The Furies are not hoes by definition of anything to do with sex because that doesn't make sense to their characters, but they are hoes by definition that they're very bad people.
...That's exactly what I find offensive. equating hoes with bad people is anti sex anti sexwork anti women and generally sexist sentiment. This EXACTLY why I don't find one word of explanation from any of you at all convincing or mitigating of the sexism in the statement.
jcfrommars9 said:
Just like by more than one director of God of War saying that Kratos is a bastard. They don't mean he's a child of illegitimate parents but an asshole, an SOB, prick, etc.
I don't take offense at the term but my parents never married and my girl friend has a son from a previous relationship without any marriage. So you are infact talking to a bastard with a bastard brother and a potential future bastard son in law. Although I don't really take any offense there is something actually problematic with the general equating bastards with assholes. Which in fact has its roots in a lot of anti sex attitudes. The only reason I don't care is that people don't really look at marital status much any more.
jcfrommars9 said:
I've known women to say things "don't be such a pussy" to "my dick is bigger than yours" to "take your balls out of your purse". You may find these terms offensive, even wrong (as do I) but is it likely they were trying to be sexist against their own or the male gender? No. Vulgar but not sexist.
Yup sexist, all of it. There's also this woman http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phyllis_Schlafly who opposes equal right to women. There is nothing magical about having ovaries that means you can't be sexist or encourage sexist things against your own gender. In fact the kind of gender policing men do to other men is some of the most misandrist shit men have to deal with in our society.
It can't be anti-sexwork in the context of the game because the Furies aren't prostitutes. It can't be anti-women because they're not being called hos because the definition is not literal but figurative. On top of that, it's their character that was at question, not their gender. And just because the phrase "Bros before hos" can be associated with sexist sentiment doesn't mean that it was here. You like Sessler associated those terms with the phrase and assumed that SM did as well when they did not. But they respected those who did and decided to change the title of the trophy. There's nothing problematic with that the word "bastard" because it doesn't equate illegitimate children with assholes. It's nothing more than one word meaning more than one thing.
Again, I refer to my Bioshock Infinite example. "Columbia's gayest (barbershop) quartet". You can't just force in for example that they're being critical of gay people because gay doesn't only mean homosexual. You have to regard context and respect variations.
You can say what those women said were sexist but you didn't actually explain to me why. Sexism implies discrimination and bias. Those phrases I typed were none of the above but instead indecent, tasteless and crude. You see sexism because you associated "pussy" "dick" and "balls" with male and female genitalia instead of or along with cowardness, courage and backbone. Another variation is taking your ovaries of your purse which is the equivalent of... well I'm sure you can make that out for yourself. And yes I'm fully aware that a woman or man can be sexist against their own gender. Like I said, was it likely (not impossible) they were trying to be sexist against their own or the male gender? No.
It's a shame that on this we are antagonistic, i really do admire your penchant for the dramatic.
But if you're gonna hold me responsible for future stuff in gaming, please don't hold me responsible for the facebook stuff and being able to download friends from facebook to gorily kill them in a game.
Hold me responsible for gory games that offend you if you must, but i aint taking the fall for increasingly intrusive social networking in future games.
This thread made me wonder... Exactly how many of you go outside?
*Shrugs* The phrase has been used so much by so many people that neither noun has a gender anymore. Might as well be friends before temporary vices of the flesh. Means the same damn thing.
Thank you for making the argument that games don't matter. Governments are justified in censoring and banning them on a whim because they're just games and don't matter. You can not have games as an art form with meaning and a voice worthy of defense as free speech with the argument that they are just silly games that aren't real have no impact and you can't criticize or find offense in. If video games want to be taken seriously developers and gamers need to grow up and stop treating them casual regard. Part of being worthy of existing as a form of speech is that people are going to examine critic and even criticise games for their content and message. DEAL WITH IT.
Cute. Guess what, it still doesn't change the fact the almost EVERY major female in that series is either A) Victimized B) Objectified C) Overly sexualized or D) some combination of the three. It's hard to say that the game is equal what with how many times women are reduced to fucktoy minigames or juvenile eye candy and that's when they're not being killed for no reason other than to cement Kratos as the juvenile power fantasy he is.
Your argument does not hold water when men are treated the exact same way. Kratos will kill anybody, male or female for the slightest reason and has always been that way. The god of war series has always consistently treated both men and women equally in all forms of brutality.
Ix Rebound said:
Grey Carter said:
The trophy, awarded once Kratos has finished pummeling a female antagonist in a shockingly violent scene even by God of War standards,
Thank you for making the argument that games don't matter. Governments are justified in censoring and banning them on a whim because they're just games and don't matter. You can not have games as an art form with meaning and a voice worthy of defense as free speech with the argument that they are just silly games that aren't real have no impact and you can't criticize or find offense in. If video games want to be taken seriously developers and gamers need to grow up and stop treating them casual regard. Part of being worthy of existing as a form of speech is that people are going to examine critic and even criticise games for their content and message. DEAL WITH IT.
Fiction doesn't exist in a vacuum. It is a product and reflection of the larger culture it was created in. It shapes and effects popular thought and is a way of conveying messages and ideas to the reader. This is why people study literature, art etc in universities. If you need some examples religion (you must beleive that at least some of them are fiction) have a great affect on beliefs, behaviors and the rest of the world. Animal farm isn't just a story of some animals taking over a farm but a story about communism dictatorships. Csi although fiction has caused a surge of interest in forensic science. It is ridiculous to brush off the effect fiction has on society because the events in the story aren't real. Again if you want games to be treated as something worth taking seriously (free speech protection and all that) be prepared for people to treat them like they deserve to be taken seriously.
Thank you for making the argument that games don't matter. Governments are justified in censoring and banning them on a whim because they're just games and don't matter. You can not have games as an art form with meaning and a voice worthy of defense as free speech with the argument that they are just silly games that aren't real have no impact and you can't criticize or find offense in. If video games want to be taken seriously developers and gamers need to grow up and stop treating them casual regard. Part of being worthy of existing as a form of speech is that people are going to examine critic and even criticise games for their content and message. DEAL WITH IT.
Fiction doesn't exist in a vacuum. It is a product and reflection of the larger culture it was created in. It shapes and effects popular thought and is a way of conveying messages and ideas to the reader. This is why people study literature, art etc in universities. If you need some examples religion (you must beleive that at least some of them are fiction) have a great affect on beliefs, behaviors and the rest of the world. Animal farm isn't just a story of some animals taking over a farm but a story about communism dictatorships. Csi although fiction has caused a surge of interest in forensic science. It is ridiculous to brush off the effect fiction has on society because the events in the story aren't real. Again if you want games to be treated as something worth taking seriously (free speech protection and all that) be prepared for people to treat them like they deserve to be taken seriously.
I believe the point has been sorely missed as this is not an issue of free speech or gender sensitivity but rather poor judgement if anything. With the new achievement name, everyone knows what it is referencing without saying it and it fits the achievement conditions (story context) while dabbling on the clever side of achievement naming. No one is getting sleighted or disrespected, the medium doesn't apply and this really shouldn't be a discussion. Real sexism and censorship happen everyday in this industry, this is not an incident of either.
Using figurative metaphorical definitions doesn't change the nature of the insult. If I called you retarded as an insult it would still be problematic and ableist even though you are not literally retarded.
jcfrommars9 said:
On top of that, it's their character that was at question, not their gender.
I keep saying that but I see nothing that supports your point.
jcfrommars9 said:
You like Sessler associated those terms with the phrase and assumed that SM did as well when they did not. But they respected those who did and decided to change the title of the trophy.
Yup good for them now if only I knew they changed it for the right reason or that people were getting anybetter about the addressing the casual sexism in our society.
jcfrommars9 said:
There's nothing problematic with that the word "bastard" because it doesn't equate illegitimate children with assholes. It's nothing more than one word meaning more than one thing.
I'm sorry that's not how language works the reason bastard for example has other meanings is because of the baggage the word has accumulated. Bastards were stigmatized for years and it is from those years that the negative definitions hail. You can't escape that baggage when you continue to use it for negative ends. I have no idea how sensitive the mods are but you can't use multiple definitions to get around the racist implications of calling people n-----s.
Or to put it another way.... Why is it that you see whore, bastard and pussy being used as slurrs and insults but not rutabaga, atmosphere and book.
jcfrommars9 said:
Again, I refer to my Bioshock Infinite example. "Columbia's gayest (barbershop) quartet". You can't just force in for example that they're being critical of gay people because gay doesn't only mean homosexual. You have to regard context and respect variations.
I agree with you here but that's only because gay is not being used in a negative fashion (I assume). Gay has also largely been reclaimed in ways that I don't think ho has.
jcfrommars9 said:
You can say what those women said were sexist but you didn't actually explain to me why.
Don't be a pussy is using the owning, having, or being the female genetalia as a negative or something shameful for a person to have or be. Very sexist and frankly shows a certain contempt for the female gender.
"my dick is bigger than yours" feeds into ridiculous male pressures over penis size that have actually caused mental health issues across africa and asia.
"take your balls out of your purse" Again we have a disdain for people without testicles. Of having testicles being an important part of manhood, maleness and an implication that the previous action being scared, crying etc. This kind of blatant gender policing of forcing men into tight boxes of behaviour and conduct is frankly horribly misandrist bullshit that men need to cut the fuck out.
Taken together don't be a pussy and take your balls out show a societal contempt for women.
jcfrommars9 said:
Sexism implies discrimination and bias. Those phrases I typed were none of the above but instead indecent, tasteless and crude.
Because they show a bias in our language that reflects our view of the sexes.
jcfrommars9 said:
You see sexism because you associated "pussy" "dick" and "balls" with male and female genitalia instead of or along with cowardness, courage and backbone.
No I fully agree that pussy balls dick have meanings like cowardess, courage and back bone attached to them. But how does that work again.... Pussy=cowardess (negative) Ball= backbone (positive). Nope not showing gender bias there what so ever. Not reflecting a culture of brave active men who show know emotions and frail emotional women who can't take care of them selves be brave in their own right.
jcfrommars9 said:
Another variation is taking your ovaries of your purse which is the equivalent of... well I'm sure you can make that out for yourself.
Which is not nearly as common still problematic in its focus on genetals. Just knock the sexist metaphors and slurs off.
jcfrommars9 said:
yes I'm fully aware that a woman or man can be sexist against their own gender. Like I said, was it likely (not impossible) they were trying to be sexist against their own or the male gender? No.
Intent isn't magic. You don't suddenly escape the consequences of your actions because you didn't mean to. Does it matter that I saw your cat cross the road and ran it over deliberately or that I was drunk or careless and ran it over. Either way harm was done by my actions. We live in a sexist, ableist, racist etc culture and its beholden on us to be cognizant of how our actions effect that culture and the other people in it. I not going to go around praising people cause they were only sexist by not thinking about it.
People don't have to be perfect about it but they should make an effort not to think about their actions and listen when people call them on it. Similarly people can enjoy problematic media but that doesn't mean there are problems with it.
Regarding this matter, for the same reason. Mr. Sessler as well as many others who were quick to criticize Santa Monica didn't think before they spoke. Hell, some people still think that you actually got the trophy for beating up a female character even though that contextually makes no sense. In part, that was thanks to Adam taking the scene out of context and his ridiculous use of the word misogyny. If Papy is telling the truth, then the idea came from a woman. Man or woman, it was seems much more likely that it was a joke, a tasteless joke but certainly not a "gut punch of misogyny".
You're right. A substantial part of what is problematic here is that a blatant false-hood is surviving repeatedly being outed as such.
What strikes me as odd is that we're holding videogames to a completely different standard than we do all other media... Which is something that drives this community nuts when Fox news and others of their ilk do the same.
Why is it understood as a tongue-in-cheek reference to a silly meme when included in House?
Which I'm fairly certain that there was precisely zero-controversy over.
But when a videogame references the exact same meme(again in a context where it's inclusion is purposely silly rather than an endorsement of the sentiment...) it's suddenly a hot-button issue? Are videogames simply thought not to be clever enough to employ any kind of tongue-in-cheek or self-aware humour? Again... this community is repeatedly pissed off when games are denograted as an art form or thought to be "mindless" or any of the usual criticisms.
I'm sure someone is about to accuse me of being an awful person... but I don't get it.
I'll spoil the easy out of someone accusing me of being angry or having my panties twisted. I'm not angry, my interest is exactly that... interest. Rest assured that I am calm and in control. Any suggestion that I'm not, I will see as dismissive bullshit.
What seems to have been overlooked by and large is that the name of the trophy was not a misogynistic comment in itself, but rather a pop culter reference to a misogynistic joke/comment, and the new trophy name is just as much a reference to that joke. So if you were offended by the original title you should be just as offended by the new title!
I would like to make it clear that I'm not saying i did find it offensive, i didn't find it funny, but equally i don't feel I was in any way being labeled as a "hoe" so it would be disingenuous of me to find offence in it. In my opinion it was probably a bit of a silly choice for a trophy name in the first place but was it really worth getting so upset about?
What i do find offensive as a woman is the way people (usually men) make a judgement that something is offensive to women and decide to take offence on our behalf. Case and point, in the run up to Christmas someone in my office sent an email around suggesting we have a "Guys and Dolls party", I didnt think anything of it but within 10 minutes one of our managers had taken it upon himself to send a follow up email around apologising to all the women in the office for "the use of the offensive term Dolls" in the aforementioned email. I did find this offensive!
Well no. It was a minor edit, but it was an edit done under pressure from people who had no genuine interest or connection to the game what so ever. The real problem is the precedent this opens up. Should people who complain about everything they read and hear in every form of media be allowed have their complaints change that media? Is it right to alter, neuter or otherwise transform things just to make some sensitive people fweel better about themselves?
And we've seen this slippery slope in action. Hell, Mass Effect 3 was changed so that the good guys all lived happily ever after...Oh, wait.
(Yes, we've been hearing about this sort of "dangerous precedent" for years, so that's valid)
Complaining because your entertainment is being changed by people who think they should be the controller of what you see/hear/read/play is justified complaining.
It's childish. It still has no bearing on you, which is just as immature. By the same stretch of slippery slope fallacy, we could infer that if left alone, precedents like this trophy title could propagate into more blatant misogyny.
Bet you'd call that crazy. I call them both crazy.
Sexual Harassment Panda said:
How exactly is a quick opinion drop on a semi-related forum a "bigger-stink" than anything that would cause a dev to change their content?
Using figurative metaphorical definitions doesn't change the nature of the insult. If I called you retarded as an insult it would still be problematic and ableist even though you are not literally retarded.
jcfrommars9 said:
On top of that, it's their character that was at question, not their gender.
I keep saying that but I see nothing that supports your point.
jcfrommars9 said:
You like Sessler associated those terms with the phrase and assumed that SM did as well when they did not. But they respected those who did and decided to change the title of the trophy.
Yup good for them now if only I knew they changed it for the right reason or that people were getting anybetter about the addressing the casual sexism in our society.
jcfrommars9 said:
There's nothing problematic with that the word "bastard" because it doesn't equate illegitimate children with assholes. It's nothing more than one word meaning more than one thing.
I'm sorry that's not how language works the reason bastard for example has other meanings is because of the baggage the word has accumulated. Bastards were stigmatized for years and it is from those years that the negative definitions hail. You can't escape that baggage when you continue to use it for negative ends. I have no idea how sensitive the mods are but you can't use multiple definitions to get around the racist implications of calling people n-----s.
Or to put it another way.... Why is it that you see whore, bastard and pussy being used as slurrs and insults but not rutabaga, atmosphere and book.
jcfrommars9 said:
Again, I refer to my Bioshock Infinite example. "Columbia's gayest (barbershop) quartet". You can't just force in for example that they're being critical of gay people because gay doesn't only mean homosexual. You have to regard context and respect variations.
I agree with you here but that's only because gay is not being used in a negative fashion (I assume). Gay has also largely been reclaimed in ways that I don't think ho has.
jcfrommars9 said:
You can say what those women said were sexist but you didn't actually explain to me why.
Don't be a pussy is using the owning, having, or being the female genetalia as a negative or something shameful for a person to have or be. Very sexist and frankly shows a certain contempt for the female gender.
"my dick is bigger than yours" feeds into ridiculous male pressures over penis size that have actually caused mental health issues across africa and asia.
"take your balls out of your purse" Again we have a disdain for people without testicles. Of having testicles being an important part of manhood, maleness and an implication that the previous action being scared, crying etc. This kind of blatant gender policing of forcing men into tight boxes of behaviour and conduct is frankly horribly misandrist bullshit that men need to cut the fuck out.
Taken together don't be a pussy and take your balls out show a societal contempt for women.
jcfrommars9 said:
Sexism implies discrimination and bias. Those phrases I typed were none of the above but instead indecent, tasteless and crude.
Because they show a bias in our language that reflects our view of the sexes.
jcfrommars9 said:
You see sexism because you associated "pussy" "dick" and "balls" with male and female genitalia instead of or along with cowardness, courage and backbone.
No I fully agree that pussy balls dick have meanings like cowardess, courage and back bone attached to them. But how does that work again.... Pussy=cowardess (negative) Ball= backbone (positive). Nope not showing gender bias there what so ever. Not reflecting a culture of brave active men who show know emotions and frail emotional women who can't take care of them selves be brave in their own right.
jcfrommars9 said:
Another variation is taking your ovaries of your purse which is the equivalent of... well I'm sure you can make that out for yourself.
Which is not nearly as common still problematic in its focus on genetals. Just knock the sexist metaphors and slurs off.
jcfrommars9 said:
yes I'm fully aware that a woman or man can be sexist against their own gender. Like I said, was it likely (not impossible) they were trying to be sexist against their own or the male gender? No.
Intent isn't magic. You don't suddenly escape the consequences of your actions because you didn't mean to. Does it matter that I saw your cat cross the road and ran it over deliberately or that I was drunk or careless and ran it over. Either way harm was done by my actions. We live in a sexist, ableist, racist etc culture and its beholden on us to be cognizant of how our actions effect that culture and the other people in it. I not going to go around praising people cause they were only sexist by not thinking about it.
People don't have to be perfect about it but they should make an effort not to think about their actions and listen when people call them on it. Similarly people can enjoy problematic media but that doesn't mean there are problems with it.
Context does matter. Without context or regard for it, you can't apply meaning to words or phrases or anything else. It's like trying to hit a target but without being told what it is. By context, one word or phrase can mean very many different things. You keep losing me because you're ultimately arguing that context has no relevance. Bastard for example has more than one meaning. Just because it does, doesn't mean you can equate one definition variation with the other no matter what the "baggage" is. That's not how context works. You have to determine interpretation, not assume it like Sessler did.
As for the "pussy", "dick" and "balls" association, as I said you see sexism because you associated "pussy" "dick" and "balls" with male and female genitalia instead of or along with cowardness, courage and backbone. My point was, you assumed the leap. So do many others. So much so that you can't tell the difference. For instance, if I said "grow a backbone", could you interpret discrimination from that? Probably not. Just because backbone is a slang term for courage doesn't mean we as a society actually think the larger or more backbone you have, the more courageous you are. And no, intent isn't magic. It isn't context either. Intent is meaning and significance. And again, this was my point. You can't determine intent so how can Sessler assume "gut punch of misoyngy"? He can't. He may have had a problem with the context but he assumed the context as well as intent which in turn helped start a shitstorm with too many people not even understanding or knowing what they were even criticizing. The fact that people thought the trophy immediately followed Kratos beating up Alecto is testament to that. People should make an effort to think about their actions and listen when people call them on it. But that door swings both ways.
Context does matter. Without context or regard for it, you can't apply meaning to words or phrases or anything else. It's like trying to hit a target but without being told what it is. By context, one word or phrase can mean very many different things. You keep losing me because you're ultimately arguing that context has no relevance. Bastard for example has more than one meaning. Just because it does, doesn't mean you can equate one definition variation with the other no matter what the "baggage" is. That's not how context works. You have to determine interpretation, not assume it like Sessler did.
As for the "pussy", "dick" and "balls" association, as I said you see sexism because you associated "pussy" "dick" and "balls" with male and female genitalia instead of or along with cowardness, courage and backbone. My point was, you assumed the leap. So do many others. So much so that you can't tell the difference. For instance, if I said "grow a backbone", could you interpret discrimination from that? Probably not. Just because backbone is a slang term for courage doesn't mean we as a society actually think the larger or more backbone you have, the more courageous you are. And no, intent isn't magic. It isn't context either. Intent is meaning and significance. And again, this was my point. You can't determine intent so how you can Sessler assume "gut punch of misoyngy"? He can't. He may have had a problem with the context but he assumed the context as well as intent which in turn helped start a shitstorm with too many people not even understanding or knowing what they were even criticizing. The fact that people though the trophy immediately followed Kratos beating up Alecto is testament to that.
I can hardly believe how obtuse you are. The very negative definitions being attached to these words is offensive sexist bullshit (pussy-female genitalia and coward, bastard-person born out of wedlock and asshole etc). These are not arbitrary additional definitions they are there because of a history of sexist usage. There's a reason words for female genitalia or aspects of being a woman are insults but rutabega doesn't have any negative definitions associated with it. I can not believe that you read what I said that you keep spewing the same clueless arguments at me over again. There is frankly nothing to be gained in continuing this conversation if the only response to my last post is to repeat the arguments you stated in your first post. I'm not going to argue in circles with you go wallow in your casual societal sexism or read some feminism 101 on gendered slurs. http://finallyfeminism101.wordpress.com/2008/05/16/feminism-friday-on-*****-and-other-misogynist-language/
So Adam Sessler makes a comment that gets Sony Santa Monica to change the name of a trophy that a gamer MAYBE would have looked at once. In their usual "let's rouse the rabble" style of reporting, the Escapist runs this non-story. Shortly thereafter, every misogynist and white knight on the Escapist come in to angrily denounce each other for 301 posts.
Oh, Escapist. You never fail to invoke amusement and pity in equal amounts.
It's a shame that on this we are antagonistic, i really do admire your penchant for the dramatic.
But if you're gonna hold me responsible for future stuff in gaming, please don't hold me responsible for the facebook stuff and being able to download friends from facebook to gorily kill them in a game.
Hold me responsible for gory games that offend you if you must, but i aint taking the fall for increasingly intrusive social networking in future games.
Agreed. You have been a worthy adversary and the basis of our antagonism is mostly tangential to the topic at hand.
(I actually like the new achievement title).
We shall meet again and do battle on a grander stage than this, and I will get better at this...debating you call it.
It might be fun to have a Forum nemesis if I can get the tone and language of my posts right (if you don't mind being an experiment for this).
Cute. Guess what, it still doesn't change the fact the almost EVERY major female in that series is either A) Victimized B) Objectified C) Overly sexualized or D) some combination of the three. It's hard to say that the game is equal what with how many times women are reduced to fucktoy minigames or juvenile eye candy and that's when they're not being killed for no reason other than to cement Kratos as the juvenile power fantasy he is.
Your argument does not hold water when men are treated the exact same way. Kratos will kill anybody, male or female for the slightest reason and has always been that way. The god of war series has always consistently treated both men and women equally in all forms of brutality.
Ix Rebound said:
Grey Carter said:
The trophy, awarded once Kratos has finished pummeling a female antagonist in a shockingly violent scene even by God of War standards,
the one where you pummel his face in until it goes red it zeus
Poseidon is the one where one beat his head against the wall, head butt him 4 for 5 times then gouge out his eyes while twisting his neck
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