a game I know I like from GamersGate or Stardock Impulse IF the game is DRM free, to support devs and publishers that wish to sell DRM free titles. I will never pay any money for a game with DRM as long as I can play a pirated version of the game that strips the DRM out. If it's that easy to crack, clearly the DRM isn't working, so I shouldn't have to pay for an inferior copy of the game. Simple as that. With the exception of Valve games on Steam - they fuck up non Valve titles, but their in-house titles work fine, so at least I know if I pay for a Valve game on Steam, it will work for me. That's what it's about - having a guaranteed working product. If there's no guarantee that it will work, I won't pay for something that I end up having to pirate anyway.

I'm even willing to pay for OnLive, although I'm waiting on some sales to come up for games I actually want before I go for it, or for the PlayPack to have a more robust selection. OnLive kinda counts as a form of DRM, but at least you always know your game is going to work.

 

[Emergent]

StBishop, please, this wasn't intended to be a soap box for our personal opinions about piracy. I was trying to get some kind of clarification from someone a bit more directly associated with the site than you about what we can, and cannot, say. I have also queried via the automated system here for such a thing, but received no response, so this thread was created as an alternative attempt to point out something I noticed in their policy regarding piracy (i.e. it does not exist, but is often referred to).

I do appreciate your personal insight on the issue, though.

 

[TPiddy]

The Escapist is just protecting itself. If potential advertisers / users come on here and see a bunch of pro-piracy threads the site could open itself up to attacks, hackers, bad press, etc.... for the sake of keeping the site up... just don't post things supporting piracy on here. It's the same idea as porn or any other activity that draws a largely negative reaction. The Escapist is trying to maintain it's image, which is important when talking about funding.

 

[Zechnophobe]

I kinda think it is cowardly. The discussion of Piracy is integral to any discussion of the economic virtues of Games. You cannot have a meaningful discussion about something if you only hear one side.

That said, escapist is much better than a lot of other sites I've been too.

My personal opinion: Links to piracy sites, or torrents or such should be moderated out. Discussing or supporting is simply required to have a dialogue on the topic.

I buy almost every game I play. I play a lot of games.