Collection Progression
- Thread starter John Scott Tynes
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you are all thinking very linear. if we use these tiers, other stuff has to adapt, like you can't distribute the hidden objects at constant frequency and there got to be intervals of vacuum synchronized with the story or enemies according to how the game would be made. I am sorry fro you, but games should be much more than some set of rules with content built onto them. it has to be symbiosis. collectibles should be left out or replaced by uniquetives in sandbox environments. else we get another GTA without flying birds just because some boring mind thought it is better to have em sit waiting for execution rather than being interactive(that is called lazy gamemaking). if it's not fun, don't use it, because it woun't make sence/realism.
You know, one thing that puzzles me is the very idea behind the article: I just don't see why a player exploring the game can't or shouldn't be overpowered in comparison to their content. I mean, if the player spends all that time powering themselves, they sure as hell want to feel like they're demigods. Is it a problem? I don't think so myself.
I find this to be a very good idea. Things like a new color for your coat, a new belt or a statue in your house if you have one. And and achievement that say's "This dude did the side quest and has a statue in his house!" It has no impact on the story what-so-ever so it wont "ruin" it for any of the two players, but the collecting player will still have something so show for his hard work while the other player won't. I still wouldn't be tempted to do the collecting part of the game but I'm sure some would, and this way we still go into the missions with the same starting point, except he's got a flashy new jacket and sneakers.Fenixius said:
I'm gonna point out that I'm thinking of offline RPGs, not MMOs. An of line RPG is more about the experience of the game and story itself than the XP, level and gear. (for me anyway)
You had some other good ideas too, but it's early where I live and my head hurt^^
1. Just have the enemies get stronger as you do, but at a slightly slower rate in each attribute (so if you get faster they get faster, if you get better defence, they get better defence etc etc). So if you grow 10 points in agility, make them grow 9 (or something similar).
2. Also, restrict abilities, so that you cannot have an ability before a story-line checkpoint. But save your exprience so that when the abilities are unlocked, you can upgrade them. This way, those who grind don't get over-powered abilities before their time but can still upgrade the abilities they have.
3. Give each enemy a set of moves which they can learn, but apply the same method as '1.' so that getting upgraded abilities still puts you at an advantage even though getting new abilities for yourself helps them.
Summary: This way, spending time collecting things gives you a benefit without making the game too much easier, it stops players who like to collect everything first from getting over-powered abilities early but still allows them to aquire upgrades (such as new combos, counter-attacks, finishing moves etc). And it also means that learning to (for example) counter early on in the game doesn't give you a massively unfair advantage over the enemy, as the enemies will learn a new ability as well (it can be the same as yours but it doesn't have to be) and how skilled they are at using their abilities can be determined by the difficulty setting (they might have awesome abilities but are too clumsy to execute them properly on easy, on normal they might be able to pull them off, but not as well as a person and on hard they would be able to use their abilities with enough skill to provide a challenge (which is why someone would play on hard)).
^^ Alternative to the idea proposed in the article.
2. Also, restrict abilities, so that you cannot have an ability before a story-line checkpoint. But save your exprience so that when the abilities are unlocked, you can upgrade them. This way, those who grind don't get over-powered abilities before their time but can still upgrade the abilities they have.
3. Give each enemy a set of moves which they can learn, but apply the same method as '1.' so that getting upgraded abilities still puts you at an advantage even though getting new abilities for yourself helps them.
Summary: This way, spending time collecting things gives you a benefit without making the game too much easier, it stops players who like to collect everything first from getting over-powered abilities early but still allows them to aquire upgrades (such as new combos, counter-attacks, finishing moves etc). And it also means that learning to (for example) counter early on in the game doesn't give you a massively unfair advantage over the enemy, as the enemies will learn a new ability as well (it can be the same as yours but it doesn't have to be) and how skilled they are at using their abilities can be determined by the difficulty setting (they might have awesome abilities but are too clumsy to execute them properly on easy, on normal they might be able to pull them off, but not as well as a person and on hard they would be able to use their abilities with enough skill to provide a challenge (which is why someone would play on hard)).
^^ Alternative to the idea proposed in the article.
A good point - I personally, as a player, don't see this to be an issue. Of course, as a designer and writer, it could be, but as a player, it's not a bad thing to be overpowered. Now, if you want to talk about how to make collecting items more interesting (not just more balanced), then there is a point to this article, and that's how I viewed it.Woe Is You said:
The balance issue, I simply considered to be a thought exercise.
Likely not, if all the rewards are based around "abilities". So that's one reason behind my idea for "transcendental rewards" - they are beyond the mechanics of the game. They're badges of honour, alternate outfits or attack animations, or maybe a new, even more badass battle theme. Personally, I think more out-of-game stuff should be awarded: wallpapers, songs, or on 360/Wii, Avatar accessories and apparel.Newbiespud said:
But it depends on the abilities on offer - a double jump, available at, say, Gold, would be invaluable even at Platinum. Another heart tank, heart piece, or energy tank (Mega Man, Zelda and Metroid respectively) is -always- useful. A new sword-dash which has extra range and goes through enemies? That'd be great! Of course, a fireball which does 10 damage to one enemy is worth nothing when you can cast Ultima for 9999 damage. A shield which drops inbound damage by 5% when enemies will kill you in 2 hits anyway is also entirely useless. So it depends on the sort of abilities.
- This one is a bad idea. Have you played Oblivion? Doing non-campaign stuff in that will result in more XP, which makes you stronger. Monsters level up at least at the same speed you do... net result: you never get any stronger. Your solution there sounds very similar.Shine-osophical said:
- More interesting, but it sounds like you'd be unlocking abilities which you can't use? Or perhaps you "spend" XP like in Fable, in the system you're discussing, in which case you do indeed have a hard cap on power which is lifted as you go. This works.Shine-osophical said:
Shine-osophical" post="6.159149.4003447 said:
i pretty sure there are already games out there that have this tiering system and im certain i've even played it. But i can't seem to think of what.
Just sound like a better plan than the dynamic scaling of AI strength to yours, like in Oblivion (You never get more powerful if everything else becomes just as powerful). I like to feel like i've gotten better as i progress thank you.
But then again being OP for the later storyline missions may alleviate the frustration from challenges in the future. I know that i certainly like to be 2-3 lvls above the mission requirements.
Just sound like a better plan than the dynamic scaling of AI strength to yours, like in Oblivion (You never get more powerful if everything else becomes just as powerful). I like to feel like i've gotten better as i progress thank you.
But then again being OP for the later storyline missions may alleviate the frustration from challenges in the future. I know that i certainly like to be 2-3 lvls above the mission requirements.
I don't mean to be insulting, but that is just nuts, in a bad way.
I like collecting things too, but I don't want to have to collect and re-collect and re-collect ad nauseum. It gets boring. If I want to go on a collection spree and be God-like for the first few missions, what of it? It just means that instead of 5 hours with 20 reloads to get to the mission that the story-only player commited to, it takes me 3 hours with 4 reloads which happened because I was snacking at the time, or something.
If anything, if the devs decide to put in booster collectibles, the games difficulty curve should be bent towards that, so that if the player is a non-collector, the game will be a bit more challenging for him without, but the collector, it will be a bit less. Rewards for doing more, and seeing more, and using the world they designed to it's fullest, instead of blaring through. Besides, this is what we have difficulty settings for.
As for making missions unavailable because you are of a higher level, that's just wrong. Look at it from a human perspective ( and since a good game should be immersive and feel somewhat close to real-life without all the boringness, that's how you should be looking at it ), would you rather ask John Rambo ( from the lastest movie ) to go in to the jungle to rescue your daughter, find the guy that stole your car, kill the rats in the basement, etc. or would you rather go with a John Rambo that is still in basic training before even going to 'Nam?
Not that Basic training guy can't kill your rats, but if the other one shows up and says 'I hear you got rat problems' you aren't going to say, 'no, that's ok, I'll wait for someone less of a badass to take care of the problem'
I don't know, I'm just saying. Penalizing anyone from getting the full story because they want to be better doesn't make sense to me.
I like collecting things too, but I don't want to have to collect and re-collect and re-collect ad nauseum. It gets boring. If I want to go on a collection spree and be God-like for the first few missions, what of it? It just means that instead of 5 hours with 20 reloads to get to the mission that the story-only player commited to, it takes me 3 hours with 4 reloads which happened because I was snacking at the time, or something.
If anything, if the devs decide to put in booster collectibles, the games difficulty curve should be bent towards that, so that if the player is a non-collector, the game will be a bit more challenging for him without, but the collector, it will be a bit less. Rewards for doing more, and seeing more, and using the world they designed to it's fullest, instead of blaring through. Besides, this is what we have difficulty settings for.
As for making missions unavailable because you are of a higher level, that's just wrong. Look at it from a human perspective ( and since a good game should be immersive and feel somewhat close to real-life without all the boringness, that's how you should be looking at it ), would you rather ask John Rambo ( from the lastest movie ) to go in to the jungle to rescue your daughter, find the guy that stole your car, kill the rats in the basement, etc. or would you rather go with a John Rambo that is still in basic training before even going to 'Nam?
Not that Basic training guy can't kill your rats, but if the other one shows up and says 'I hear you got rat problems' you aren't going to say, 'no, that's ok, I'll wait for someone less of a badass to take care of the problem'
I don't know, I'm just saying. Penalizing anyone from getting the full story because they want to be better doesn't make sense to me.
Mass Effect and Fallout 3 ended up using system that scaled the enemies to your level. The trade off is that at a higher level you have more options, so it can be a little more forgiving.
The most aggrivating thing about collection hunts is finding out about them retroactively and missing out on them. The Prince of Persia games is a good example of this, with the inability to revisit earlier levels if mistakenly skipped the collection widgets on that level. You have two options: Play the game through and wait for the next replay or restart the game. The first is directly dependent on one's interest in the game and the other can feel like a waste of time.
The most aggrivating thing about collection hunts is finding out about them retroactively and missing out on them. The Prince of Persia games is a good example of this, with the inability to revisit earlier levels if mistakenly skipped the collection widgets on that level. You have two options: Play the game through and wait for the next replay or restart the game. The first is directly dependent on one's interest in the game and the other can feel like a waste of time.
Personally I think the tier idea is good, but here's my contribution:
-Players that collect should be rewarded in their own right.
Side missions are fairly tough, but provide good story, or humour, but not have a huge impact on stats, (thats where the tiers or difficulty scaling comes into play)
-But I don't want the Fly-throughers to miss out on the good stuff, so I let them play as normal, but once they finish the main campaign they can go back and do the sidequests, explore the extra stuff, and again the difficulty is scaled up for them.
The incentive for both players to complete the game 100% would be to see a longer ending, or a completely different ending altogether along with the backstory/humour/both they encounter along the way.
Or give them a really big GUN!! XD
(Extra missions or more difficulties could work too now that I think about it!)
Now here's a confusing part that may or may not work:
- Depending on whether you scavenge or fly-through you get a different ending or different outcomes to missions depending on your playstyle.
Think the Metroid idea, with the N% completion over X time, but more rewarding.
Its risky, but I think it'll add to the replayability, especially if the gmae has a good enough story, or awesome missions.
-Players that collect should be rewarded in their own right.
Side missions are fairly tough, but provide good story, or humour, but not have a huge impact on stats, (thats where the tiers or difficulty scaling comes into play)
-But I don't want the Fly-throughers to miss out on the good stuff, so I let them play as normal, but once they finish the main campaign they can go back and do the sidequests, explore the extra stuff, and again the difficulty is scaled up for them.
The incentive for both players to complete the game 100% would be to see a longer ending, or a completely different ending altogether along with the backstory/humour/both they encounter along the way.
Or give them a really big GUN!! XD
(Extra missions or more difficulties could work too now that I think about it!)
Now here's a confusing part that may or may not work:
- Depending on whether you scavenge or fly-through you get a different ending or different outcomes to missions depending on your playstyle.
Think the Metroid idea, with the N% completion over X time, but more rewarding.
Its risky, but I think it'll add to the replayability, especially if the gmae has a good enough story, or awesome missions.
I was with you till you started talking about levels.
To me levels are a big chunk of what's wrong with games these days [http://thesection8.blogspot.com/2009/10/playing-role-of-role-player.html], so it kind of got lost on me a bit...
THAT said, Prototype is a good example of doing something like that. You're free to "sandbox" it and raise experience to learn new tricks, but you only unlock new tricks through the story mode. So someone who spends 50 hours just running around the city before doing the second mission will only get the starting abilities, while the guy that rushes through the story will only unlock the most abilities.
To me levels are a big chunk of what's wrong with games these days [http://thesection8.blogspot.com/2009/10/playing-role-of-role-player.html], so it kind of got lost on me a bit...
THAT said, Prototype is a good example of doing something like that. You're free to "sandbox" it and raise experience to learn new tricks, but you only unlock new tricks through the story mode. So someone who spends 50 hours just running around the city before doing the second mission will only get the starting abilities, while the guy that rushes through the story will only unlock the most abilities.
exactly, they think throwing levels in and some stuff to just fall out from levelups iw what makes a good game. fuck all such primitives, did you need levels in HL? F.E.A.R., Max Payne?
I only wish somebody one day comes with a system where story unlocks other stuff than levels ,and completely separate stuff is from hidden/unneccessary or random(for racing games) missions/areas.
Or that we completely leave the idea of everything being coded as gameplay mechanics and just return to putting the extra special stuff to harder-to-reach locations
I only wish somebody one day comes with a system where story unlocks other stuff than levels ,and completely separate stuff is from hidden/unneccessary or random(for racing games) missions/areas.
Or that we completely leave the idea of everything being coded as gameplay mechanics and just return to putting the extra special stuff to harder-to-reach locations
The solution you are proposing is bad one. Why? It creates gated content. And we all know that any obstructions on game play that aren't based on player skill are just irritating. It is like you gaining all the demigod powers and yet you can't fight the evil warlord because you haven?t spoken to your grandpa to teach you how to wield a sword.
As you have well outlined there are several problems with collectables:
Give no reward - boring and grindy
Give a powerful item - become mandatory
Give additional skills - game breaking
On the grey areas are things like:
Getting new skins, images, vanity items, achievements
Things like these are fun for some, and others will just go and seek a cool one and don't feel compelled to track all.
As for proper solutions to have the collectables game and still keep the main game balanced are:
1) Make collecting a game of its own.
Add a new progression tier that will level the more stuff you create. And the rewards and skills you get from it will only benefit finding more hidden stuff. Maybe you get more fame and you can influence NPCs to tell you about some secret cave. Or you get a rope with grappling hook, but it's only use is to reach places with more vanity items. You can combine ling chains of maps along your normal adventure. Anything goes as long as the two don't overlap too much. Sometimes defending more of your quest npcs will give you a hint at a collectables. And sometimes you'll find a rare monster in the cave the treasure map led you to.
2) Give rewards that will be replaced by main quest in a few levels.
Basically never give permanent bonuses as a reward for collectables. Give items that the player will replace in an hour play time or so. My most blatant example is the shot gun at the secret area in the first level of Doom 2. You see it clearly from the exit level area. And you might go and look for hidden entrances and buttons to get it. But it doesn't matter game play wise as the very first enemy in level 2 drops another one. In a fantasy world this is like doing a side quest to get a +1 sword. While the next tier monsters drop +3 as base loot. Or if you want to reward skill points then make it a buff lasting one hour. It does give you some advantage, but a skilled player will storm through the story without it.
Whichever way a game goes to implement collectables the main important thing is to keep it fun. Keep it fresh and relaxed. Because it should be there for those people who are getting weary of the main story and are looking for some different experience inside the game.
As you have well outlined there are several problems with collectables:
Give no reward - boring and grindy
Give a powerful item - become mandatory
Give additional skills - game breaking
On the grey areas are things like:
Getting new skins, images, vanity items, achievements
Things like these are fun for some, and others will just go and seek a cool one and don't feel compelled to track all.
As for proper solutions to have the collectables game and still keep the main game balanced are:
1) Make collecting a game of its own.
Add a new progression tier that will level the more stuff you create. And the rewards and skills you get from it will only benefit finding more hidden stuff. Maybe you get more fame and you can influence NPCs to tell you about some secret cave. Or you get a rope with grappling hook, but it's only use is to reach places with more vanity items. You can combine ling chains of maps along your normal adventure. Anything goes as long as the two don't overlap too much. Sometimes defending more of your quest npcs will give you a hint at a collectables. And sometimes you'll find a rare monster in the cave the treasure map led you to.
2) Give rewards that will be replaced by main quest in a few levels.
Basically never give permanent bonuses as a reward for collectables. Give items that the player will replace in an hour play time or so. My most blatant example is the shot gun at the secret area in the first level of Doom 2. You see it clearly from the exit level area. And you might go and look for hidden entrances and buttons to get it. But it doesn't matter game play wise as the very first enemy in level 2 drops another one. In a fantasy world this is like doing a side quest to get a +1 sword. While the next tier monsters drop +3 as base loot. Or if you want to reward skill points then make it a buff lasting one hour. It does give you some advantage, but a skilled player will storm through the story without it.
Whichever way a game goes to implement collectables the main important thing is to keep it fun. Keep it fresh and relaxed. Because it should be there for those people who are getting weary of the main story and are looking for some different experience inside the game.
I'd say collecting things for unlockables beats paying for DLC. Also, it adds a bit of replay value.Miki91 said:
This article reminds me of how the collectibles were done in "Prototype". Each collectible item rewarded the player some XP, which could be used to purchase skills for Mercer in the main menu. It marginally rewards the player for each item found, and offers them the chance to improve their character toward post-game.
Yet it would keep some skills or abilities in the shop system of "Prototype" were locked until the player progressed further into the story. The player could still collect collectible items and be rewarded XP, though they would reach a point where it couldn't be spent on anything due to "shop cap", but are open to spend all of their earned XP on more expensive skills after moving the story along.
That was actually the first time I seen an experience cap system used pretty well in the story. It gave me a good reason to collect the items (which is something I love), yet it also ensured the game was still difficult to me at points without throwing in a possible broken leveling system like what "Oblivion" does.
Yet it would keep some skills or abilities in the shop system of "Prototype" were locked until the player progressed further into the story. The player could still collect collectible items and be rewarded XP, though they would reach a point where it couldn't be spent on anything due to "shop cap", but are open to spend all of their earned XP on more expensive skills after moving the story along.
That was actually the first time I seen an experience cap system used pretty well in the story. It gave me a good reason to collect the items (which is something I love), yet it also ensured the game was still difficult to me at points without throwing in a possible broken leveling system like what "Oblivion" does.
Didn't anybody talk about batman yet?
That's the (almost) perfect balance between collecting and gaming.
You can improve only certain ability by collecting, but if you want all the power-ups, you must follow the story.
And there are the in-game maps that show you where you should look for the secrets.
I played the first time, mainly following the story, and I'm playing a second focusing on collecting, and I think they are both well balanced, and the maps take most of the frustration out of the searching.
I think that the batman model is even better than the shadow complex model, which is a bit frustrating at times.
That's the (almost) perfect balance between collecting and gaming.
You can improve only certain ability by collecting, but if you want all the power-ups, you must follow the story.
And there are the in-game maps that show you where you should look for the secrets.
I played the first time, mainly following the story, and I'm playing a second focusing on collecting, and I think they are both well balanced, and the maps take most of the frustration out of the searching.
I think that the batman model is even better than the shadow complex model, which is a bit frustrating at times.
The problem in that is often that in games, even when you progress in power, ennemies often follow your lead.. so you do get more «powerfull», but so does the ennemy; the battles are often just as long at the end as they are in the beggining. No real progress has been made, the difference between early and endgame are the bigger numbers used and some extra flexibilty with your ressources at the end.
I can see where the tiered approach is coming from, but I really don't think it would work if the reward for collecting is increased ability. The first problem is that being overpowered is the reward in this case, and that reward is completely removed upon reaching a new tier.
Another problem is that the balancing is still ruined, since, presumably, the climax of each "tier" is at its end, when the player is overpowered. So we just have the original problem of challenges being anticlimactic due to the balancing. The obvious response to this is to say "yes, but in a shorter time, the player won't be as overpowered as over the course of the entire game!" and then the problem is there's no advantage to collecting, so we're back to where we started, surrounded by pointless collectibles.
Balancing in games is always going to be incredibly difficult, regardless of the genre, and this is no solution. It's really just the original problem repeated on a smaller scale. Any advantage of developers finding it easier to balance difficulty across smaller sections is negated by the new problems the system creates.
Another problem is that the balancing is still ruined, since, presumably, the climax of each "tier" is at its end, when the player is overpowered. So we just have the original problem of challenges being anticlimactic due to the balancing. The obvious response to this is to say "yes, but in a shorter time, the player won't be as overpowered as over the course of the entire game!" and then the problem is there's no advantage to collecting, so we're back to where we started, surrounded by pointless collectibles.
Balancing in games is always going to be incredibly difficult, regardless of the genre, and this is no solution. It's really just the original problem repeated on a smaller scale. Any advantage of developers finding it easier to balance difficulty across smaller sections is negated by the new problems the system creates.
I agree, and I have a long-winded explanation on why.Naqel said:
When you play the game straight through, you're immersing yourself in it. You seek to become one with your character, to feel his victories and defeats, and to revel with him when the end comes. It's a certain way of playing the game, and it demands certain rewards all the way through. When someone plays the game like this, it makes sense to reward them with the power to play more effectively - stat boosts, new items, and so on.
When you're going item-hunting, you're no longer playing the game as a story to immerse yourself in, but as a gadget to tweak. The game is not something to be experienced, but something to be dissected. You're looking for different things. Now, if you devote a lot of time to probing the game world and if you tweak it effectively, you deserve rewards (or at least, the developers would be stupid not to reward you for using their product), but the rewards should be different from the awards in the immersion approach. Alternative costumes, artwork, funny hacks, and other things of this nature revel in the fact that the game is still a game in the end, and regardless of what its story is, it's a work of code that can be tweaked with.
Playing the game for the story is what the developers usually aim for, but playing with the game as an object is still a valid way to have fun, and it deserves its own kind of reward system.