Conflict Minerals and the Game Industry: The Problem

RhombusHatesYou

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Mar 21, 2010
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Between There and There.
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The Wide, Brown One.
Blablahb said:
How do we westerns make changes to a remote foreign locale?
Well the traditional method is to give financial and material backing to one specific group in the region, sit back, ignore the carnage, and reap the cut price resources.

There's also the option of invasion and installing a friendly puppet government (because who'd install an unfriendly puppet government?). If this puppet government turns out to be a kleptocratic junta... well, you can't make an omlette without executing a few hostages.

You could also organise a large celebrity event to raise public awareness and generate enough funds to pay for all the celebrities and media types. 10c from every DVD of the event sold could be donated to an organisation dedicated to keeping the public aware.

There's a radical school of thought that puts forward the best way to address the situation is to increase the demand for minerals to a point where they're all mined out of the region in question within 20 years and all the local thugs and warlords and corrupt officials retire wealthy and take up golf.
 

KingGolem

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CrossLOPER said:
You feel that it is in your rights to support such an industry because you want electronic trinkets that do not in any way aid in your survival.
Why do you keep bringing up this "rights" issue? You are making no sense at all. You say that I feel entitled to these things, but I say, no, I just want them. Then you say that I "feel that it is in my rights to support such an industry." Why? How do you make the leap from desire to entitlement?

CrossLOPER said:
You feel that you can profit from this type of activity unrestrained, to the point where you do not face legal consequences. These types of industries lead to warlords acquiring weaponry and expanding their operations. The cash flow from these minerals is very high. It can be used by anyone who seizes control or partakes in the aid of the flow. Terrorist groups, for instance.
It seems to me that the factions of the Congo are preoccupied with controlling the mines, rather than destroying Western civilization. They're channeling all their savagery against each other, thus keeping each other in check. Further, it appears that their motivation here is simple greed, rather than religious zealotry. If one faction were to take over the Congo, I think they'd just keep on working the mines, shipping out the minerals, and living like princes. Maybe commit a genocide or two against whatever other barbarian tribes they don't like. It seems rather unlikely that they would turn against America, when it is our demand for electronics that makes their minerals valuable. If they were to become a hotbed for terrorist activity, they might find themselves slapped with sanctions, undermining the source of their power. So in this case, no, I'm not worried about the scenario you mentioned. If it does come up, however, our military is nevertheless abundantly prepared to deal with it.

CrossLOPER said:
Surely being a potential target in one way or another, directly or indirectly is against your notion "self-interest"?
Now this is interesting. What is your objective at this point? It seems that you went from lecturing me on the importance of humanitarian ideals in society to thinking of potential drawbacks to the exploitation of the Congolese. Are you trying to convince me to care for my fellow human beings, or that exploiting the Congo is uneconomical?
 

DjinnFor

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My opinion on the topic has already been stated:

Blablahb said:
Which shows this is not a western problem, or a trade problem, it's a local problem, and a problem of what's normal in that locale. The problem must therefore be adressed by chances to the locale.

How do we westerns make changes to a remote foreign locale? Uh... we pretty much can't, since we neither run the country nor make it's culture.
Basically ^this.

Callate said:
The Congo, ladies and gentlemen: viable evidence that Adam Smith's "invisible hand" don't correct bupkus.
...Not really.

(Going to ignore the double negative there)

Devoneaux said:
The invisible hand oddly enough, only really works in capitalist markets, not Laissez-faire systems.
Congo is not a Laissez-faire system. Most of the perpetrators of the violence established in the article are members of the Congolese army. Congo is more appropriately described as Fascist given the size of it's army relative to everything else it's government does.

So of course the invisible hand isn't working perfectly there; it was never argued that it would do so.

KingGolem said:
Sounds like Objectivism that got hijacked by moral nihilism halfway through to the conclusion. I hope you know that the latter does not necessarily follow from the former.
 

Callate

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DjinnFor said:
Callate said:
The Congo, ladies and gentlemen: viable evidence that Adam Smith's "invisible hand" don't correct bupkus.
...Not really.

(Going to ignore the double negative there)
Implying your superiority by "ignoring" a double negative in a commonly recognized colloquialism, even while dismissing the statement out of hand. How "gracious".

In the narrow sense, Smith stated that in the preference of an individual to support domestic industry over foreign, he inadvertently served the public interest even while solely intending to serve "his own security". "...He intends only his own gain; and he is in this, as in many other cases, led by an invisible hand to promote an end which was no part of his intention."

In the broader sense- in which Smith in general and the "invisible hand" statement in particular is cited by economists of various stripes- Smith implies that merchants often serve the public good by trying to serve their own, and that outside attempts to regulate those same "assume an authority which could safely be trusted, not only to no single person, but to no council or senate whatever, and which would nowhere be so dangerous as in the hands of a man who had folly and presumption enough to fancy himself fit to exercise it." And further: "If the produce of domestic can be brought there as cheap as that of foreign industry, the regulation is evidently useless. If it cannot, it must generally be hurtful."

In the DRC, a lack of regulation has led to children being used in mines to extract valuable minerals (among other conditions, some explained in the article) which most would consider to be harmful to the society. A worldwide tolerance for and unwillingness to regulate these conditions- whether through embargo, sanctions, or other means- allows the Congo to persist as simply the least expensive provider of those materials. The "merchants" in this case are supporting an economy which is destructive of their security- whether they're the people mining in unsafe conditions, those packing the ore to the markets and risking assault for their valuable cargo, or merely the exporters whose work funnels money to all sides of never-ending violence in their back yard.

Ergo, as I stated in a rather more flippant fashion, it would appear the so-called "invisible hand" could be said to have failed to create self-regulation in what- however ugly- might be construed a "market".

It is, of course, an open question whether people would be better off, especially in the short term, if the trade in conflict minerals were eradicated; if, for example, children would cease being slave miners only to return to being child soldiers. If less money for guns would also mean less money for food. And beyond that, if it is even within the realm of feasibility for those outside the country to act in such a way as to create predictable change within it, especially given its long history of conflict.

But to say something is an "open question" is far from saying it's a rhetorical one. And I will be interested to hear what the second part of the article has to say on that matter.
 

ThunderCavalier

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Personally, I'm really interested about this article. Something as small as the materials needed to produce everday electronics is something so negligible that even the most perceptive person would probably miss it, and yet it's built on this extremely reprehensible and backwards system that clearly shows its age in morality and efficiency.

Also, because it's the big elephant in the room.

KingGolem said:
... I don't feel like commenting on your opinion, because nothing I say is going to convince you otherwise. Either you're an extremely efficient troll, or someone that I never want to meet in real life. They're your opinions, and while I may not agree with them, I respect them.

Can we end this argument now? We've reached the two extremes of morality here, and nothing one guy says is gonna convince the other.
 

Aardvaarkman

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Jul 14, 2011
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Robert Rath said:
According to a New York Times article from 2008, a rogue unit of the Congolese Army made $300,000 to $600,000 a month in illegal taxes from holding a tin mine, and may have made as much as $80 million a year. The money buys guns, political influence, and ultimately power. With such unimaginable sums of money to be had, most militias have abandoned their political aims to focus on exploiting the land and their laborers.
How is $80 million per year an "unimaginable" sum of money? Companies routinely post numbers much larger than that for annual profits, losses, or revenue. It's not just imaginable, it's easily calculated.
 

Aardvaarkman

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Jul 14, 2011
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Nurb said:
Apple users and wal-mart shoppers have proven child labor, poisioned by working conditions, are acceptable as long as customers can't see them.
Uh, why mention those two companies in particular? The issue applies to almost any electronics manufacturer. It's not as if other companies use magic exploitation-free components made from pixie dust.
 

Keith_F

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KingGolem said:
CrossLOPER said:
Let us be clear then. What sort of "personal consequences" do you fear that prevent you from behaving in a morally reprehensible manner? Prison time? Your conscience? What?
In civilized countries, legal prosecution, including prison time, is the main deterrent to "morally reprehensible" behavior, as you call it. In lawless, savage lands like the Congo, there is still the potential for retribution. Opposing factions constantly war with one another, and serving for one means becoming a target for all the others.
You failed to address his question. It is true that prison time and legal prosecution is the deterrent to immoral behaviour in western society. The question was what do you fear that prevents you from behaving in a morally reprehensible manner. Do you fear prison? If so, why?
 

KingGolem

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Keith_F said:
You failed to address his question. It is true that prison time and legal prosecution is the deterrent to immoral behaviour in western society. The question was what do you fear that prevents you from behaving in a morally reprehensible manner. Do you fear prison? If so, why?
I thought it was self evident: prison sucks. I don't want to go to prison, or pay a fine, or be sentenced to community service, or whatever else, because they are unpleasant. If I am to maximize personal benefit, avoiding legal prosecution is the way to go.
 

secretkeeper12

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Just a development related to this story: Fairphone [http://www.fairphone.com/] is a recent company founded last year that manufactures its smartphones using audited mines in Uganda, Rwanda and the Democratic Republic of the Congo. Their work reallu shows how fair, safe, and humane working conditions can be made reality for Africa's poorest.

Check out their on-the-grounds investigation!

http://www.fairphone.com/2014/10/02/research-trip-visiting-tin-tantalum-and-tungsten-mines/