Corvid-19 and its impact (name edit)

[Agema]

You're wrong. It's not that those people affirm his beliefs, it's that they glorify him as a person.

He's not totally wrong. Trump may be a narcissist who loves people who flatter him, but he still also has his own beliefs in various ways.

For instance, Trump has a long history of racism and nationalism going back decades to the 80s at least. He didn't suddenly start enthusing about them in 2015 out of nowhere, when he chose to run for president. He doesn't need to give time to all those far right cranks and weirdos, either for popularity or to spread chaos.

 

[tstorm823]

For instance, Trump has a long history of racism and nationalism going back decades to the 80s at least.

People can put together a case pretending this is true, but it's based almost entirely on contested quotes and insinuations. People will have you believe that Trump was clearing the casino floor of black employees whenever he walked through, but I'm old enough to remember this happening [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u_wcNmQ_hEk], so lets just say I doubt those claims.

I have no doubt that Trump harbors some old-timey racial prejudices that the world would be better without. But Trump has had a few accusations of racism over decades packed with positive interactions with racial minorities, which is pretty much exactly what you find with any prominent figure not motivated by race. There's really not a good case that Trump is a bigot or racial supremacist.

 

[Thaluikhain]

Meanwhile we have our people on the front lines going without proper PPE and the necessary resources because of the series of mistakes Trump made that made this so much worse. He doesn't know how to do his job, nor does he even know what his job is supposed to be. He flies by the seat of his arse and is taking the entire country with him. He is constantly all over the place and cannot even make it through a coherent speech written for him without screwing it up and being an idiot. It is like he is completely incapable of opening his mouth without saying something stupid.

I am not even sure he is capable of understanding what is about to happen when our front lines all fall ill at the same time while we are overcapacity of everything we need to combat this. No, it is more important to him to blame China for his unpreparedness and lack of proper response while he rants about " The Federal Government is not a shipping service" when in times of emergencies, it is his job to ensure the federal government steps up and becomes whatever is needed, be it a shipping service, builder or protector to maintain the general welfare of the people. It is like he is not capable of understanding that means he will deliver necessary supplies to the front lines himself if needed if that is what it takes to save the nation. He just doesn't "get it".

Eh, without armchair psychoanalysing him, I personally think that it's not that he doesn't know, or that he's incapable of understanding, it's just that he doesn't care because it doesn't matter to him. He got the job despite being an obviously terrible choice, he's still got his rabid defenders, why bother trying even slightly to do it properly?

 

[Terminal Blue]

You have to remember, these are the same sorts of people that preach prosperity theology. They see wealth and good fortune as evidence of moral righteousness.

That's Calvinism. It's a fairly normal branch of Protestant theology, especially in the US.

Prosperity theology is the idea that anyone can achieve wealth and good fortune through faith and religious donations. Calvinists believe that good fortune and wealth are signs of being among those predestined to be saved. Prosperity theology views things like poverty, illness and other social problems which harm individuals as curses which God is able to dispel. That's why it meshes so well with spiritual warfare, which emphasises combating demonic influence. The two are also very obvious in their differences, Calvinists value wealth but also personal modesty and frugality. The prosperity gospel uses ostentatious displays of wealth (especially on the part of church leaders) to convey the material rewards of piety. The grim irony is that these displays of ostentatious wealth are directly funded by the donations of those who believe those donations will incur similar spiritual and financial rewards for them.

It's far more likely that prosperity theology is attractive to Trump because he sees its proponents as "his kind of people". White is a multi-millionaire, she wears nice clothes, she's clearly had work done, she's married to a celebrity. I personally don't think Trump is motivated by any particularly deep personal commitment to any form of religious politics, but it is undeniable that his political platform aligns closely with spiritual warfare theology, and under his presidency its proponents have gained a huge amount of influence and the ability to enforce their beliefs onto the American state. That is not an accident.

That's the only belief that Trump aligns with these people.

It isn't.

They may have different motivations for believing the same thing, but they absolutely believe the same thing on many, many issues. White and Trump are not just political allies, they have a personal relationship which grants her an enormous amount of access. Even if you believe that Trump is a vacuous narcissist incapable of holding any form of political belief or thought (which seems odd, because you were the one arguing earlier that we needed to read the political intent behind Trump's statement as if he was some kind of calculating genius) then you cannot ignore the kind of people he seems to gravitate to.

Declaring that anyone could achieve the same level of access and the same level of support for any political agenda is a weak cop-out. This is Donald Trump, who when presented with a proposal to restore protection for immigrants started ranting about "shithole countries" and asking why he couldn't have more immigrants from Norway. He has political beliefs. They may not be very eloquent or well thought out, but they exist, and denying that they do is exactly the kind of weird dismissal of Donald Trump's capacities that you seem to thoroughly object to when done by people who don't think he's the hero America needs.

 

[Agema]

You have to remember, these are the same sorts of people that preach prosperity theology. They see wealth and good fortune as evidence of moral righteousness.

That's Calvinism. It's a fairly normal branch of Protestant theology, especially in the US.

No it isn't. Prosperity theology appeared a few decades ago out of evangelical denominations (chiefly I think Pentecostalism), centuries after Calvin.

Early Protestantism was supportive of wealth generation, modelled on the idea that one could not give to charity without the wealth to do so; it did not however regard wealth as a gift from God and the moral act was philanthropy. Prosperity theology generally supports giving, but it's giving to the church: which purely coincidentally tend to be run by the very pastors doing the preaching, who enrich themselves extremely handsomely out of the money their frequently low income congregants give them.

People will have you believe that Trump was clearing the casino floor of black employees whenever he walked through, but I'm old enough to remember this happening [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u_wcNmQ_hEk], so lets just say I doubt those claims.

I think that argument relies on a misconception of what racists are like.

They're not incapable of relating to other races politely and positively, or working with them. It's not that unusual for them to have friends of other races (justified because of exception that those friends are not like people of that race normally are). I think a lot of racists tolerate other races as long as they're in their place - but the minute they are perceived to be above their station, there's a problem. I'm inclined to think that's why Trump has an obvious and particular animosity towards Obama.

You might want to want to rhetorically dismiss some racism as "old-timey racial prejudices"... but they're still real prejudices that end in real discrimination.

 

[Terminal Blue]

No it isn't. Prosperity theology appeared a few decades ago out of evangelical denominations (chiefly I think Pentecostalism), centuries after Calvin.

Indeed, my point is that what's being described here as prosperity theology is actually a fairly common Protestant belief going back to Calvin. Actual prosperity theology is considerably more sinister than simply believing that wealth is a mark of moral conduct.

Early Protestantism was supportive of wealth generation, modelled on the idea that one could not give to charity without the wealth to do so; it did not however regard wealth as a gift from God and the moral act was philanthropy.

Calvinists believe that human beings exists in a state of total depravity, that human beings possess an inherently sinful nature which precludes redemption through any kind of moral action or even self-motivated faith. Instead, it is God who chooses His elect and imbues them with a moral nature antithetical to their state as human beings and conducive to salvation. Calvinists believe that human beings are incapable of truly moral acts without divine intervention. Historically they did not emphasise charity outside of the very limited confines of their own communities, because they did not see humanity, and in particular the poor, as worthy of salvation.

It is not that Calvinists saw wealth as a gift from God. The idea of a gift from God is a feature of charismatic Christianity, of which prosperity theology is a slightly weird offshot. But Calvinists typically saw poverty as a sign of moral laxity, and the acquisition of wealth as a mark of frugality, sobriety and other virtues they considered admirable. This is why Max Weber singled them out as the originators of what he saw as the "spirit" of capitalism, because they saw the economy as possessing a moral dimension in which the most deserving would find success simply through the application of their god-given virtue.

 

[Marik2]

 

[tstorm823]

I think a lot of racists tolerate other races as long as they're in their place - but the minute they are perceived to be above their station, there's a problem. I'm inclined to think that's why Trump has an obvious and particular animosity towards Obama.

But like, he didn't start out with particular animosity toward Obama. When Obama was elected and the financial crisis was happening, he said "His speech was great last night. I thought it was inspiring in every way. And, hopefully he's going to do a great job. But the way I look at it, he cannot do worse than Bush." It was years later that he jumped on the birther conspiracy and picked fights with Obama. I don't know if that was just picking a way to build his reputation in politics, I don't know if Obama did something that made Trump feel personally slighted, but I don't think resentment of a black president is a good explanation for Trump supporting Obama for a couple years and then suddenly attacking him. It's not like delayed onset bigotry.

You might want to want to rhetorically dismiss some racism as "old-timey racial prejudices"... but they're still real prejudices that end in real discrimination.

I'm not trying to dismiss it, I'm just trying to separate out unlike things. A man who insists on Jewish accountants and a manwho burns crosses in people's lawns are both bad and both racist, but there's no reason to expect these people to act the same or sympathize with one another. It's a different mindset. Not an acceptable one, just different. There are different kinds of prejudice that have nothing in common with klansmen or nazis.

 

[Kwak]

A close-up of President Trump's notes shows where "Corona" was replaced with "Chinese" Virus as he speaks at the White House on March 19, 2020.
https://time.com/5807376/virus-name-foreign-history/

 

[Agema]

But like, he didn't start out with particular animosity toward Obama. When Obama was elected and the financial crisis was happening, he said "His speech was great last night. I thought it was inspiring in every way. And, hopefully he's going to do a great job. But the way I look at it, he cannot do worse than Bush. It was years later that he jumped on the birther conspiracy and picked fights with Obama. I don't know if that was just picking a way to build his reputation in politics, I don't know if Obama did something that made Trump feel personally slighted, but I don't think resentment of a black president is a good explanation for Trump supporting Obama for a couple years and then suddenly attacking him. It's not like delayed onset bigotry.

I think Trump picked a fight with Obama partly because he decided the Republican Party was his path to the presidency. Hence why around the same time he started cosying up to evangelical Christians - naturally choosing what I assume is the prettiest female one he could find, because, you know, Trump. However, that doesn't really explain Trump's most consistent ideological drive in government, which appears to be undoing as many significant achievements of Obama as he can. That's a special sort of dislike.

I also think he took up birtherism because he believed it. Trump has quite a history as a supporter of conspiracy theories, such as vaccines and autism. As president he's gone into overdrive: he's started futile investigations over them (voter fraud, FBI wiretapping, etc.) and even got himself impeached for trying to dig up dirt in Ukraine. That's not stuff you'd do if you just said shit for public relations convenience. And for all that Trump publicly said Obama was born in the USA on the 2016 campaign trail, this appears to have been a statement of convenience, because there are plenty of reports he's still hammering away at it in private. I think he really does believe Obama was an illegitimate president, and wants to wipe Obama's political accomplishments away as if he didn't exist.

We might point out that "birther" beliefs correlate very well with racist sentiments according to studies. Or Trump telling non-white politicians to "go back where they came from" - which in most cases is of course the USA as they were born there. But the implication that the USA is a white country is unmistakable. Those guys who burn crosses on lawns love him for a reason.

I'm not trying to dismiss it, I'm just trying to separate out unlike things. A man who insists on Jewish accountants and a manwho burns crosses in people's lawns are both bad and both racist, but there's no reason to expect these people to act the same or sympathize with one another. It's a different mindset. Not an acceptable one, just different. There are different kinds of prejudice that have nothing in common with klansmen or nazis.

That there are many different kinds of racist and they don't necessarily break bread together doesn't mean that the man in the Oval Office whipping up hate against Mexicans, Chinese, blacks etc. is okay. Hate crimes are up. [https://www.brookings.edu/blog/fixgov/2019/08/14/trump-and-racism-what-do-the-data-say/]

 

[Marik2]

looks like rand paul has the commie flu. maybe in 2 weeks, most of the senate will die.

 

[Smithnikov_v1legacy]

I CANNOT SWIPE RIGHT HARD ENOUGH! TAKE ME IN YOUR ARMS, CORONA CHAN!

 

[Marik2]

I CANNOT SWIPE RIGHT HARD ENOUGH! TAKE ME IN YOUR ARMS, CORONA CHAN!

Shes gonna make you stay at home and lose your job.

 

[Marik2]

 

[Trunkage]

I don't think I need to tell anyone here but I will anyway, just in case.

Trump is NOT a doctor

Don't follow his 'advice'. Especially on Twitter. If a conspiracy theory is tested by experts, then believe it. Otherwise, take both as not true.

Or you will pay the price...

https://www.9news.com.au/world/coronavirus-cure-man-dies-taking-drug-donald-trump-recommended-chloroquine-hydroxychloroquine/812dee42-c10b-4cf4-b68c-7e02b25793b6

Fake News wins. Fatality

 

[Eacaraxe_v1legacy]

Trump is NOT a doctor

[...]

Fake News wins. Fatality

Morons ate fish tank cleaner. That's literally what happened.

Meanwhile...this one WaPo story gives up the ghost on this completely:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/2020/03/20/hospitals-doctors-are-wiping-out-supplies-an-unproven-coronavirus-treatment/

The side of the story you're not hearing in "mainstream" news is chloroquine, hydroxychloroquine, and azithromycin were key pharmaceuticals in the earlier SARS-CoV and MERS-CoV outbreaks. Which makes them a drug of key interest and of first resort during the SARS-CoV-2 outbreak. Who's purchasing the drugs and causing shortages, are hospitals buying in bulk to prescribe as off-label prophylaxis and treatment because they're proven effective against coronavirii (just not this particular strain in clinical trials as of yet). This was going on before Trump spoke.

Where this story takes a nasty turn, is that production of these pharmaceuticals had already been low, and in January the price nearly doubled. These drugs are also decades old, meaning they're out of exclusivity and can be mass produced in generic form, which in turn means lower profitability. In other words, the pharmaceutical industry saw there was about to be a major spike in demand due to the SARS-CoV-2 outbreak, and moved to price gouge; being they've since been caught red-handed, the companies which produce them backed off and increased production while restoring the previous price point.

This is why all the talk in the news -- until Trump spoke -- has been about Remdesivir. That being a novel drug would still be under patent, and sparing executive action would enjoy exclusivity which means mega-profits for Gilead -- something of note considering today it was granted orphan drug status. See also, Truvada and Descovy.

 

[Kwak]

I CANNOT SWIPE RIGHT HARD ENOUGH! TAKE ME IN YOUR ARMS, CORONA CHAN!

Meh, no pit hair, pass.

 

[Marik2]

Plot twist. The corona virus is the vaccine, while humans were the virus all along.

dun dun dun

 

[Dalisclock]

Plot twist. The corona virus is the vaccine, while humans were the virus all along.

dun dun dun

WHAT A TWIST!

But then it turns out we were all Werewolves from the future all along!

 

[Marik2]

The murican way will make the virus more of a problem than it should be. We will be like this for a year, while other countries would have solved this in a few months.