Leg End said:
At what point is it danger? Visibly armed and actively shooting? Quick motion to/from the waist and pointing at an officer? Reaching for your waistband while fleeing police? The last two are taught to officers as giant red flags that a weapon is potentially going to come into play. That's why one of the most common orders you will ever hear from a cop is 'Hands out of your pockets', or some variation of keeping your hands away from your waist, and keeping them visible. The speed at which a weapon can be drawn and someone ends up dead is why such focus is placed on that kind of thing.
From what I was taught in my firearm safety class, my shotgun safety class, and from my prep classes for the NYPD?
The point where any reasonable person would see the situation and especially the aftermath of the situation and still feel the same threat of your life being in danger.
That's why the worst thing you can ever do is shooting someone in the back. Lethal Force is permitted as a response, not an escalation. You need to be sure if you pull the trigger because everyone else will be sure
after the situation occurs.
And it's hard to prove danger to you and your environment when someone is obviously retreating the situation/not in the same area as you are. This can not be more perfectly summed up in the case of the AK-47 Toting Store Owner [https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/florida-shooting-ak-47-store-cctv-video-christmas-eve-fight-a9148991.html].
Video has been released showing a Florida store owner shooting an assault rifle at an unarmed customer during a tense dispute.
Saf Ahmad, the store owner who was charged for aggravated battery with a deadly weapon following the Christmas Eve 2017 altercation, has said he fired in self defense after the customer became hostile and threw something from his car.
His lawyers have now released surveillance footage that shows the customer, Jason Morris, verbally confronting his staff before heading outside and knocking over a rubbish bin in the car park.
He then throws the bin at the store, sending litter flying across the car park as nearby customers rush away in a panic.
The bin and some of its contents can be seen smashing into the front entrance of the store, where Mr Ahmad later appears brandishing a weapon.
He and another person are both holding guns and appear to be shouting at Mr Morris, who is still just outside of the store.
The door closes before Mr Ahmad reappears with a larger weapon, an AK-47. He fires multiple shots at the customer, who flees in his car.
The video shows Mr Ahmad and the second person running out of the store and into the car park with their weapons.
Mr Ahmad was arrested shortly afterwards. His next hearing is scheduled for 1 November, NBC News reported.
A police report filed at the time indicated that Mr Morris was shot in the back and left permanently disabled.
Mr Morris told police he was confronting the staff at the convenience store about allegations of employees threatening customers with violence and accusations of illegal activity.
Andrew Rier, a lawyer for Mr Ahmad, disputed that account in a July court filing.
His client claims to have thought the customer had thrown a grenade at the store when a bottle smashed into the entrance.
"In this case, Mr Ahmad believed he had no choice but to use force necessary to prevent imminent death or great bodily harm to himself as well as others present," his lawyers wrote.
Bolded for the magical words of BS that people who do wrong shoots sprinkle around liberally like it was pixie dust.
This was the attempt to summon the Legendary "Stand Your Ground [http://www.leg.state.fl.us/statutes/index.cfm?App_mode=Display_Statute&Search_String=&URL=0700-0799/0776/Sections/0776.012.html]" Defense. But of course it fails because people don't understand the whole of the law and how it can fail them, just the idea that they can literally chase people into streets with AK-47s if they are angry enough.
Ahmad had another gentleman also armed backing him up, he clearly felt brave enough to tell the man to leave, and then fired. Then felt safe enough to go get his AK-47, fire wildly into the parking lot, and then chase Mr. Morris as he drove away.
It is these actions that can be seen that shows the lack of fear. It is Florida. Anyone can have a gun. And you can easily say that there's a high possibly that Morris was armed. You don't know.
But that's the issue. You don't know. A threat to society must be display at the time of the incident. Not prior. If you got caught with a gun at an early age, go to jail for five years, get out and turn your life around without getting your record expunged? Guess what? You're still a threat to the society. That will still be brought up on your record if someone calls the cops on you for a misunderstanding, and that is a signal for the clasps to come off the guns.
Are they right to now come to the situation as you being a potential threat for something that happened fifteen years ago? What about Ten? Five? A year ago? 3 months? Your question to me is a valid one, At what point is it a danger? But I have to counter it with another question. At what point is that you're reacting to made up in your head?
Information of the Past is Information of the Past. I don't know how they got it. Was Murrietta-Golding arrested and they found the firearm on him? Or did someone who was interviewed about the Murrietta-Golding brothers say something like "Oh, yeah, I always heard them talking about how they are always strapped"? Even though both situations will never prove that he will have a firearm on him now (and in fact, they didn't prove to be trustworthy at all now), the latter is even worse. It's heresy. Based on either fear or the stupid boastings of immature teen boys who want to seem harder than they already are.
At any case, it was all wrong, and a child is dead because of it. We don't even have the information of how credible the 'threat to the society' or 'Murrietta-Golding being known to have a firearm' is. But it was all that was needed to take this boy's life without a second thought.
So. Yeah. Police Officers should see a firearm before it is necessary before shooting. An actual threat.
...That shooting gives me a headache on so many levels, and the people that cheer for that asshole for murdering that man just because he's a cop infuriate me in ways I didn't think were still possible. That is a case where necessary precaution was taken, but was executed so fucking badly that it cost a man his life, all because of a cop with an ego trip and the shakes was giving the most utterly fuckstupid commands in the recent history of policing. Holy fucking hell.
Literally all they had to say was "Don't move, one of my many heavily armed SWAT members is coming over to you to put you in handcuffs and search you for a weapon". And Shaver is still alive today.
It's definitely not. But judging from the snippet of bodycam footage we do have, it looks like that was probably the best time to take a shot if ever there was one. The time it'd take to hop the fence is time the guy had to take a hostage and make the situation worse by several orders of magnitude.
The daycare being empty not likely being a fact known by the officers, and it probably didn't help that there was a yellow shortbus right to the side of the daycare.
I put these together because they actually strengthen my idea that the shooting definitely shouldn't have happened. Because not many things are known, and everything seems to be predicated the officer jumping to the worst possible thoughts in the situation.
There was information that suspect wanted for questioning in a homicide investigation could possibly has a gun = He definitely has a gun and we always have to treat him like a threat to the community!
There's a day care center on Saturday afternoon which possibly could be closed as most day care centers are = There could be children in there and this sicko knows it!
The Suspect just jumped a fence and I can visible see his pants falling down, and now after he reached to his side, the pants are now up again = HE'S GOING FOR HIS CLEARLY DEFINED GUN THAT FOR SOME REASON NEVER SLIPPED OUT AT ANY TIME DURING THIS HIGH SPEED FOOT CHASE AND MY LIFE IS IN DANGER EVEN THOUGH HE'S CLEARLY NOT FACING ME!
That's not policing.
Chief is an idiot and probably has a foot in his mouth. He is correct however in him reaching for his waistband, or at least as it appeared to officers at the time. I'm not even saying the cop was in the right. I'm just in the ballpark that the officer wasn't just murdering a fleeing teenager because his buddy bet him a beer. There is a lot of gray area here, and a lot of that gray presents a situation where the officer may have been justified in his use of force. What I'd like to see is unedited bodycamera footage. That I can tell so far, only CNN has the footage out and about, and they've cut out huuuuuge swaths of it, further depriving us of context in this situation. Here's hoping Real Police Videos can get their hands on it and put it up. Lord knows we need it and not edited highlights.
Hey, I get you. No one can dispute Murrietta-Golding was reaching for his waistband. Maybe I shouldn't have been a cop, because I might have died. But my train of thought would have been "Subject Scaled the Fence. Subject Failed. Subject seems disorganized. Subject is attempting to continue to flee. Subject's ass is showing. Subject reached for his waistline, potential danger. Subject's ass is no longer showing. Oh. Totes adjusting himself. Got it."
Can I tell you something? I've done nothing wrong. And I feel like running when I see cops. I'm not joking in the slightest. I know all cops are not bloodthirsty gangsters. But I know historically (and I mean that in every since of the word) I wouldn't come out looking good in any situation. Is there the same grey area for me if I get afraid and run away?
Nope. I'm supposed to supersede my fears and deal with the situation as presented, not what I might fear. I do not think I'm asking much if the police are held to the same standards. By all means shoot if the subject is presenting actual danger to the officers or the public that anyone can see. But you do not get to shoot if you 'feel it might possibly happen because I got some scary information I haven't collaborated'
Batou667 said:
Without wanting to typecast you, a lot of your posts on this forum are on the subject of black people killed at the hands of white cops. A subject that's particularly relevant to you, I get it, but it seems as if you're trying to assemble this big body of evidence that the police departments in much of the US are trigger-happy, incompetent and/or racist. In some cases, such as the recent example of a cop shooting through the deceased's window instead of identifying himself or giving her time to respond, I would concede you're bringing very relevant examples to the table that suggest there is a very deep institutional culture of shoot first, ask questions later, especially when you're in the dangerous territory of minorities.
What I'm saying though is that this example is unlike the others in your last few posts. There is no cut and dry single person at fault here. I can't say for sure whether the fact that a potentially armed suspect was running from me would make me feel at ease, but police don't operate *just* on the basis of self preservation. There's also the issue of preventing harm to bystanders, such as whoever might be in the daycare the suspect is bolting toward. Yes, it was a Saturday, so the officer could have logically reasoned nobody would be in. Unless it was a facility that provided weekend activities, or was a space for hire that may have been occupied by a kid's party, or was being cleaned, or any other hypothetical. Ultimately it's a sad state of affairs that led to a kid's death, but I'm not sure what you want us to conclude from this. Police are human and humans make mistakes in the heat of the moment? Sure, I'll agree to that. But if you want to make the case that the deceased was singled out for being black, or sixteen, or was killed "for the crime of running" as seemed to be implied by the topic title? I'm not convinced the evidence is there.
Hey, can I just point out how super ironic it is that you're telling me that it seems I might be unfair to cops because I'm supposedly collecting information about miscarriages of justice that cops do... you know, by mentioning what seems to you to be a large amount of my posts focusing on the topic?
I'm not trying to be sarcastic. But you have to see the irony in that, right? And even pushed more with the fact that you clearly state that you don't think I'm a bad guy or should be typecast. Much the way I say that I blame the procedures, I don't think all cops are bad people, but I do know situations favor cops regardless of facts.
Again. If there's any fault, I put it squarely on training and the decision making of the officer. I've made it about this officer's case. In every post, I've been talking about decision making and the taint of perception via unsubstantiated information, which yields regrettable circumstances. I've been quoting procedures in this case versus what I was taught in various firearm courses and my brief stint in trying to become an NYPD officer and the studying I had to go through. I don't think this is racial bias. I think this is fear tactics gone awry. I think this is a case of Training and Procedure. Fear mongering in training will leave police officers in a heightened state of alarm which can turn them into hammers and every situation, a potential nail.
Don't take this the wrong way. But this entire thread was devoid of race until you brought it in due to your perception of me. My issue is with Police. The way they are trained, the unrestricted power they seem to have over our very lives, and the way the government and the citizens of this nation allows it to go unchecked due to hero worship. Yes, the flagrant abuses of said power is normally displayed via actions against the under represented and the marginalized, i.e. poor and black Americans. Which truly gross situations occur, I point it out. It's not like I ignore the situation if it happens to a white person.
Hell, as you pointed out, Murrietta-Golding isn't black. To me, he is another life lost due to questionable police tactics. Every life (white, black, latin, asian, male, female, gay, straight, or fluid) due to questionable police tactics is horrific. Because the police are supposed to be the good guys, but they are treating our lives like the O.K. Corral.
And the Title is a Variation of the actual title of the Article I linked to.
