Controversial discussion: justifiability in rape

[DevilWithaHalo]

Those that are specifically coming in this thread to demonize me for suggesting discussion in such a morally reprehensible act can save it. *ANY* personal remarks towards me in *ANY* way, shape or form will be reported and ignored. In fact, *ANY* personal remark made toward *ANY* person at all in this thread will be reported and ignored. Either you can discuss this in a mature fashion or you can rage elsewhere.

This thread serves two discussions (for which caused my initial need to post this). First, the contradictory stance that all morality and ethics are entirely subjective while the act of rape is always deserving of condemnation. Secondly, that rape cannot be justified in any case whatsoever regardless of any possible results.

So, here are the rules...

1. Discuss the views of moral and ethical subjectivity/objectivity with whatever system which personally governs you. Ex; you gain your views from scripture, TV or your parents, etc.

2. Using the above, how this dictates your perceptions on the act of rape, how you believe others should view it, and how you compare your moral and ethical values against alternative positions.

3. Consider a specific circumstance where a beneficial result occurred from the act of rape (whether direct or indirect) and/or how a more serious/damaging result would have occurred without it.

Discussion alternatives; how any type of bad situation can lead to good results. How the discussion value changes when morality and ethics are exchange for mathematical values associated with outcomes (example, more of X happens, or X doesn't happen at all).

Discussion caveats; this assumes we know the outcome of said rape after the fact, regardless of a contradictory stance of universally subjective morality. We undertstand and accept that no detrimental act can be justified prior to action without knowing the most accurate consequence. IE; unless you can see the future, chances are you're just trying to rationalize the unrational.

Here?s an idea to help get you going... (from Watchmen) If the Silk Specter wasn?t raped by the Comedian, Laurie wouldn?t have been able to influence Dr. Manhattan to the point where he realized the concept of beauty within chaos and potentially altered events which may have inevitably lead to nuclear holocaust. A single generations worth of rape may have assisted in the continued survival of entire species if not the whole world.

For those able to have a calm and collected discussion, I welcome your thoughts on this *philisophically conceptual debate*. For those wanting to jump the gun, be wrong and call me a rapist supporter, I'll have the report button ready; your call.

 

[enzilewulf]

I love how OP gives a list. Makes me feel as if I am going into combat and these are my rules of engagement.

I really can't see anything good that has to come out of rape unless its like the 1st poster said really. If its put in there to help the plot then okay I can see that. Even if its to make you understand how bad a situation is I.E. "Many women are getting raped in the Sierra Leon due to the recklessness of the Rebel forces". Yet IRL there isn't any Justification for rape. Hopefully we all can agree on that.

 

[Esotera]

Bit hard to read the OP, but here goes:

(1) I suppose you could call me objectivist/utilitarian. So ideologically, everyone should be able to do whatever they like, as long as this does not infringe on the rights of others, and preferably so that it is good for everyone in the group. I came up with this mostly by reading various books, and a few discussions with friends.

(2) Rape clearly violates my philosophy, and I view it as a reprehensible act. I would prefer it if others viewed it in a similar way, although I would not force them to adhere to my belief. If they acted upon their views, however, they should be punished appropriately.

I think this is a lot better than saying that rape is bad, end of, even though this is what I believe. It is much easier to have a civilised argument to change someone's views when you aren't constantly telling them they are wrong, even if you believe this to be the case.

(3) The most obvious beneficial result is where life is brought into the world. It's very hard to think of any reason for the last point, but potentially a rapist not raping may result in pent-up emotion, that could result in multiple rapes. Not a great example.

That was incredibly hard to do.

 

[Your Fearless Captain]

There is never ever any sort of justification for rape, ever. Forcing your self onto someone is just wrong.

 

[littlealicewhite]

My moral code is basically this: intentional, malicious harm is unforgivable, anything less than that can be forgiven but must be judged on a case-by-case basis and is still reprehensible. Rape falls under intentional and malicious, and is thusly unforgivable and heinous. I did not form my code based on my religon, parents or culture, but on what I've seen and felt personally.

I can see two things that may occur from a rape that may be benificial: a child or emotional and mental strength from recovery. Neither excuse the crime and are not effects one sets out to cause when they rape. Rape is for the benifit of the rapist, not the victim.

Conclusion: Rape is still wrong.

 

[Rawne1980]

I have a wife and 4 daughters.

Any man was to rape any of them and i'd be doing time for murder, quite literally.

As for my views.

It's a moral bloody seesaw and i'll tell you why. On the one hand I have always had the view that if a man has the need to force himself on a woman then he needs serious help but one thing I never thought about until a few years ago was that it's just as easy for a woman to rape a bloke (albeit in different way).

So while it's quite easy to view the bloke as a sick freak how would you look at the woman?

I know blokes that really wouldn't complain if a woman was to sexually assault them.

So if if the bloke is deemed as sick in the head for raping a woman isn't a woman that does the same thing equally twisted? Or do we live in a world of double standards?

While I know my feeling if it was to happen to one of my girls or my missus, I really think it's a hard one to debate "fairly". We all know it's wrong and shouldn't happen but it's a topic that people struggle to approach with a fair view other than "bastards should be castrated".

 

[TheIronRuler]

A comment about rape, when the Vikings raided coastal villages and towns they tend to exert their domination over the local population, especially the women. Which caused some interesting racial diversity in France and England.
That might be the only good and interesting thing I know about rape.
.
I think that a mark of cain would be better for a rapist. A time of incarsaration, maybe five years or so, and then a mark that says he is a rapist. No, you did not rehabilitate yourself.
Even if you did, you are still a rapist. Poeple will know that. Women will know that.
Even before people TALK to you, you are a rapist.
That's a mark of cain. How to do that?
No clue.
Toss some ideas around.
I think that having a very long time of incarsaration isn't beneficial to anybody. Just let him ruin his live. He'll be a dead man walking while he's a free man.

 

[Texas Joker 52]

Now, while I know this is a fairly obvious distinction that I believe everyone already knows, I think its worth pointing out anyway: Rape in a work of Fiction is different, if only subtly, when compared to rape in the real world.

In my opinion, nothing really good comes out of rape. Its a crime of power, where you happen to be showing your 'power' over someone else, forcing them, and ultimately scarring both physically and mentally for life. It is a very damaging and disturbing act, and I feel that there is no way for it to be compared to other crimes.

Theft CAN be done for good reasons, even when the act is wrong. Example: A man steals bread and food for his starving family. Yes, the shopkeeper loses some of his stock, something he can't sell for his own profit, however the man and his family get to live due to his theft. Yes, his act is a crime, and theft is wrong, however it was ultimately done for good reasons. There can be countless other examples made for this, but I feel that that is the most simple and the easiest to grasp.

Murder can even be done for good reasons, and yes, this act can be even more wrong than theft. Ultimately, it depends on the reasoning behind the crime, who the victim is, and who happens to be the one committing the act. Rape, however, is always done with malicious intent, and even if the end result happens to be a child that will grow up to save the world, the rape itself will still be wrong, and I see no way in which it can be justified.

tl;dr - No. Rape cannot, and should not ever be justified. It is a cruel, and outright evil act done by men and, rarely, women that deserve punishment for it. Not all crimes are equal, and while some crimes may be justified, rape belongs in a heinous category all its own.

 

[NinjaDeathSlap]

1, Granted, a large portion of our personality is conditioned by our environment, almost certainly. I am however, also of the belief that all mentally stable people are born with some kind of inner moral compass that on some level makes us able to tell the difference between right and wrong.

I have a pretty good memory and can remember pretty far back to my childhood. Because of this I can remember the first fight I ever had. Now before that happened no-one had ever had to spell out to me the difference between right and wrong, I still remember feeling guilty about it as soon as I had done it.

Another example? There is now archaeological evidence that back in the time of prehistoric man, when the world was still a brutal place very much ruled by natural selection, that Neanderthals would frequently try to treat and otherwise care for their sick and wounded rather than just leave them to die or kill them, which would have probably been the more beneficial option. This proves that even before any kind of scripture, or media, or any form of subjective morality existed at all, it was still understood that some levels of savagery were just plain wrong, even if doing the humane thing is a huge burden on you.

tl;dr? I do not believe morality is entirely subjective. I believe the vast majority of us have a moral compass at least on a subconscious level and always have. Religion, law, and other forms of moral code are modern ways of understanding and contextualizing this.

2, Because of the above I believe rape is fundamentally wrong and should always be wrong no matter what environment you were raised in, especially now we have a better understanding of the damage it can do to victims and more detailed descriptions of what is and what isn't rape. Rape isn't even beneficial to humanity as a whole, as it is in all likelihood the biggest international cause of the spread of HIV/AIDS. I have no hesitation in arguing that anyone who does not feel inclined to restrain themselves from doing things like this, either consciously or sub-consciously, to be on some level psychologically damaged.

3, Even if the rape in question would be a force for good in the long term, and assuming I had the necessary foresight to be absolutely sure of this I still do not think I could do it, and would also be horrified at the thought of anyone else doing it. (of course, such a situation is so far-fetched it is hard to accurately judge what my feelings and responses would be)

 

[ChaosBorne]

while i don't believe any human being has any inherent rights to claim, those who obey the laws of society should be granted certain privileges, such as protection from the people who don't obey those same laws.

what criminals do to each other i really couldn't care less about, so in that instance i really have no problems with it, they shouldn't have broken the law then.
however i don't feel you can claim to follow the "laws of society" when you go about raping people so doing so would result in loss of privileges.

i really don't see any good coming from rape ever, the watchmen example is a bad one considering the time they actually did have sex it was consential.
anyway the emotional damage done with rape is something that will likely haunt a person for the rest of their lives and no matter how many people are saved because of it, it is ultimately a loathsome and selfish act and should never be condoned, the second you start on that slope every rapist will claim to be the exception and that their action was somehow justified.

there literally ARE NO examples of situations where the exclusion of rape wouldn't have resulted in a better outcome.

 

[Hero in a half shell]

A comment about rape, when the Vikings raided coastal villages and towns they tend to exert their domination over the local population, especially the women. Which caused some interesting racial diversity in France and England.
That might be the only good and interesting thing I know about rape.

As a ginger person from Ireland I never really thought about it that way before, although red hair is seen as a Viking thing native Irish Celts had it before they arrived as well. Hmm, I wonder if my ginger genes were consensual or not.

On topic, I find rape one of the most abhorrent crimes a person can commit, and can't think of any time or place in reality where it could be justified, which is interesting, as someone has already pointed out that theft and even murder can be justified depending on the situation, but rape pretty much by it's definition is an inherently horrible act.

 

[TheIronRuler]

A comment about rape, when the Vikings raided coastal villages and towns they tend to exert their domination over the local population, especially the women. Which caused some interesting racial diversity in France and England.
That might be the only good and interesting thing I know about rape.

As a ginger person from Ireland I never really thought about it that way before, although red hair is seen as a Viking thing native Irish Celts had it before they arrived as well. Hmm, I wonder if my ginger genes were consensual or not.

On topic, I find rape one of the most abhorrent crimes a person can commit, and can't think of any time or place in reality where it could be justified, which is interesting, as someone has already pointed out that theft and even murder can be justified depending on the situation, but rape pretty much by it's definition is an inherently horrible act.

I assure you that if an author great and brave enough arise to the challenge, he will conjure up an appropriate situation.
All bounderies are tested, and rules are ment to be broken.