Commentary on "Fire and Blood"
- Thread starter Greg Tito
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Thank you for the thoughtful and contagiously giddy commentary throughout the season, Mr. Tito, I've greatly enjoyed it. I've yet to catch the final episode, knowing all too well the inevitable, inexplicable emptiness I'll feel once it's over and the credits roll. I'm sure I'll be better served by savouring it for when my mood is perfect, and I have a whole evening to properly absorb it.
Funny thing is, before this series started, I did not count myself a great Martin fan, having found the latest title lacking, but now my excitement has been ignited yet again, and I am eager to consume the newest title. Hopefully, it will be more focused than Feast and prove that Martin actually knows where he intends to take this jumbled narrative.
Funny thing is, before this series started, I did not count myself a great Martin fan, having found the latest title lacking, but now my excitement has been ignited yet again, and I am eager to consume the newest title. Hopefully, it will be more focused than Feast and prove that Martin actually knows where he intends to take this jumbled narrative.
Thanks, MatsVS, I've enjoyed writing it throughout the season. I was disappointed by Feast as well, I even thought that Robert Jordan's successor did a better job keeping my interest, which sounds like blasphemy but it was true.MatsVS said:
Hopefully Dance will redeem Martin as much as this series has.
Greg
Man, the season flew by. It was an amazing ride, though - HBO did an incredible job with the adaptation, staying true to the spirit of the books but also adding some great content and making it their own. Bravo, HBO, I can't wait for season 2, and hopefully seasons 3, 4, and 5 after that!
And I've really enjoyed reading these commentaries after each episode - it was great to read some interesting thoughts from a fellow fan of the books and show. Well done, Greg.
So, we have A Dance with Dragons to look forward to, and the DVD release. But it's still going to be a long wait for season 2...
And I've really enjoyed reading these commentaries after each episode - it was great to read some interesting thoughts from a fellow fan of the books and show. Well done, Greg.
So, we have A Dance with Dragons to look forward to, and the DVD release. But it's still going to be a long wait for season 2...
Odd. I assumed that the whole Daenerys/ Drogo thing would be way more graphic and awful in the books than in the TV series (I watched that part in the series first before delving into the books) but it seemed, to me, that the whole thing was somewhat less forceful in the books. There's the whole "No" part when they first have sex where in the books, where Dany was a lot less tentative whereas in the series she's on the verge of breaking down at the thought of getting raped right then in there, which was followed by the later stuff both in the book and the series where she basically swoons for the guy while at the same time she finds her strength.
I'm not sure if I misunderstood it, badly, or if somehow I'm missing the point made in the separate novella about her (Blood of the Dragon) that better explains her misadventures with the Dothraki.
Can anyone clear that up for me?
I'm not sure if I misunderstood it, badly, or if somehow I'm missing the point made in the separate novella about her (Blood of the Dragon) that better explains her misadventures with the Dothraki.
Can anyone clear that up for me?
The way I understand it, and I may be wrong, is that Blood of the Dragon is comprised of both the contents of the book with a little bit more content to flesh everything out, and that I may be forming an incomplete picture of the whole deal.Greg Tito said:
Why do I say that? I've read that a lot of people, especially females, tend to look at the TV adaptation in a way that makes it seem like it was somewhat sanitisized in that part, making Dany's experience less gruesome, but somehow I can't wrap it around my head just by seeing what was there in the written page. To me, it seemed as if it was made a bit more shocking than in the books.
Was it awful? Yeah, very, especially when considering Dany starts as a 13 year old tween, but the way I saw it, if only going by what I've read, is that Khal Drogo was a lot more tender to her in the beginning in the books than in the series. Especially during their first time together.
This is why I hate television.. I find something I really like and watch it as often as I can and then the season ends and the long wait for the next one begins. Grr.
Feast for Crows is killing me. Why the author decided to forget about all the interesting characters and the interesting things they're doing is beyond me. Is it just me or does Martin rely far too much on story twists? He constantly builds up expectations only to go the completely opposite direction and it was old by book 3.
Feast for Crows is killing me. Why the author decided to forget about all the interesting characters and the interesting things they're doing is beyond me. Is it just me or does Martin rely far too much on story twists? He constantly builds up expectations only to go the completely opposite direction and it was old by book 3.
Think waiting till spring is bad? Think about how long ago Feast came out. As for why it doesn't have all the characters. GRRM explains it as he wrote too much, and had to put out Half of his book. That doesn't really explain why it's taken forever and day for Dance to come out though.MajorDolphin said:
OT: I'm looking forward to season two and three.
I have to wonder who they'll pick to play Briene of Tarth.
Here's hoping they keep her ugly
True. I was just looking at the release dates. I'll have to find something worth reading after I knock out Dragons.rickthetrick said:Think waiting till spring is bad? Think about how long ago Feast came out. As for why it doesn't have all the characters. GRRM explains it as he wrote too much, and had to put out Half of his book. That doesn't really explain why it's taken forever and day for Dance to come out though.MajorDolphin said:
OT: I'm looking forward to season two and three.
I have to wonder who they'll pick to play Briene of Tarth.
Here's hoping they keep her ugly
( Is it just me or would this series make a great MMO.
All the hints at long past times and kings almost lends itself to it )From what I've heard (I'm a neophyte to the Song of Ice and Fire - I've only read Game of Thrones as yet), Martin made the same mistake in Book 4 that Robert Jordan did...in book 4. Character overexposure. Some viewpoint characters are dropped in book 4 and book 4's will be dropped in book 5 - they happen concurrently. Or so I've been told.
And to be fair, Brandon Sanderson is one of the best fantasy writers of the day. In the gap between deciding it was inevitable that Robert Jordan would die before Wheel of Time was completed and Sanderson being declared his successor, I feared it would be like reading the batch of Foundation books written after Asimov's death. He's a different sort of writer than Jordan or Martin, but still good.
For me, as a Sanderson fan, the agony is waiting for book 2 (and the remaining 8 or so) of the Stormlight Archive. He's been quoted as saying the project will take him 12 years, and, according to his website's progress logs, he's not even working on book 2 yet. That said, I can't blame him for prioritizing the last of the Wheel of Time books before going back to his own megaproject.
The TV buffs have it easy - they at least have guarenteed timelines. It's not uncommon for the megaproject book series to take nearly 2 years between installments, and I've heard of even longer waits. And to us rabid fans, each installment lasts 1-2 weeks, rather than the 10-26 of a "season."
And despite the parallels to Dune, the inspiration is the War of the Roses. Many of the major characters have direct parallels in history. Heck, when I was first reading Game of Thrones, my Dad was reading an in depth history of that time period, and several house and place names were quite comparable between the two. That said, there weren't any ice zombies (white walkers) or dragons involved in any part of the War of the Roses. Would've made history class in grade 9 more interesting, but sadly...
And to be fair, Brandon Sanderson is one of the best fantasy writers of the day. In the gap between deciding it was inevitable that Robert Jordan would die before Wheel of Time was completed and Sanderson being declared his successor, I feared it would be like reading the batch of Foundation books written after Asimov's death. He's a different sort of writer than Jordan or Martin, but still good.
For me, as a Sanderson fan, the agony is waiting for book 2 (and the remaining 8 or so) of the Stormlight Archive. He's been quoted as saying the project will take him 12 years, and, according to his website's progress logs, he's not even working on book 2 yet. That said, I can't blame him for prioritizing the last of the Wheel of Time books before going back to his own megaproject.
The TV buffs have it easy - they at least have guarenteed timelines. It's not uncommon for the megaproject book series to take nearly 2 years between installments, and I've heard of even longer waits. And to us rabid fans, each installment lasts 1-2 weeks, rather than the 10-26 of a "season."
And despite the parallels to Dune, the inspiration is the War of the Roses. Many of the major characters have direct parallels in history. Heck, when I was first reading Game of Thrones, my Dad was reading an in depth history of that time period, and several house and place names were quite comparable between the two. That said, there weren't any ice zombies (white walkers) or dragons involved in any part of the War of the Roses. Would've made history class in grade 9 more interesting, but sadly...
I don't know of any grass roots resistance movements in ASOIAF series other than maybe what Dany starts up in A Clash of King and A Storm of Swords; and even then she is still in the free cities far from Westeros.Noelveiga said:
Vary's and Baelish were never Stark's friends they are master manipulators.
I'm sorry I just don't see the parallels with Dune.
OT: I enjoyed the adaptation but can't help but feel like big chunks of the back/connecting stories are still missing.
For example think about how many times Lyanna's name is mentioned in the book compared to the show. By the end of AGoT you knew that Ned had promised Lyanna something more than just a burial plot under Winterfell; that sense of missing information conveyed by Ned's constant thoughts about the promise made to his dying sister is sorely absent from show.
Another example missing back story would be the speeches given to John Snow by Lord Mormont and Meister Aemon. Both of those were cut short for the show. For me it was those types of connecting threads that made the story really enjoyable and immersive but are missing in the TV series.
Then there are the missing dreams of the POV characters, and the forgone insights due to change in medium. I'm re-watching episode 10 now and from what's shown you would never guess that Catelyn blames herself for Ned's death; or that Dany had visions about the death of her son (and his would be destiny) while he was still in the womb.
On the other hand, they did do a fantastic job with most of the supporting characters especially Tywin Lannister. His introduction in episode 7 (You win or You Die) was perfect. And how they've built up the role of Theon Greyjoy was nicely done also, give his role as a POV character in A Clash of Kings.
With the books I had to look up on the wiki just who Theon was again by the time I started on A Clash of Kings, from you show you wouldn't know it but he really is only mentioned about 5 times in the entire book.
In the end I really do hope that get a better budget for Season 2 given the number of battles that happen and that fact that Dany almost always keeps at least one of the those Dragons with her at all times.
"Historical accuracy" is used because they are researched and intended to be historically accurate to medieval customs. That's why. It's not some kind of "nerd delusion." That's just ignorance speaking on your part.Noelveiga said:
Who have you been talking with, then? Nobody has been making it up to be as something groundbreaking and original as you were expecting it to be. Those particular plot strands, especially, have been around for thousands of years and you could fill the back of trucks with all kinds of different stories about the same thing. JRRM just does it exceptionally well, that's all.
This. Fantasy is always stronger to me when it has real-world analogues, and Martin does that expertly. This is the reason I prefer playing D&D with rules that adhere to how humans actually lived in history, rather than supermen with super human powers at level one. And it's why Game of Thrones resonates with so many people, especially me.unabomberman said:
I read the first few paragraphs and didn't spoil anything for myself.
But as a newcomer to the series, I said "Oh shit" each time I saw a new dragon. And I agree, they really did a great job with the special effects.
But we have to wait an entire year for the next season? Sadface maximum. Guess I now have a reason to read the books.
Come on Susan, I want my Recap.
But as a newcomer to the series, I said "Oh shit" each time I saw a new dragon. And I agree, they really did a great job with the special effects.
But we have to wait an entire year for the next season? Sadface maximum. Guess I now have a reason to read the books.
Come on Susan, I want my Recap.
I have not started reading the series yet, but after watching Season 1 I fully intend to.
Coming into watching the show I was a big LOTR fan, now I think I might be a Martin fan as well. I enjoy how he doesn't hold onto his main characters like Tolkien did...no "coming back to life" heroes here.
As a side note...DAMN YOU HBO FOR MAKING ME WAIT UNTIL NEXT SPRING TO SEE A NEW EPISODE!
Aw well, like I said, go to Barnes n Noble, buy the series(up to this point), then wait for Season 1 to come out on DVD.
Coming into watching the show I was a big LOTR fan, now I think I might be a Martin fan as well. I enjoy how he doesn't hold onto his main characters like Tolkien did...no "coming back to life" heroes here.
As a side note...DAMN YOU HBO FOR MAKING ME WAIT UNTIL NEXT SPRING TO SEE A NEW EPISODE!
Aw well, like I said, go to Barnes n Noble, buy the series(up to this point), then wait for Season 1 to come out on DVD.
Roz has some sort of magical power, have you noticed? As soon as she takes her clothes off, people around her just begin yammering on about all sorts of things. I move she be referred to henceforth as "Roz the Magical Exposition Whore."
I too have felt the books have been going down-hill for sometime. The last was particularly bad and slow moving. Looking forward to the next book though, it is a huge tome and some good characters are back.
On the tv series, I've liked it more than the books. Easier to follow, wonderfully acted in most parts, good fights, the music was used in a stunning fashion--really draws you in.
Good point on picking up how inept it portrayed Tyrion in combat against the Northern forces (but not against the raiders). I do remember he did well in the books, and was not just knocked out and then mocked by Bronn. An opportunity missed there. And they were doing so well with Tyrion (how perfect is Tywin in the series?).
"Roz the Magical Exposition Whore." Lol, awesome title.
If they play their cards right (directing cards that is), they can cram the boring parts of the books into a smaller space, or skip many of them entirely. The merits of a show over a book I say.
Now that season 1 is done, I actually plan to run a D&D game where the players are Lannister guards. There are more than a few things they can get involved in, and influence. Or maybe Jory/Ned/Robb's men will just kill them.
On the tv series, I've liked it more than the books. Easier to follow, wonderfully acted in most parts, good fights, the music was used in a stunning fashion--really draws you in.
Good point on picking up how inept it portrayed Tyrion in combat against the Northern forces (but not against the raiders). I do remember he did well in the books, and was not just knocked out and then mocked by Bronn. An opportunity missed there. And they were doing so well with Tyrion (how perfect is Tywin in the series?).
"Roz the Magical Exposition Whore." Lol, awesome title.
If they play their cards right (directing cards that is), they can cram the boring parts of the books into a smaller space, or skip many of them entirely. The merits of a show over a book I say.
Now that season 1 is done, I actually plan to run a D&D game where the players are Lannister guards. There are more than a few things they can get involved in, and influence. Or maybe Jory/Ned/Robb's men will just kill them.
This is one of those things personally I wasn't sure about. Oh their bantering was great, but it's how you put it, the two 'spymasters'. This is exactly the way it comes off in the show, but Littlefinger isn't a spymaster he's the master of coin. Sure he'll have his own spy network, but Varys is the real spymaster with knowledge that borders on black magic, and a master of disguise too boot! Littlefinger is the schemer who you give two gold coins to rub together and two more will fall out. The show sets them up as Spy vs Spy, but in the source material it's more Wall Street vs CIA. It's not that big a deal really, it just bothers me a little because having Littlefinger as a spymaster too kind of makes Varys redundant. Not only can he do The Spider's job but he's the pimp daddy of Kings Landing to boot!
As for the show, this about sums it up for me.
10/10!
@Noelveiga: have you read the books or are you just passing judgement on them based on a TV adaptation? because if you have read the books then okay I can entertain your points and have a discussion on them, but if you haven't then all I can say is "Don't judge a book by it's TV adaptation".
I'm an avid reader, I have more books than I have time to read them, but I have to say that A Song of Ice and Fire took my cynical "I've seen it all" attitude and gave it a slap so hard that I can't do anything but applaud GRRM for being such a great story teller and say "Well Played". I believe, and frankly I think a lot of the hardcore GRRM fans would agree, that Book 1 of A Song of Ice and Fire has enough material for a 20 episode season, but what we got in these 10 episodes is so good that we actually feel grateful that they tried so hard to be so true to the source material on such a low budget and time constraints.
Anyone that wants to have a real opinion about GRRM should go read the books (there's a reason English teachers want their students to actually read a book and not just the cliffnotes)
Anyway, I have to add a few things to the general discussion: There are 3 main things I feel the TV series missed out on.
1.- Sansa betraying her father's plan to Cersei to accentuate in the future just how misserable Sansa's life has become.
2.- The Hound taking the mantle of King's Guard but not taking the oath: Cersei pretty much turned the King's Guard into a laughing stock when she dismissed Ser Barristan, but then when they offer a position to The Hound and he says "I'll wear the cloak but I will not take any vows" to the council's face and they just sit there and take it, that gives a whole lot of insight into just how bad things are getting in the capitol and the disdain Sandor has for the nobility.
3.- When Daenerys first asks the Dothraki for their Blood Oaths and they refuse her: At Drogo's pyre Daeny wants to rebuild the khalasar and she asks her remaining riders to be her Blood Riders, but they all refuse her because she's a woman and thus weak, but after she comes out of the fire with three baby dragons they can't fall fast enough to their knees, and this is something that serves to illustrate just how every other man of power treats Daeny when they first meet her: try to bed her cause she's hot, but then fear her cause she commands some Dothraki barbarians and she has 3 dragons.
I'm an avid reader, I have more books than I have time to read them, but I have to say that A Song of Ice and Fire took my cynical "I've seen it all" attitude and gave it a slap so hard that I can't do anything but applaud GRRM for being such a great story teller and say "Well Played". I believe, and frankly I think a lot of the hardcore GRRM fans would agree, that Book 1 of A Song of Ice and Fire has enough material for a 20 episode season, but what we got in these 10 episodes is so good that we actually feel grateful that they tried so hard to be so true to the source material on such a low budget and time constraints.
Anyone that wants to have a real opinion about GRRM should go read the books (there's a reason English teachers want their students to actually read a book and not just the cliffnotes)
Anyway, I have to add a few things to the general discussion: There are 3 main things I feel the TV series missed out on.
1.- Sansa betraying her father's plan to Cersei to accentuate in the future just how misserable Sansa's life has become.
2.- The Hound taking the mantle of King's Guard but not taking the oath: Cersei pretty much turned the King's Guard into a laughing stock when she dismissed Ser Barristan, but then when they offer a position to The Hound and he says "I'll wear the cloak but I will not take any vows" to the council's face and they just sit there and take it, that gives a whole lot of insight into just how bad things are getting in the capitol and the disdain Sandor has for the nobility.
3.- When Daenerys first asks the Dothraki for their Blood Oaths and they refuse her: At Drogo's pyre Daeny wants to rebuild the khalasar and she asks her remaining riders to be her Blood Riders, but they all refuse her because she's a woman and thus weak, but after she comes out of the fire with three baby dragons they can't fall fast enough to their knees, and this is something that serves to illustrate just how every other man of power treats Daeny when they first meet her: try to bed her cause she's hot, but then fear her cause she commands some Dothraki barbarians and she has 3 dragons.