Console Gaming

ranger19

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Nov 19, 2008
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Wow - three of the most entertaining and illuminating minds on the 'net talking about the things they and I love. It's like watching all your favorite sports teams and players at the same time... and having everybody win!

How did nobody think of this before?!
 

Jmurray21

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Feb 7, 2011
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I defiantly agree with Yahtzee. The standard controller feels, to me, like i'm more immersed in the game. I think to myself ill move to cover here then pop up and shoot requires limited motion when using the simply press a to enter cover then hold left trigger and shoot with right trigger seems more logical. It, for a start, doesn't need as much brain power. It's easier to relax on the couch with a standard controller then having to preform the movements. By brain power I don't mean it makes you an idiot or anything like but it's easier to become fully involved in a story when you don't have to think about the action required to preform a task.
The brain power should go into thinking about the game itself and not the controls.

I also agree with James. The market of motion control has potential but i don't think it has enough. The kinect (not being a fan boy, I don't have a kinect) most likely has the most potential. The camera is a great idea. I read in a magazine article about the kinect when it was originally called project natal (E3 2009). They said imagine coming home to have your Xbox recognize you. It says hello and how was work. It then asks are you ready to get on live and play Battlefield and how your Xbox kindly downloaded the new map pack for you.
a situation like that is what I call potential. That's AI technology but a new advancement that could change gaming forever. Yet it all started with a simple motion camera.
 

ChupathingyX

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Jun 8, 2010
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Yahtzee said:
My body is free to relax on the couch while my mind goes off to save the universe.
I agree 100% with this statement. It's the reason I've never liked motion gaming, I've been through a whole day of school, I want to relax, flailing around is not relaxing.
 

Klepa

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I absolutely agree with the notion that gaming is collapsing under it's own weight. 15 years ago, it was perfectly possible for a bunch of dudes to create a playable, fun, "AAA" experience from scratch. Up until 2009, Super Mario Bros was the best selling video game EVER, and it was made by ten guys.

Nowadays an AAA title, even a fairly simple sequel, like a new CoD game, will take loads of money, time, and effort. You can't just have a good idea, a few friends and lots of coffee anymore. You need investors, publishers, marketing, legal advisors, and a good few years. If you decide to code your own graphics engine, get ready to push the release back at least a year.

I think it's most noticeable on the PC. Games are getting rushed, their release versions are sometimes hideously bugged, even unplayable. MMO's are the worst offenders, often getting released way ahead of schedule, riddled with bugs, and lacking enormous amounts of content. "We shall patch it later", say the devs, while scraping the last two coins from the bottom of the money jar.

The industry will grow bigger and bigger, production values reach new heights, especially as technology advances. I'll be amused to see whether or not we'll reach a point where every AAA title will take 10 years, and 500 million dollars, to make. Or will the bubble burst before that, leaving us with current indie devs, who will either lead us to a new land, or start the cycle again?
 

GrizzlerBorno

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This is awesome stuff. But it ended at the best part! I was hoping to see MovieBob's Re-Rebuttal to Yahtzee's last mail. :(

Oh well, can't look a Gift horse in the mouth. If I could.....I would ask to have them all flown to North Carolina to have a Super Special Live stream event. That'd be ridiculously swell.
 

Necrodin

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Dec 24, 2008
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What a great idea, my three favorite escapist contributers having a debate. Maybe those 5 should start their own game company?
 

Probster

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Feb 13, 2011
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?Beautiful. Could not agree more with Yahtzee about the Wii remote controls. All they've ever done is hurt my wrist and frustrate me. But playing with an Xbox or Playstation controller means little to no physical distraction from the immersion you're trying to experience.?

I do not particularly enjoy the flailing of the Wii remote when it is out of context, but I have seldom had any occurrence in my gaming history where I wasn't enjoying the Wii remote. My guess it is my flexibility that enables me to elude this problem. This is not what I wanted to talk about though.

I want to talk about how the POINTER is amazing. I rarely play any games on the Wii that don?t require a pointer in some sense. Elebits is an enjoyable game for example. The already mentioned Metroid Prime Series well although great and I have played all 3 only the last one was on the Wii I didn't buy the whole series again just for motion controls although I wonder if it is good.

Yahtzee is right, insofar that he believes games are forced to include a "Random Wii Waggling Mote Move". Yeah but as I mentioned before I never had a problem with this. His talk on 1-to-1 interface I couldn?t agree with more (the being the best way to interact with a game). Here are my thoughts: Although gaming controllers like the Gamecube Controller and Classic Pro are very much more standard controls with their style and ability to be closely interactive, I think being able to place a cursor that allows you to turn is far superior to the analog stick. Seriously, when I would try to play Golden-Eye or Black Ops, I just could not use those controls; they are just too unfocused and unspecific. I like the fluidity of the pointing.

Now I have played the entire call of duty series available on the Wii plus the Big Red One on the Gamecube, as have I played the entire Metroid Prime Series. I have got to say, Motion Controls are great, if we only speak on ?pointers? otherwise? It gets messier. I do really like the reloading is required by hitting the nunchuck. This was particularly effective in playing RE: Umbrella Chronicles and HOD: Overkill. I played RE4 on both systems: GCN and Wii and it were much better on the Wii.

I particularly enjoyed slapping the back of the Wii Zapper in Umbrella Chronicles, God that was fun! Smack. Also I loved tossing the zapper in between turns and the fact that I had 2 of them made it awesome to dual wield them. There is a lot of stability in that. You can snipe so much easier in Black Ops with a Zapper but the controls are all shit so don?t bother using it (unless you want to).

You know what game I really liked that I don?t have any more: Wii Play. The tank section was great to play with my cousin but aside from that. The shooting aspect was so much fun using 2 remotes. I was coordinated enough to do it. Lots of fun to be had using 2 remotes. I really imagine using them while playing zombies on the Black Ops, but it?s a bummer. They should use that more.

Also why is it that the Wii always gets the stripped down versions?! Sonic Unleashed: Stripped Down from the PS3 version (from what I could tell on looking a friend of mine). Also Force Unleashed: Stripped Down from the PS3 Version that I could see from same friend. Why? COD WAW never had the zombie feature; COD BO has 1 level, that?s it. So when I hear people (Yahtzee) talk about it I think, gee sure wish that was true and was the case for me. Examples: In sonic you don?t get to walk through the over world it?s just menu based, wow was really looking forward to that. In force unleashed when you stop the giant ship: also looking for it never saw it. Yeah it gets me too how I always seem to catch the best parts at that one friend?s house right?

You know Yahtzee was right, the party-aspect of games like GH3, GH4, RB1 and Wii Sports / Resort and others that I can?t think of at the moment are definitely the target audience of it. Its way fun to play these games in big groups but their single player is lacking a lot.

On a side note, I watched the Oscars for the first time just to see how right MovieBob really was. Wow. Spot On fella save maybe a few (but who?s counting?).

?I'm putting my foot down. You've officially put too much awesome in one place on the internet. Turn back now before the can of worms is completely open! AAAAAAAGH!
OT: I really do like this kind of open discussion. It reads like a really intelligent, quite insightful forum debate, and I approve. Now, if this kind of civility could infect forums everywhere....?

I should also note that these three people all coming together to talk is awesome, wow, this is definitely a combination like no other. I am so Grateful for this combination.

James, and the Extra Credits Crew, How do we demand for better games? The last one I bought was COD BO because well I haven?t? had the money to buy any other ones yet. Oh I should mention I?ve been playing a lot of Dungeon Explorer Recently. It?s so messed up all the facts people have posted on the walkthroughs and such they don?t have any numbers. So I?ve been working on numbers for the spells and formulas and time trials for running speed Its looking nice but I have a feeling it might be wasted.

This reminds me of when I made my own guide for the Obscure: Aftermath game. That was a nice game, about the only horror game I played save SH: Shattered Memories. That had really nice atmosphere, how come it felt short and why weren?t there co-op or shooting aspects, oh well, that?s horror for you. Obscure was great by the way, played that game twice, the stuff after the credits is nuts, how long is that game (laugh out loud).

This whole business with FPS Shooters coming off the unreal engine, I guess is sad? I really enjoyed Unreal tournament 2003 Demo, 2004 and III. The game is very fun to play and the maps were very nicely made. Vehicle Combat is a blast. Man I haven?t? played them in a while, I should pull it back out.

As for Real Time Strategy Games, YAHTZEE, Don?t review SC2, just play through the single-player parts, the campaign and the challenges and try out the User-Map-Settings Games. I don?t have any record against other players on my account because I don?t like playing the RTS part of the game. The single player is great Last time I played I was toward the end, last mission I think on hard mode. Playing it for the Third time by the way last time I was though.

Man Warcraft 3 is probably my favorite game even though I don?t play it. I spent so much time making maps. God the RTS factor of it, not at all never was very fun. BUT all those maps I made so many years of them I enjoyed making them a lot. Starcraft Brood War was good too though but not as good map wise. SC2 I?ve dabbled but not as extensively into the map making as I have in the past. Starcraft 64 was fun.

I never did have any good games for the N64. No Ocarina of Time, No Golden-Eye, ANY Banjo Kazoo, any Starfox, Etc. I did play Gauntlet so scratch that first statement I guess. You know what good games were: Geist, Resident Evil 4, Super Smash Brothers Brawl, Metroid Prime 1 and 2, Gauntlet Dark Legacy, Phantasy Star Online Episodes 1 AND 2. Melee I meant, not brawl. I have Brawl now, still. I t was a decent game; we don?t play it anymore though.

?I approve of this.
Please make this weekly! :)?

?Good read, does this mean we're getting more of this..??

Totally, Make it weekly, Mondays we have the collaboration of these guys and their blogs, what else are they up to the rest of their lives? [Ha I kid, I know they have lives] It would be a joy to read these columns on a weekly basis.

Do you guys know if Yahtzee ever played Luigi?s mansion? I heard it was awesome. Twilight Princess was fun, the Shooter for it was too, I really enjoyed the Ranger missions those were great fun to be all crazy macho like gunning people down while moving, and it was one of those things where they hadn?t done of a lot of it yet on the Wii. Move and shoot stuff. You know what I liked Red Steel better than Red Steel 2. I think it was the story mostly, that and it had multiplayer. Oh it was the locations too, that creepy amusement park-ish level starting in the cabin and stuff that was a fun level.

This reminds me of Travis Touchdown in No More Heroes, a game I borrowed once, Good game. I liked the story. I liked how the second time around was a little different: Different cards to collect, A new final boss, but yeah Kind of wish they would make a Grand Theft Auto for the Wii I played it at the house of the guy I borrowed the No more heroes from. Half an hour of one chase with multiple cars and it was crazy fun. Sandboxes are great aren?t they?

I should rap up with saying that I thought the creativity peak of last generation might just be true. Bummer right dude?
 

Rad Party God

Party like it's 2010!
Feb 23, 2010
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I mostly agreed with Bob in the sense that the Wiimote and motion controls have a lot of wasted potential and I was thinking the exact same example, Metroid Prime Trilogy have the very best FPS controls for the system, going back to moving Samus with a single stick while I have to press down a specific button to "aim" was pretty archaic at best.

With Prime Trilogy, instead of having a button pressed, you just simply move your wrist to whatever direction you want, you still have lock-on feature, but that's useful for harder battles. Also, the visor/weapon changing system was pretty nifty with the Cube controller; it's even better with the Wiimote. Just press a button, move your cursor to either up, left or right, I loved it.

Yahtzee have some good points too, but I agreed mostly to MovieBob.
 

XMark

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Jan 25, 2010
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I think I agree with a bit of each of the three when it comes to motion controls.

Yes, motion controls CAN make an experience more involving, and make it more satisfying when you beat your opponent or accomplish your goal.

But I agree with Yahtzee about general waves causing your onscreen avatar to perform skilled moves. It just doesn't work. ESPECIALLY when your attempt at making a certain gesture fails or executes another gesture entirely

I'm specifically thinking about The Fight: Lights Out. Excellent one-to-one tracking of the fists (and I suppose the head tracking would be great if I had a freakin' bluescreen behind me or something) but the game totally falls flat on its face requiring you to do specific gestures for a ton of special moves, which it will misread 80% of the time. Unfortunately, the controls for one-to-one movement can't be used for anything more accurate than flailing your arms about.
 

sir.rutthed

Stormfather take you!
Nov 10, 2009
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Good lord. Nothing makes me feel more intelligent than listening to intelligent people talk about something very technical in an intelligent way, and this convo did that trick quite well. These three are some of my favorite people on the internet, and having them all in one place is a nerd dream come true. Keep it coming, Escapist. Bravo.
 

RTR

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Mar 22, 2008
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This is so awesome!!! I've always imagined something like this SHOULD happen.

Will this column be weekly? Bi-weekly?
 

CrazyCapnMorgan

Is not insane, just crazy >:)
Jan 5, 2011
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Oh man, I'm excited to read more! I don't mind if they have the same line-up or if they mix it up with different people. I agreed mainly with Yahtzee, but James and Moviebob also managed to bring up some excellent points about gaming in general. Although, if I ever got a complete neural interface device, I would totally live in the fantasy world because the real world sucks tremendous elephant testicles.

In conclusion, I would totally mail pizzas and drinks to both the creators of this idea and the people making the debates every single week if it meant I got to see more of this. BTW, I live in the US of A so do expect the food to take a little while to get there... >.>
 

Kingjackl

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Nov 18, 2009
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It's rare that I prefer Moviebob to Yahtzee in any situation,but the latter's little spiel about motion controls at the hand just makes him seem quite pathetic. How the hell is a Wiimote waggle 'physical exertion'? Why is 'virtual reality' the prefferable alternative to 'fun little motion-control device'?

If they did invent some sort of Matrix-style neural computer, all it takes is for Blizzard to say 'ooh, that might work well with World of Warcraft' and then we're all truly fucked.

Apart from that, itg was a quite interesting discussion and I look forward to more.
 

NaramSuen

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Jun 8, 2010
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ReiverCorrupter said:
There is a diochotomy underlying this debate that Yahtzee just touched upon lightly in his last reply:

The division between a 'GAME' and 'VIRTUAL REALITY'

In a game, the gamer is conscious of the fact that he is controlling the avatar. In virtual reality the gamer IS THE AVATAR. Now granted we haven't really seen virtual reality yet, but that's exactly what the Wii is moving towards. Why go to the gym to play racquetball when you can do it in your own home. In this scenario, the gamer REALLY IS playing a VIRTUAL VERSION of racquetball, NOT a SIMULATION of racquetball.

Will VR kill normal gaming? I don't think so. People who play Star Craft are still going to play Star Craft. They're conscious that they're playing a game, and furthermore, they don't care about feeling like they're "in the action," quite the opposite in fact.

Thus I see the gaming community going in two directions. One will the the VR simulators for casual gamers that will be part of the family entertainment system (i.e. it will also provide netflix, TiVo, internet, all connected throughout the house). The hardcore games will come on consoles.

PC gaming will be die because the PC will die. Well... it won't die, it'll just be spread throughout the house. The PC gamers will just move over to consoles, and the console will probably have keyboard accessories etc, so it'll work more or less like a PC.

The consoles will really be attachments to the integrated home system, that allows one to use it for the more hardcore games.

TL;DR version: technology will integrate such the lines between hardware will blur completely, thus making the terms 'PC' and 'Console' rather obsolete.

Those are my predictions.
I think that you have eloquently put something into words that has been bouncing around my skull ever since the Wii came out. Part of the Wii's success is due to the fact that it is selling virtual reality experiences, not necessarily "video game" experiences. I think that there has been a significant portion of the population waiting for games to deliver just such an experience and then can get something approaching it on the Wii.

However, just as you see the PC getting swallowed up into an as-of-yet-unnamed much larger integrated system, I see no reason that consoles would not go this route as well. If the PC will get reduced to a keyboard, then what is stopping the console from being reduced to a controller? If download-only becomes the standard medium of the gaming industry, then a physical console no longer makes any practical sense.
 

metal mustache

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Oct 29, 2009
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I like having a cursor on the screen as well, thats one less analog stick i have to fidel with, allowing me to hit a more different button. But shaking the controller is stupid! I have to shake it so hard I can't hit any of the buttons on it, and my wii is always so slow on the up take because of how much shaking it needs! If it weren't for those issuses I would like it too, because you can execute alot more actions in the game if you have those options, and then the games are made even more difficult in a good way, vs the bad way where the actions are just made harder meaning the game needs to be simpler.
 

Meatman

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Oct 28, 2009
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Valagetti said:
Hands up who fully agrees with Yahtzee, yet again.
*Raises hand*

Was a really interesting read, and it was a enjoyable, intelligent discussion too. Rare thing on the escapist :p
 

qeinar

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Jul 14, 2009
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I agree with yhatze on the controller shake thingy, in a fps game iif i could remap the controller to not use the shake i would do that in a heartbeat, becuase shaking the controller takes longer time than pressing a button. having played donkey kong country i didn't like shaking the controller, it did nothing for me and i'd rather they used a button for it instead.

while i can see it work in some games, in a fps game i think we are far off from a better solution than a mouse and keyboard. (while some might say the would like an analouge instead of the keyboard i find it kinda wierd since i can move exactly how i want in any fps game, but that's just me..) oh and i also finished super meat boy both with a keyboard and a controller, and my keyboard time is better. (did it once on pc and once on xbox)