Commentary on ?You Win or You Die?

[ElectroJosh]

Ya gotta love Littlefinger. The women practically "fall" for him.

Ha!

I am enjoying the show so far. The extra scenes are usefull in explaining things about the characters a lot of viewers don't know. The Littlefinger training his new workers was a bit pandering but it also gave out important information regarding his history with Catelyn (and the Starks in general) - it also lets people know that Ned wasn't originally the one intended for Cat. The information needed to be made known at some point so that was a good way of doing it.

 

[theevilsanta]

People actually like Littlefinger? The actor looks the part almost perfect, but his acting is so stale I'm not surprised they found it necessary to distract us from his soliloquy with lesbian sex.

Cersei continues to play it cool. I always imagined her coming off a bit "queen of hearts from Alice in Wonderland" even in the beginning. I don't mind it though. This cool and calculating Cersei will make her future insanity more exciting.

Natalie Tena (Osha) is, yet again, terribly miscast. But they love her in the UK so what the fuck.

I'm enjoying Theon's performance and the character building is fun. I just don't get why they're doing so much of it when he's really important in about one-third of one book.

 

[LordOfTheDance]

I'm enjoying Theon's performance and the character building is fun. I just don't get why they're doing so much of it when he's really important in about one-third of one book.

Well he is still one of the more present PoV characters and the main way we know what is going on with Robb and Winterfell related stuff in the books.

 

[pepitko]

When Ned was standing over Robert, I so wanted him to shout "Joffrey is Jaime's son not yours!" but he just stood there regretting the fate of his friend. The episode couldn't have ended on a bigger cliffhanger, damn it, I wish I had a whole season worth of episodes to go through at once.

 

[vonseux]

Loved the episode, still don't think that we needed Little Finger's soliloquy at the beginning.

I actually think we did needed the scene. Those of us that read the book have certain insights to characters because of the author's exposition, but any good TV show or movie has to show you this stuff and not just "tell" it to you, George RR Martin goes through great lengths describing the history behind every influential family in Westeros, but that sort of thing can't be done in the TV show easily.

That scene pretty much just establishes that Littlefinger fought for Catelyn's love against Ned's brother. I'm sure if I hadn't read the book that revelation would make me go "WTF? :-O "

There are many things that those of us who read the book already know about the characters at this point in the story, for example, we know that both Ned and Cate are very dutiful people, which is why they ended up married to each other. When Ned's brother died Cate was duty bound to marry into the Stark house and Ned was duty bound to keep his brother's commitment. Which is why Ned sees Jon Snow as a reminder if him failing his duty, not so much as him betraying the woman he loved (I think love entered that marriage long after Jon).

This and Littlefinger's motives is something that I believe those that are experiencing the story for the first time through the TV show need to know to.

Right, but he could have say all this without two HOT women fingering eachother on the background, couldnt him?

 

[Dash-X]

People actually like Littlefinger? The actor looks the part almost perfect, but his acting is so stale I'm not surprised they found it necessary to distract us from his soliloquy with lesbian sex.

Snip.

I thought that there was something wrong with me. That I was the only person that noticed his acting problem and was bothered by it.

Thank you, theevilsanta.

 

[Greg Tito]

I'm enjoying Theon's performance and the character building is fun. I just don't get why they're doing so much of it when he's really important in about one-third of one book.

Seeding future seasons, methinks. His story in Clash of Kings makes way more sense if they get his character established now.

 

[Glademaster_v1legacy]

Loved the episode, still don't think that we needed Little Finger's soliloquy at the beginning.

I actually think we did needed the scene. Those of us that read the book have certain insights to characters because of the author's exposition, but any good TV show or movie has to show you this stuff and not just "tell" it to you, George RR Martin goes through great lengths describing the history behind every influential family in Westeros, but that sort of thing can't be done in the TV show easily.

That scene pretty much just establishes that Littlefinger fought for Catelyn's love against Ned's brother. I'm sure if I hadn't read the book that revelation would make me go "WTF? :-O "

There are many things that those of us who read the book already know about the characters at this point in the story, for example, we know that both Ned and Cate are very dutiful people, which is why they ended up married to each other. When Ned's brother died Cate was duty bound to marry into the Stark house and Ned was duty bound to keep his brother's commitment. Which is why Ned sees Jon Snow as a reminder if him failing his duty, not so much as him betraying the woman he loved (I think love entered that marriage long after Jon).

This and Littlefinger's motives is something that I believe those that are experiencing the story for the first time through the TV show need to know to.

Right, but he could have say all this without two HOT women fingering eachother on the background, couldnt him?

Well they going for a Spartacus Blood and Sand type thing so the lesbian sex is required.

 

[Kilo24]

It not so much that Ned was being stupid. I'm pretty sure he's smart enough to see that he should have done a few of the suggested courses of action, it's just that he considers them dishonorable and beneath him. Moreover, he doesn't think that he needs to in order to save his own skin, because he's in King's Landing at the express request of and protected by King Robert. He can be as honorable as he wants as long as that's the case, even if everyone else loathes him for it.

After Robert's death, he didn't think that anyone would be so brazen as to openly disregard the King's last words. Or rather, that the minority who would want to would have the clout to do so. That would give him enough time to do the right thing by putting the rightful heir on the throne then wash his hands of the whole sordid business back in Winterfell. He didn't think he needed to play the politician's game, so he let his honor persuade him that it was completely unnecessary and wrong.

He sees the world through a simple lens concerned primarily with honor. He knows it's sometimes flawed (at least where protecting his family is concerned, as we'll see in the coming episodes), but he still clings to it. Even if his own death was certain, he'd still say that it was a choice between self-sacrifice and honor. When given that choice when he went to war, he took the honorable choice, and he's not going to forgo honor to save his own skin now.

 

[nohorsetown]

People actually like Littlefinger? The actor looks the part almost perfect, but his acting is so stale I'm not surprised they found it necessary to distract us from his soliloquy with lesbian sex.

Snip.

I thought that there was something wrong with me. That I was the only person that noticed his acting problem and was bothered by it.

Thank you, theevilsanta.

I third the motion. Littlefinger's an awesome character, but I'm not feeling this actor's delivery. Also, there's enough sex in the books already. HBO is overdoing it, IMO.

@Greg Tito: by the way, in Dune, it's *Baron* Harkonnen, not Duke. The Duke's on the Atreides side.

 

[mechanixis]

Sure, that's what Stark should have done if his goal was to outmaneuver Cersei by any means necessary. But what makes Stark the central pillar of the story so far is the fact that he doesn't give a flying fuck about power and politics - he wants to do the right thing in the most direct way possible.

I have to agree with people saying that Littlefinger's actor is subpar. There's not enough whimsy or suave to his performance. In my head I always imagined a younger Gary Oldman in the role.

 

[ark123]

I hate what's coming up. I loved Ned.

 

[rwege]

Pardon us plebians for just enjoying the media for what it is, a tv show. I haven't read the books yet, because I didnt want to ruin the show with silly preconceptions, but the show needed that little bit of plot exposition if only to remind people of Littlefinger's carefully concealed insidiousness.

We'll see how littlefinger's concealed insidiousness will play out after Ned gets his head cut off in the next episode. If i recall, he doesn't like it, but then again, he also thrives on chaos.

If this seriously happens I hope you break a limb on the way to work for spoiling.

 

[Ne1butme]

If this seriously happens I hope you break a limb on the way to work for spoiling.

For a summation of the plot without much spoiling, head over to Susan Arendt's recap, but if you're a fan of the books and want more in-depth, spoiler-rich discussion of what happens in "You Win or You Die," read on, my friends!

In case that's not crystal clear, there are spoilers in here for both the rest of the TV show and the book series so please, tread carefully if you don't want to know the future events of either.

Deal with it. When you play the Game of Forums, you win or you're spoiled.

 

[Ne1butme]

Pardon us plebians for just enjoying the media for what it is, a tv show. I haven't read the books yet, because I didnt want to ruin the show with silly preconceptions, but the show needed that little bit of plot exposition if only to remind people of Littlefinger's carefully concealed insidiousness.

Spoiler

We'll see how littlefinger's concealed insidiousness will play out after Ned gets his head cut off in the next episode. If i recall, he doesn't like it, but then again, he also thrives on chaos.

Why the hell would you say that? What is wrong with you?!?

Use a spoiler tag.

Spoiler

See response #34

 

[PseudoDuck]

I hate what's coming up. I loved Ned.

Me too. When the final scene of this episode occurs in the book, I had a massive feeling of revulsion because I just knew that it wasn't going to end well for Ned.

I really cannot wait for episode 8, because George R R Martin himself has wrote it and the way the "upcoming event" was handled in the book was strangely subdued.

 

[lleihsad]

I don't think it's as much "honorable vs. dishonorable" as it is "knightly honor vs. mafia honor". The Lannisters strike me as a ruthless mob family with titles, Tywin has an air about him that reminds me of Eastern Promises.

 

[theevilsanta]

You're right, you're right. As well as the other person that commented on my thought on Theon.

After discussing this with my SO it makes sense that they need him to be a well developed character because he's the only link to Winterfell through most of A Clash of Kings.