Communism vs. Capitalism, which is really better?

[Dorkamongus]

Capitalism is perfect. I don't understand why you claim the Bible and God are wrapped up into it. Sounds like Conservative propaganda. The Bible encourages altruism which is much more similar to communism.

I was just using the Bible and God as a metaphor for what people seem to worship.

That said, I'm fully aware that most of my OP is ignorant and silly. Which is why I made it. It's truly interesting to read what other people think, and I'm learning quite a bit.

 

[jomala]

I'd propose an amalgamation of the two systems. I believe everyone, from the richest to the poorest is entitled to a standard of living that constantly changes according to the ability of the country. This should account for things that any country ought to be able to provide for everyone - food, education, healthcare - but it should also encompass items that, despite having 'luxury' status aren't too tough to provide. Ability to receive internet access being an example. I think that any capitalism ought to be regulated and watched at all times, and that 'corporate interests' should be regarded at all times as secondary to human interests. I think that it is also in the best interests of everyone to ensure that a 'living wage' does not mean that you can live off it if you have another two jobs and still will only be able to meet rent, but will actually ensure the recipient can access a reasonable standard of living, with the aim always to be improving what the 'minimum' standard of living is. I think that income taxes should be enforced widely, because there's simply nobody alive that needs four yachts, and that wasted money could be better used elsewhere. There's having an opulent standard of living and then there's just being silly, honestly.

I'll admit I dislike capitalism, but I'm not naive enough to believe that with human society the way it is, communism will work. Maybe in the future, not right now.

Socialism, in other words, as practised in Sweden and Canada, for example (to cite to of the countries that tend to head the "Standard of Living" league tables) and in fact most of Europe at one time or other in the last 50 years. It's even not far off the US system, just a long way from its use in practice, so far as I can see.

 

[Dorkamongus]

I disagree. In communism, the only value is existence. because you draw breath, you deserve the same as every other human who draws breath. You don't have to do anything, not even participate in life. Capitalism, however, embraces achievement by rewarding success(in theory) and therefore celebrates the struggle of life, not simply the monotony of existence.
I was going to quote some choice lines from "Faith of The Fallen" which is a book which examines communism, and the true ideals behind it(among other ideologies) in great detail. But I don't feel like searching for the quote I was looking for. Just read the "Sword of Truth" series by Terry Goodkind. It's amazing and has a great many very important ideas that I guarantee will challenge the way you look at the world, which is always a good thing. However, I will quote one thing, the most important line in the entire book: "Your life is yours alone, rise up and live it." Ultimately, communism is the decision to relegate responsibility and importance to the community, not the individuals who comprise it. I can never agree with that, a society can have no meaning beyond the individuals it is built upon. Every person should be responsible for their own life. they should not be handed success, without even having the possibility of facing the consequences of their decisions. Only when a person is allowed to suffer the consequences of his mistakes, can he fully enjoy the benefits of his successes. That's my opinion anyway.

Oh right! I have read that series, and I get what your saying.
I just didn't really think about that book in that way... but it's interesting, thanks for bringing it up.

 

[DenSomKastade]

Neither is better than the other it's all about management and how good the goverement is. It's best if they are mixed together.

 

[Dorkamongus]

I'm pretty sure you don't know what either communism, free market capitalism (actually you describe it here a little bit), state capitalism or state communism is.

Your right, I don't really know... which is one of the big reasons why I started this thread.
I guess I just got tired of people throwing out around me "Ooooh! Communism is horrible! Capitalism is the only thing that will save your soul!" When it's fairly obvious that they know even less than I do.
Plus, this is a faster way to learn about government systems than just taking a college class for it .

 

[jomala]

Capitalism because it mirrors nature. Competition.

Civilization is about rising above nature.

Ever tempted to believe that we're too civilized? Most people are at some point, but they haven't thought it through. I don't believe there's ever been an anarchic paradise.

That said, here's a new analogy for you: communism is like high-school, socialism is like university, naked capitalism is like work. I had fun in each, but I'd have to say that uni probably shades the others. I suspect that others have stronger opinions. Do they match your political outlook?

 

[Dorkamongus]

Can't really be arsed to get involved in this, but I'll just point out that Capitalism is an economic system, not a political structure.

And God has nothing to do with Capitalism, that's just an American thing.

I was not aware of that, and that was one of the major reasons why I made this topic: to learn just what they are, and what people think about them.

 

[TheNewDemoman]

Communism is fine on paper. Problem is people don't work as hard knowing that the guy that does absolitely nothing gets payed the same amount.
Capitalism in my opinion is better, because you are only limited by the amount you are willing to work, the government does not "cap" your paycheck

 

[ChaoticKraus]

I think it's fairly clear by this point that communism have never worked in practice.

Also, China is not communistic. It was an absolute miserable country until they introduced capitalism and now, a couple of decades later, they are on top of the world.

Really, in a society of individuals with a monetary system capitalism is the only thing that makes sense.

 

[Sethzard]

Communism means that people don't work towards anything and have no real incentive to do anything, also, humans are too easily corruptible.Also, it's ridiculous to think that a poet who does very little actual 'work' gets paid the same as a doctor.
Capitalism knows what humans are like, and plays on their natural greed to keep the market regulated.

 

[jomala]

Communism is fine on paper. Problem is people don't work as hard knowing that the guy that does absolitely nothing gets payed the same amount.
Capitalism in my opinion is better, because you are only limited by the amount you are willing to work, the government does not "cap" your paycheck

But we do not all have the same capital. I appreciate that it provides the incentive for everyone to work, and to gain money as efficiently as possible, which has lots of positive benefits. However, in parallel, some are wielding vast influence, moving the goalposts and earning stacks of money from just having capital that most of us can never attain. Money breeds and multiplies - and generally those who have it get lots more, and those who don't struggle to increase their capital at all. That might be fine, if those with capital have earned it by proving they know better how to invest it than others, but they rarely have.

 

[jomala]

Really, in a society of individuals with a monetary system capitalism is the only thing that makes sense.

I think you lack imagination. Either that or you've spent a lot of time analysing the alternatives but haven't shown your workings!

 

[TheNewDemoman]

Communism is fine on paper. Problem is people don't work as hard knowing that the guy that does absolitely nothing gets payed the same amount.
Capitalism in my opinion is better, because you are only limited by the amount you are willing to work, the government does not "cap" your paycheck

But we do not all have the same capital. I appreciate that it provides the incentive for everyone to work, and to gain money as efficiently as possible, which has lots of positive benefits. However, in parallel, some are wielding vast influence, moving the goalposts and earning stacks of money from just having capital that most of us can never attain. Money breeds and multiplies - and generally those who have it get lots more, and those who don't struggle to increase their capital at all. That might be fine, if those with capital have earned it by proving they know better how to invest it than others, but they rarely have.

You are right those that have money usually keep it.
The good thing about capitalism though is that the poor people if they have enough drive can at least move themselves up a peg to middle class, and then maybe their children can move them to riches. Usually, it should be a church or charity's job to help with this but (different topic)


Communism puts everyone on the same level, regardless of their gifts. I am a gifted speaker, but in a communist society the government would give me a job in a factory.

However, I think one day we will be able to create a communist society that will hold

 

[Faine']

Communism. I think. Whilst it certainly hasn't worked out in the past, that seems to be due to leaders that have completely screwed it all up. You could argue that this would only happen time and time again, but I like to be optimistic.

Ideally, I'd rather have something like this, though: http://www.thevenusproject.com/

 

[Exterminas]

Geeez, what a question.

Please define "Communism" and "Capitalism" both are abstract philosophies of state priorities, not concrete systems.

Then "better"
Please define better.

Better in regards to what maxime? Which suits human nature? (please define human nature) Better for who? Better when? Now or in the past? Better for future generations? Better in regards to mankind as a whole? Better for peace within mankind? Or better for technological progress?

There is no absolute "better". As always with systems there isn't a perfect answer. It all comes down to who you are, where you life and what you want.

 

[jomala]

Capitalism because it mirrors nature. Competition.

Civilization is about rising above nature.

Well, no, civilization is merely about living together whilst eating jam and avoiding bashing each others faces in with shovels as best as possible. Systems which mirror patterns found in nature are generally far, far more effective and efficient.

I don't agree with this. Wheels work pretty well. Companies and armies with more than one level of heirarchy have proven pretty effective. And I could probably name a dozen more things for which your response would be "what about ants" despite the fact that I can't think of a closer analogy for communism.

And I reckon a gang of chimps with provided with shovels and jam wouldn't all get to eat the jam.

Humans have risen above nature, and can rise a lot further. (It's not necessarily making us happier of course, but I believe that it can.)

 

[Lyx]

Both are flawed on their own. Communism is unflexible and ignores that there are things that shouldn't be egalitarian (humans are not all equal) - but for conditions where not much flexibility is needed, and egalitarism is desirable, it does things that capitalism will never ever be able to do. Most importantly: Communism allows something that capitalism is incapable of modelling: Situations where less workforce is needed than products.

Capitalism on the other hand ignores that humans are not bank accounts, is prone to go out of balance because it has no reliable caps that stop it from going nuts. On the upside, nothing can deal better with high dynamicity and encourage improvement.

Capitalism (with caps) does what communism cannot do, and communism does what capitalism cannot do. But people are so stuck in a dualistic worldview, that they do not realize how complementary both are.

The only thing that is mostly useless in an optimum economy (mostly, because there are fringe cases, where it is needed), is socialism. That is because socialism is a patch, not a fix. It is there to patch leaks of an economy and society. Of course, there will always be holes - things that cannot work completely selfsustained with a balanced budget - which is why some degree of socialism will always be necessary - but make no mistake, it never solves any problems - it just says "well, bummer, looks like we'll all have to shoulder the burden that this thing leaks".

 

[ChaoticKraus]

Really, in a society of individuals with a monetary system capitalism is the only thing that makes sense.

I think you lack imagination. Either that or you've spent a lot of time analysing the alternatives but haven't shown your workings!

I'm not sure i understand what you mean. I have studied the socio-economic aspects of communism quite well since i was very left-leaning in my early teens. If we are to be practical, which you should be when it comes to running your state, i haven't seen one instance where communism or any other economic system has worked better than capitalism.

 

[Woodsey]

Can't really be arsed to get involved in this, but I'll just point out that Capitalism is an economic system, not a political structure.

And God has nothing to do with Capitalism, that's just an American thing.

I was not aware of that, and that was one of the major reasons why I made this topic: to learn just what they are, and what people think about them.

Ah, well that's good then. A lot of people do get them mixed up, and often they're posed as being each other's opposite.

I guess the best explation would be that if you had a political spectrum labelled -10 to 10 (-10 being Communism) then Capitalism can be in place in some form from, say, -8 to 10, if that makes sense.

Look at China, for example.