Commentary on ?The Wolf and the Lion?

[EMFCRACKSHOT]

As for the forging process, it is indeed different, due to the poor quality and scarcity of metal ores in japan.

Okay, I have to ask what is your source for this statement? Nothing I read in my studies, nor anything I have seen on the Internet has suggested that the ore in Japan was either terribly scarce or of lesser quality-- quite the opposite in fact: the Japanese pioneered several forging techniques which are still in use today.

The japanese forging techniques were incredibly advanced, but japan is incredibly lacking in most forms of natural resources, especially coal and iron. I thought this was well known, and its detailed in a number of texts dealing with the japanese empire.
The lengthy forging process and numerous foldings of the blade were designed to remove the impurities from the metal, producing steel that was comparable in quality to european steel.
lack of coal, iron ore etc was a key factor in the japanese expansion into china.

 

[wonkify]

I'm embarrassed that I missed the Varys-Illyrio plotting when I read the series years back. Thank you for this clarification. Don't know how such a major element was opaque to me, must have been blasting through reading too fast. I thought the references to 'Lys' was an attempt to smear Varys, not realizing how major the connection really was.

Love The Escapist coverage of Game of Thrones.

 

[Avernus]

Greg, you'll have to pause when you look at the skycell. I was specifically watching to see if it was sloped, and if you look carefully, you'll see there is a gentle gradient.

 

[Jaime_Wolf]

This part caught my eye because I've been waiting to see reactions to it:

"For the show to throw it out there so early seems to miss the opportunity to investigate how such a homosexual relationship was so scandalous back then. Plus, the scene went on about 30 seconds too long for me. Were the slurping sound effects absolutely necessary?"

First, "Back then"? This isn't historical fiction. And it's relatively clear that homosexuality isn't particularly uncommon or even necessarily frowned upon given Littlefinger's speech about the predilections of other nobles in the same episode. And it's not like they've been subtle with any of the straight romances. Also, how does showing the audience prevent them from making good on the opportunity? It's not like the other characters can see what we're seeing.

Second, I know it may be hard to believe, but gay people exist and sometimes we like seeing gay relationships in media. Hiding it or making it "subtle" can be interesting in some cases, but hiding it from the viewer also means we just don't see as much of it. And it seems like it would have been a little silly in this case. Audiences pick up on the knowing glances and little hints pretty quickly, so avoiding coming out and showing the relationship to the audience is mostly just an excuse to avoid focusing on gay characters.

Third, really? You're really going to complain about a few seconds of gay sex noises in a show where we've seen the tits of every adult woman in the cast in the first handfull of episodes? Was it too much for you when they went into the brothel and there were half a dozen many boobs bouncing around in a single scene? Given the context of the show, that bit about it going on "too long" for you is downright offensive.

Does it really bother you so deeply that a show took a few minutes out of catering to straight men to acknowledge that other kinds of people exist too?

 

[Raoul_Duke]

Best episode yet. The Eyrie is beautiful. Lysa is more than a few twists short of a slinky. Bronn is deadly and delightfully droll. In addition to the scene between Baelish and Varys, I really liked the interplay between Cersei and Robert. It served to help flesh out her character and provide justification for her later actions. IMHO most of the added (not in the book) scenes are doing just that, fleshing out the characters in ways that the book would explain by way of interior monologue. Which is how exposition should be handled in film.

I'm hesitant to say this, because last week I wondered about where Renly was, and this week got entirely too much Renly (slurp, slurp), but I hope the Blackfish is in the next episode.

 

[Ensiferum]

I have to admit, I forgot about the whole "breastfeeding" scene from the novel until they showed it, and while I was disgusted (and also a bit concerned about the actor playing the kid) the scene perfectly, if not horrifically, portrayed just how mad Lysa is.

One thing I'm still a bit annoyed with is the overabundance of extra sex and nudity that adds nothing to the plot. There was already the right amount of it in the books; throwing more of it in there for no reason just takes me out of my suspension of disbelief and makes me feel like I'm watching bad medieval themed porn and reminds me that the series has certainly been "HBO'd up."

That said I absolutely loved the action sequences; the fight between The Mountain and The Hound was pure AWESOME; you could almost feel lightning in the air when their greatswords met. I also really enjoyed the scene where the mountain men attacked Catelyn's party (though it should have lasted longer) and the ending duel between Ned and Jaime.

 

[El_Ganso]

Each man in his life has seen so many films and read so many books that he thinks he has seen everything and nothing will surprise him, and I must admit that while experiencing the story through the books there was more than one occasion where I thought "and here is where X comes to save the day" only to have George R R Martin slap me upside the head and throw a twist on the story that left me speechless.

The first book has great memorable ones, but the whole saga is full of moments where I just had to say "No he didn't!".

Episode 5 was awesome, I especially liked the scene with Fat Bob and Hot Cersei having a polite conversation about how much they hated each other (since it was never in the books).

Also the scene with Loras and Renly was a bit too early in my opinion:

Spoiler

since it's not until book 3 or 4 where they really hint at gay relationship between both

And in closing, I want to see more Arya and Jon Snow dammit!

 

[Twotricks]

This is question for people that read the books

1. Varys-Illyrio scene.

In the book Arya sees two dark figures walking trough secret passages. You can vaguely guess one is Varys. But I dont think you can guess second one is Illyrio. Even more - its a key event that is shadowing a secret hand leading the problems in Westeros. And you never really know who these two people are (in the book)

2. Renly - knight of flowers scene

In book there are hints on Renly being homosexual. But there is not even a letter on knight of flowers. Especially not on him having relationship with Renly

3. Varys-Littlefinger scene

The exchange of threats didnt happen in book. Again its hinted that they hate each other.
But here clearly Littlefinger have dominance over Varys , while in book this never happens.




What do you think about these changes ?

 

[Twotricks]

This is question for people that read the books

1. Varys-Illyrio scene.

In the book Arya sees two dark figures walking trough secret passages. You can vaguely guess one is Varys. But I dont think you can guess second one is Illyrio. Even more - its a key event that is shadowing a secret hand leading the problems in Westeros. And you never really know who these two people are (in the book)

2. Renly - knight of flowers scene

In book there are hints on Renly being homosexual. But there is not even a letter on knight of flowers. Especially not on him having relationship with Renly

3. Varys-Littlefinger scene

The exchange of threats didnt happen in book. Again its hinted that they hate each other.
But here clearly Littlefinger have dominance over Varys , while in book this never happens.




What do you think about these changes ?

 

[Mannhammer]

This is question for people that read the books

1. Varys-Illyrio scene.

In the book Arya sees two dark figures walking trough secret passages. You can vaguely guess one is Varys. But I dont think you can guess second one is Illyrio. Even more - its a key event that is shadowing a secret hand leading the problems in Westeros. And you never really know who these two people are (in the book)

2. Renly - knight of flowers scene

In book there are hints on Renly being homosexual. But there is not even a letter on knight of flowers. Especially not on him having relationship with Renly

3. Varys-Littlefinger scene

The exchange of threats didnt happen in book. Again its hinted that they hate each other.
But here clearly Littlefinger have dominance over Varys , while in book this never happens.




What do you think about these changes ?

1. I always suspected Illyrio was the second figure in that scene. It's nice to have it confirmed.

2. True but... "Sure, the books strongly suggest something between Loras and Renly, and even then there isn't a firm (heh) confirmation that they were lovers, even though Martin himself said that was his intention." -Greg Tito
My guess is that this shows writers and GRRM wanted the Renly Loras relationship was crystal clear to the audience.

3. Very good scene.

Plus one more scene4.) Cersei and King Robert: I liked that it gave us an inside look into the royal pairs relationship, even if it did seem warmer then they were in the book.

Overall the HBO series seems to be adding material to the world not taking it away which is what I feared a filmed adaptation of the series. Thank you David Benioff, D. B. Weiss, GRRM and HBO for not screwing this up.

What I have been wondering is: For people that haven't read the books are you able to follow what is going on easily?

 

[Twotricks]

This is question for people that read the books

1. Varys-Illyrio scene.

In the book Arya sees two dark figures walking trough secret passages. You can vaguely guess one is Varys. But I dont think you can guess second one is Illyrio. Even more - its a key event that is shadowing a secret hand leading the problems in Westeros. And you never really know who these two people are (in the book)

2. Renly - knight of flowers scene

In book there are hints on Renly being homosexual. But there is not even a letter on knight of flowers. Especially not on him having relationship with Renly

3. Varys-Littlefinger scene

The exchange of threats didnt happen in book. Again its hinted that they hate each other.
But here clearly Littlefinger have dominance over Varys , while in book this never happens.




What do you think about these changes ?

1. I always suspected Illyrio was the second figure in that scene. It's nice to have it confirmed.

2. True but... "Sure, the books strongly suggest something between Loras and Renly, and even then there isn't a firm (heh) confirmation that they were lovers, even though Martin himself said that was his intention." -Greg Tito
My guess is that this shows writers and GRRM wanted the Renly Loras relationship was crystal clear to the audience.

3. Very good scene.

Plus one more scene4.) Cersei and King Robert: I liked that it gave us an inside look into the royal pairs relationship, even if it did seem warmer then they were in the book.

Overall the HBO series seems to be adding material to the world not taking it away which is what I feared a filmed adaptation of the series. Thank you David Benioff, D. B. Weiss, GRRM and HBO for not screwing this up.

What I have been wondering is: For people that haven't read the books are you able to follow what is going on easily?

I must agree that series is developing really good.
And even is a small bonus for people that read the book , since it gives slightly adjusted angles on many characters. Making it surprising and fresh even for us.

Cersei and King Robert scene is great.
In books their relationship (and even fact that Cersei really wanted the relationship to work) i sonly hinted trough Jamie's dialogues.


Still revealing Illriyo so bluntly. It takes a lot off the mystery.
(It was never revealed in books - Only on fan forums by RR Martin himself.)
I am reading third book now ,
and only now i was starting to suspect the dark figure was Illryo

 

[Patshiv]

As for the forging process, it is indeed different, due to the poor quality and scarcity of metal ores in japan.

Okay, I have to ask what is your source for this statement? Nothing I read in my studies, nor anything I have seen on the Internet has suggested that the ore in Japan was either terribly scarce or of lesser quality-- quite the opposite in fact: the Japanese pioneered several forging techniques which are still in use today.

The japanese forging techniques were incredibly advanced, but japan is incredibly lacking in most forms of natural resources, especially coal and iron. I thought this was well known, and its detailed in a number of texts dealing with the japanese empire.
The lengthy forging process and numerous foldings of the blade were designed to remove the impurities from the metal, producing steel that was comparable in quality to european steel.
lack of coal, iron ore etc was a key factor in the japanese expansion into china.

Though this has strayed a bit from the OT i will say this:

This is true, when talking about how different technologies evolved, this kind of situation is usually referred to as a selective lack of resources. It leads to either abandoning that technology, which just isnt possible when it comes to implements of warfare. Or else it leads to technologies working around that selective lack. In the case of japan they found a way to forge their swords that is generally regarded as superior to midieval european techniques.
Selective lack of resources also usually result in early expansion, either trade or conquest.

 

[Spectrum_Prez]

This is question for people that read the books

1. Varys-Illyrio scene.

In the book Arya sees two dark figures walking trough secret passages. You can vaguely guess one is Varys. But I dont think you can guess second one is Illyrio. Even more - its a key event that is shadowing a secret hand leading the problems in Westeros. And you never really know who these two people are (in the book)

2. Renly - knight of flowers scene

In book there are hints on Renly being homosexual. But there is not even a letter on knight of flowers. Especially not on him having relationship with Renly

3. Varys-Littlefinger scene

The exchange of threats didnt happen in book. Again its hinted that they hate each other.
But here clearly Littlefinger have dominance over Varys , while in book this never happens.




What do you think about these changes ?

1. I always suspected Illyrio was the second figure in that scene. It's nice to have it confirmed.

2. True but... "Sure, the books strongly suggest something between Loras and Renly, and even then there isn't a firm (heh) confirmation that they were lovers, even though Martin himself said that was his intention." -Greg Tito
My guess is that this shows writers and GRRM wanted the Renly Loras relationship was crystal clear to the audience.

3. Very good scene.

Plus one more scene4.) Cersei and King Robert: I liked that it gave us an inside look into the royal pairs relationship, even if it did seem warmer then they were in the book.

Overall the HBO series seems to be adding material to the world not taking it away which is what I feared a filmed adaptation of the series. Thank you David Benioff, D. B. Weiss, GRRM and HBO for not screwing this up.

What I have been wondering is: For people that haven't read the books are you able to follow what is going on easily?

I must agree that series is developing really good.
And even is a small bonus for people that read the book , since it gives slightly adjusted angles on many characters. Making it surprising and fresh even for us.

Cersei and King Robert scene is great.
In books their relationship (and even fact that Cersei really wanted the relationship to work) i sonly hinted trough Jamie's dialogues.


Still revealing Illriyo so bluntly. It takes a lot off the mystery.
(It was never revealed in books - Only on fan forums by RR Martin himself.)
I am reading third book now ,
and only now i was starting to suspect the dark figure was Illryo

Nah, I'm with you on this one, revealing the second figure to be Illyrio was jumping the gun and takes away the mystery from the 'grand' conspiracy that Varys is part of. Also, in the books it's difficult to see Illyrio as a strict ally of the Targaryens as much as someone trying to profit off of them. To see him conspiring on their behalf is a little out of character.

Personally, I thought the Loras Tyrell + Renly scene made a lot of sense since it explains the nature of the Tyrells' loyalty to Renly later on. What I'm not particularly fond of is the actor playing Renly, who is just way too soft here. He's downright pathetic actually, which is not the way you're supposed to see Renly until very very late in the game (*snerk*, 'game').

The Cersei and Robert scene seemed totally off, I don't remember in the books Cersei ever trying to make it work as long as they suggest (up to her miscarriage). I got the impression that she went from loving the Targaryen prince (Rhaeger, was it?), to very briefly hoping Robert was similar, to going back to Jaime.

Also, a few more pet peeves:

Spoiler: Lancel Lannister is way too snivelling right now. Spoiler underneath.

Fer christsake, Cersei has an affair with him later because he reminds her of Jaime. That's just not this character right now. Hopefully his role in the murder changes his character around.

What happened to Catelyn's uncle Edmund Blackfish?

I can understand them largely writing out the symbolism with the direwolves, but they do have to feature a little more if the Bran based shenanigans in books two and three are to make any sense.

 

[itf cho]

I've enjoyed reading these commentaries; and this one was no exception. I'd have to say that the only thing I'm missing from the series is that the portrayal of the timing of events seems shortened. In the series it seems like Ned has only been in Kings Landing about a week or two. However, I noticed the same issues with Martin's books. You have to recall a single comment to know that the journey from Winterfell to King's Landing took two months. So the sense of scale to the seven kingdoms is lost... In the last episode it seemed to only be a journey of a few days from King's Landing to the Eyrie.

However, there is one minor thing you got wrong. The meaning of "Make him fly!" is made readily apparent in the first book, and we should see that explained bluntly enough in the next episode, I'm guessing. However, I don't want to include any spoilers.

But you know what I'm enjoying most about the series? Just the potential of it - should it succeed and run the multiple seasons for all the books - to kick Martin in the butt to finish the novels. The delays between books have been ridiculously long. In fact, I'd have never bothered to come back to the series if not for the HBO adaptation; so perhaps Martin should have licensed his work for free, as it's undoubtedly brought back a lot of his fan base.

 

[Urgol]

I think that Varys loyalty is still vague and obscure. If he truly wanted the Targaryens to rule then why did he tell the council about Daernys unborn child.

 

[Virgil]

Sure, the books strongly suggest something between Loras and Renly, and even then there isn't a firm (heh) confirmation that they were lovers, even though Martin himself said that was his intention. For the show to throw it out there so early seems to miss the opportunity to investigate how such a homosexual relationship was so scandalous back then.

Making him more obviously gay than the books isn't a surprise - they're speeding through a lot of content, so they don't have the freedom to spend a lot of time on subtlety. But did they have to make Renly so much of a simpering whiner? That bothered me, and it doesn't seem to fit the character at all. Hell, if I remember right, Renly was supposed to fight in the tournament.

 

[Simriel]

This is question for people that read the books

1. Varys-Illyrio scene.

In the book Arya sees two dark figures walking trough secret passages. You can vaguely guess one is Varys. But I dont think you can guess second one is Illyrio. Even more - its a key event that is shadowing a secret hand leading the problems in Westeros. And you never really know who these two people are (in the book)

2. Renly - knight of flowers scene

In book there are hints on Renly being homosexual. But there is not even a letter on knight of flowers. Especially not on him having relationship with Renly

3. Varys-Littlefinger scene

The exchange of threats didnt happen in book. Again its hinted that they hate each other.
But here clearly Littlefinger have dominance over Varys , while in book this never happens.




What do you think about these changes ?

I honestly never picked up on Renly or Loras being gay in the book, though Martin has said he intended it I think. Also in the Illyrio/Varys scene, its fairly OBVIOUS that one is Illyrio to me, 9in fact I had a hard time working out the other one was Varys. The exchange between Littlefinger and Varys though was utterly superb, it accurately shows the constant conflict and greater political dance going on between them.

 

[Simriel]

Sure, the books strongly suggest something between Loras and Renly, and even then there isn't a firm (heh) confirmation that they were lovers, even though Martin himself said that was his intention. For the show to throw it out there so early seems to miss the opportunity to investigate how such a homosexual relationship was so scandalous back then.

Making him more obviously gay than the books isn't a surprise - they're speeding through a lot of content, so they don't have the freedom to spend a lot of time on subtlety. But did they have to make Renly so much of a simpering whiner? That bothered me, and it doesn't seem to fit the character at all. Hell, if I remember right, Renly was supposed to fight in the tournament.

Renly is supposed to be a young Robert, in strength and prowess as well as looks, I totally agree. He enjoys fine things, but he is also a capable combatant.

 

[LordOfTheDance]

Easily the best episode so far.

Glad to see them starting to take some liberties to tell the story a little better. *Renly Loras scene and Baelish Varys scene.

Some very good moments in the episode. Particularly Robert yelling at Ned in the small council meeting and the Eeyrie scene was just as disturbing as the book.

My only complaint, and it is a small one, I seem to recall Ned's and Jaime's fight taking place around nightfall in the rain.

 

[Twotricks]

This is question for people that read the books

1. Varys-Illyrio scene.

In the book Arya sees two dark figures walking trough secret passages. You can vaguely guess one is Varys. But I dont think you can guess second one is Illyrio. Even more - its a key event that is shadowing a secret hand leading the problems in Westeros. And you never really know who these two people are (in the book)

2. Renly - knight of flowers scene

In book there are hints on Renly being homosexual. But there is not even a letter on knight of flowers. Especially not on him having relationship with Renly

3. Varys-Littlefinger scene

The exchange of threats didnt happen in book. Again its hinted that they hate each other.
But here clearly Littlefinger have dominance over Varys , while in book this never happens.




What do you think about these changes ?

I honestly never picked up on Renly or Loras being gay in the book, though Martin has said he intended it I think. Also in the Illyrio/Varys scene, its fairly OBVIOUS that one is Illyrio to me, 9in fact I had a hard time working out the other one was Varys. The exchange between Littlefinger and Varys though was utterly superb, it accurately shows the constant conflict and greater political dance going on between them.

In the book.
One of them is probably Varys. But hinted only by his knowledge of secret corridors.
As for second person - there is no way to know who he is. (Because its seen trough Aryas eyes. And she dont know him)

I think the only place its actually revealed is one interview RR.Martin gave.



As for Renly being gay. Its hinted trough whispers in the book.
But nowhere in the book is Loras even hinted as gay (although he has no interest in Sansa, that might be hint enough)

Not that it bothers me, though. Its a good twist to their characters.

Still,

Renly was much grander character in books




And PS

We want more Dire wolves !