CRACKED: "6 Sexist Video Game Problems Even Bigger Than the Breasts"

[Rebel_Raven]

I feel that these topics become useless arguments of "I'm right" "No, I'm RIGHT" and falls short of real discourse. Video games are fiction and fiction is just fantasy, a exaggeration of the creators "vision" of whatever the fuck they want to say. Sometimes they really want to say nothing in particular, have no political or social commentary, they just want to tell a story. And a good story no matter what the content is still a good story. Just because the protagonist may be x-generic male and the plot may be saving y-female-in-distress doesn't detract from it being a good story.
At this point I feel that proponents of the "we need moar strong female leads" should take that as a challenge to write something instead of trying to force others to do it by brow-beating and political correctness bashing.
I don't say that the conversation shouldn't be around but I will say that we're not adding anything by rehashing the same arguments over and over. Someone has to just take initiative and create something different. And more people need to follow that example.
Basically what I feel it boils down to is debate means jack shit without a real action and the only real action isn't to batter down what is already in existence but to build up that which is not. Take fucking risks, do something about it that isn't destructive or abrasive, but constructive and creative.

I disagree, even rehashing the same stuff time, and time, and time again, we're talking about it. It's being talked about, and thus in the eyes of people. We're letting people know we still want female protagonists. It's all some can do.

The problem with making our own stuff, aside from the fact that not everyone has the time, resources, or talent to do that, and no amount of BS will change that is that since when does the industry really pay attention to indie games? I mean seriously? I'm not saying it to crush dreams, but any indie developer that gets the industry to stop being so against women deserves several nobel peace prizes. They'd have shattered te conventional wisdom that women in games harm the game, created a game men and women alike love bringing them together, and made so much money that the industry would have to notice as it's all they care about in the end.

Women getting into the industry to make AAA games? Go for it! But lets not pretend women are necessary for it. Men can write for women, and vice versa. Other mediums prove this like the romantic comedy movies, plus the fact that most of our beloved female figures are created by men in games.

I'm not saying that a person can't make a difference, but I'd say the change needs to happen among those in the industry, producers, developers, etc, that block female protagonists from being made. The people in power over these matters that fight diversity among protagonists need to be replaced by people who aren't so eager to think negative of ethnicity or gender.

Still disagree with that. Lot of guy devs will make what interest them at the current time. Some guys may be curious and want to explore perspective unique to females. It could come at a time that's convenient with the demands of portrayal change but it has nothing to do with that. but it shouldn't be the future burden of all AAA devs to be more politically correct. That's not of their own volition, that's compulsion. ( I.E. I don't have cleavage in games anymore because I'm afraid of the market.)

They'll be open to making more depth nuanced female characters because 'the story' demands it not 48 percentage market compulsions. Babes like Ivy Valentine in Soul Calibur or the weird Dragon Crown sorceress exist in games worlds mostly synonymous with eccentric cultural flash and extreme gender stereotypical warriors. Half-life 2 doesn't have any eye raising visual presentations of women because city 17 is a grounded gestapo controlled future where such a thing would fly in the face of the story that's being created. And it takes indepdendent output. Actual content to change the narrative in the industry. You think hollywood'll magically stop with token babes in films because of people picketing? Or that you could lock Dan Houser in a room and demand rockstar write more politically correct depictions of real world women? It ain't happening. More people have to get involved for entertainment to be diverse, and the winds of change carry everyone else. Cant just expect the boys at the top to concern themselves about every sensibility, they'll just go for broke.

Sure, devs will try and make what it is they want, but lets not overlook that there are people out there that will interfere if thy try to make a female protagonist. Possibly a PoC as well.

Spoiler

http://www.giantbomb.com/sleeping-dogs/3030-29441/
http://www.gamecritics.com/brad-gallaway/brink-no-girls-allowed
http://www.penny-arcade.com/report/article/games-with-female-heroes-dont-sell-because-publishers-dont-support-them
http://www.escapistmagazine.com/news/view/123139-Devs-Had-to-Demand-Female-Focus-Testers-for-The-Last-of-Us
http://www.penny-arcade.com/report/article/remember-mes-surprising-connection-to-facebook-and-why-its-protagonist-had

http://kotaku.com/investigation-a-video-game-studio-from-hell-511872642
http://www.escapistmagazine.com/news/view/123139-Devs-Had-to-Demand-Female-Focus-Testers-for-The-Last-of-Us
http://www.penny-arcade.com/report/article/remember-mes-surprising-connection-to-facebook-and-why-its-protagonist-had
http://popwatch.ew.com/2012/05/01/god-of-war-ascension-multiplayer/ or http://www.gameinformer.com/games/god_of_war_ascension/b/ps3/archive/2012/04/30/sony-unveils-god-of-war-ascensions-multiplayer.aspx
http://uk.gamespot.com/features/fear-of-a-woman-warrior-6404142/
http://www.gamespot.com/news/naughty-dog-insisted-on-female-testers-for-the-last-of-us-6406619
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=evI5pF5h8Ck
http://www.vgcats.com/comics/?strip_id=252 a point made in the form of a joke
http://indigitainment.com/2013/05/08/indigenous-determination-in-game-space/
http://www.vg247.com/2013/03/22/beyond-two-souls-dev-asked-to-show-star-holding-a-gun-on-cover-we-catigorically-refused/
http://www.toybox-games.jp/english0107.html
http://www.gamesindustry.biz/articles/2013-03-20-bastion-developer-teases-transistor-for-pax-east
http://lesbiangamers.com/2008/05/farcry-2-female-character-fiasco/

I'm not pushing for PC so much as getting the industry to stop being so hostile to the idea of a female presense in games.

If developers want to make Ivy Valentines, and Mai Shiranuis, and games like GTA, and other games with topless women, or Bayonetta sequels, I'm not going to try and stop them. I'm a fan of looking at women, too.
Still, can we agree that these overly sexualized portrayals shouldn't be a near relentless norm?
That it might have the hopefully unwanted sideaffect of driving off women new to gaming?

If they want to make a game with all guys, I'm not trying to stop them. I'll be less likely to buy the game though. I'll save my money for more inclusive titles, AKA, Voting with my wallet.

Speaking of voting with my wallet, I've a mild suspicion people have been doing that a very long time leading to a lot of failure in the videogame industry. I.E. Bankruptcies, and general loss of revenue.
Considering the damage the industry's taken , how long until they realize that it might be possible the hostile attitude towards female protagonists might have something to do with it? That if they pandered to women more, they'd be willing to spend more, and maybe have a positive impact in finances?
Hopefully not terribly long with Ubisoft's announcements, and CoD announcing females in multiplayer, and a small smattering of games getting sequels eventually. Whiel it's good news, I'm skeptical of most of it as this cycle happened before, round abouts in the 90's for a few years, then died for longer, only to resurface now.

Right, token women are in chick flicks? Romantic comedies, Twilight, etc.? Alice is Token in the Resident Evil movies? The women in recent horror films are token? The game industry is seriously lagging behind in pretty much every other entertainment media in pandering to both genders.
And guess who dominates the movie industry? Guys.

The book/novel industry is dominated by guys, yet there's plenty of diversity in protagonists.
'd say guys make up the majority of writers.

Women having to get involved isn't necessary. I'm not saying they shouldn't get involved, though! Infact I encourage it, as we need new blood to help create a more egalitarian gaming industry... but pretending that there's guys who can't write for women is a massive absurdity when Lara Croft, Samus, Nilin, probably every last woman in Resident Evil, women in fighting games, women in bioware games, etc. are written by men, or were with likely few exceptions.
The excuse that men can't write fopr women is a crutch for the status quo. The longer we let the industry use this excuse the longer they will, and it might not even be sincere when used.
I find the notion that the game industry can't make female chracters across the spectrum of representation laughable. It has before, it can again. It still is, though in very small doses and teases of a brighter future for female characters.

I'm not looking to force anyone to create female protagonists, I'm just requesting they do, being loud until they do, and am hoping the game industry stops being hostile to the idea of female protagonists. I'm not sure where the heck you got the idea I'm trying to force anyone to do anything.

 

[shadowuser10141]

Ok, looking at minecraft... who in the industry is trying to emulate minecraft in any way, shape, or form? What real change and impact has it had on the industry? Has it changed anything? I feel all the answers point towards negative. Popular as Minecraft is, it's not -that- popular.

What do you mean it's not -that- popular? It's the #1 game in YouTube history. Not Call of Duty.
Millions of people watch Yogscast, Skydoesminecraft, Captain Sparklez and many others.

It sold 12 million on PC, 8 million on Xbox and 10 million on iPhone.
That's 30 million copies. That's makes it one of the highest selling games of this generation.

It has influenced the devs of Terraria (another huge game), Cube World, Ace of Spades, Guncraft, Yogventures

Developers have also copied Minecraft's early access model. Steam now sells early access games.

 

[shadowuser10141]

It's a article from Cracked that starts with the words rape culture. It should be taken as seriously as an article on Fox News that starts with a quote from Atlas Shrugged.

It has other feminist buzzwords like slut shaming.
I have never fully understood what these words are supposed to mean.

 

[Amir Kondori]

All I can say is that I love titties and I love video games and if those things happen to coincide, well shit, I love that even more.

 

[Aiddon_v1legacy]

eh, it's a pretty run-of-the-mill article. They're mostly pointing out the obvious. The only claim that's bullshit is pretending Samus Aran had a personality except for Fusion and Other M.

 

[Rebel_Raven]

Ok, looking at minecraft... who in the industry is trying to emulate minecraft in any way, shape, or form? What real change and impact has it had on the industry? Has it changed anything? I feel all the answers point towards negative. Popular as Minecraft is, it's not -that- popular.

What do you mean it's not -that- popular? It's the #1 game in YouTube history. Not Call of Duty.
Millions of people watch Yogscast, Skydoesminecraft, Captain Sparklez and many others.

It sold 12 million on PC, 8 million on Xbox and 10 million on iPhone.
That's 30 million copies. That's makes it one of the highest selling games of this generation.

It has influenced the devs of Terraria (another huge game), Cube World, Ace of Spades, Guncraft, Yogventures

Developers have also copied Minecraft's early access model. Steam now sells early access games.

When I say it's not that popular I mean that it hadn't influenced the AAA world hasn't taken notice. It hasn't made as apparent of a dent in the gaming industry as people want to believe, or else we'd prolly see AAA version.
At best the genre of this sort of game hasn't taken hold outside of other indie games.

The early access model doesn't really cover the game influencing the gaming world in how games are made, but more how they're accessed.

It's a favorite of people, but the larger gaming industry just hasn't tken notice, it seems.

 

[Dante dynamite]

Wow it is kind of sad how much better the discussion on the Cracked comments are. Its become so bad here I can tell what people are going to post the second I see their avatar because they can do nothing but spout the same thing over and over again regardless what they are told it's no longer a discussion but a shouting match of conflicting opinions.

Why do people keep saying "just make the game" to both people and developers it's not that easy what if they just make a generic game with a female protagonist that's basically a man or they make a good game but it just doesn't have an audience because they didn't do market research.

Also why is it so hard to believe that women would like different types of games instead of just what we have now but with females? They may want a whole new genre that may be currently unpopular and dangerous. Just because you like certain types of games doesn't mean others do. Why is it so bad to think that the types of triple A games just don't to appeal to them not because of the characters or story but just because they don't like most types of games in general.

But my biggest complaint is do you have any idea how much of a minority you are think about it how many people do you think give enough of a shit to go on gaming sites that buy Triple A games at most 10mil now how many even care enough beyond the biggest games lets say that its about 7 mil then lets take approximately half of that as women so that will be 3.5mil at the very most, then take out those who don't give a flying fuck about stuff like characters, story, and this topic your down to about 1-2 mil at most split among different genres and its not only for women it for guys as well there is a huge amount of the gaming population that doesn't give the slightest of shits.

Why is it hard to believe that its a problem of homogenization and if I also seem like I am repeating my self is because no one has ever answered me on this I have always been ignored on this.

 

[shadowuser10141]

Ok, looking at minecraft... who in the industry is trying to emulate minecraft in any way, shape, or form? What real change and impact has it had on the industry? Has it changed anything? I feel all the answers point towards negative. Popular as Minecraft is, it's not -that- popular.

What do you mean it's not -that- popular? It's the #1 game in YouTube history. Not Call of Duty.
Millions of people watch Yogscast, Skydoesminecraft, Captain Sparklez and many others.

It sold 12 million on PC, 8 million on Xbox and 10 million on iPhone.
That's 30 million copies. That's makes it one of the highest selling games of this generation.

It has influenced the devs of Terraria (another huge game), Cube World, Ace of Spades, Guncraft, Yogventures

Developers have also copied Minecraft's early access model. Steam now sells early access games.

When I say it's not that popular I mean that it hadn't influenced the AAA world hasn't taken notice. It hasn't made as apparent of a dent in the gaming industry as people want to believe, or else we'd prolly see AAA version.
At best the genre of this sort of game hasn't taken hold outside of other indie games.

The early access model doesn't really cover the game influencing the gaming world in how games are made, but more how they're accessed.

It's a favorite of people, but the larger gaming industry just hasn't tken notice, it seems.

The vast majority of AAA developers will never make a game selling anywhere near 30 million.
Also most popular game in YouTube history: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cPJUBQd-PNM - 114 million views.
The AAA world not taking notice does not make it any less influential or relevant.
Blockbuster didn't take notice of Netflix, MySpace didn't take notice of Facebook.
I know you don't accept this. I doesn't matter though, because whether you believe it or not it's still true.
If you're happy with annual cut-and-paste Cod and Assassin's Creed sequels then that's fine.

 

[Ravinoff]

It's a article from Cracked that starts with the words rape culture. It should be taken as seriously as an article on Fox News that starts with a quote from Atlas Shrugged.

It has other feminist buzzwords like slut shaming.
I have never fully understood what these words are supposed to mean.

They all mean the same thing: "look at me! I'm a victim!" This article was utter garbage even by Cracked standards, and I can see why the author didn't put their name on it. I'm hesitant to wonder how much it was edited before it was published, Cracked are known for making edits completely against what the author wants.

 

[Warachia]

Amongst other things, they claim that The Last Of Us and BioShock Infinite are sexist because Ellie and Elizabeth need the help of the male main character. >.<

No, it's that these capable or in one case powerful characters turn phenomenally stupid and need to be led around on a leash because REASONS that is at issue here, not that they need a man's help. Or not merely that they need a man's help, but how desperately incompetent they become without it.

I mean, this is explained directly in the artile. Did you not understand it or are you deliberately ignoring it?

The article says "Elizabeth was born with the ability to tear portals in time and space, then learned to pick locks anyway, then sat patiently in prison until a penis arrived to save her." Because CLEARLY she was just lazy, and there was nothing to stop her from leaving right?

Also, Ellie doesn't need the help of Joel, she'd have cried regardless of whether or not he was there, the article saying that Joel was the reason she cried is ridiculous, clearly she should have either had no reaction to murdering somebody, or just kept murdering people.

 

[Warachia]

One by one the old pillars of the community were taken out by the banhammer, the voices of reason were cowed into quiet submission, the once friendly and well known moderators became fickle anonymous enforcers, and slowly rule after rule created a maze of etiquette that cause all to eventually fall to the banhammer.

Most of the Mods are still friendly, if not all of them. ;_;

Yes, the rules may have gotten stricter over time, but if you can't prove someone wrong without insulting them, then there's really no point in replying, is there?

OT: People do realize that Cracked articles are almost never serious, right?

This one certainly is, you can tell by how it tries to be relevant, address real life (it's their #1 point) and by what they say in their last paragraph.

 

[freaper]

I recently learned that The Escapist hates women. Which, in hindsight, is kind of like recently learning the sun rises in the same place ever day.

You mean the monolithic creature that is the Escapist? Oh, please do tell, where can I find this curious being?

 

[Rebel_Raven]

Ok, looking at minecraft... who in the industry is trying to emulate minecraft in any way, shape, or form? What real change and impact has it had on the industry? Has it changed anything? I feel all the answers point towards negative. Popular as Minecraft is, it's not -that- popular.

What do you mean it's not -that- popular? It's the #1 game in YouTube history. Not Call of Duty.
Millions of people watch Yogscast, Skydoesminecraft, Captain Sparklez and many others.

It sold 12 million on PC, 8 million on Xbox and 10 million on iPhone.
That's 30 million copies. That's makes it one of the highest selling games of this generation.

It has influenced the devs of Terraria (another huge game), Cube World, Ace of Spades, Guncraft, Yogventures

Developers have also copied Minecraft's early access model. Steam now sells early access games.

When I say it's not that popular I mean that it hadn't influenced the AAA world hasn't taken notice. It hasn't made as apparent of a dent in the gaming industry as people want to believe, or else we'd prolly see AAA version.
At best the genre of this sort of game hasn't taken hold outside of other indie games.

The early access model doesn't really cover the game influencing the gaming world in how games are made, but more how they're accessed.

It's a favorite of people, but the larger gaming industry just hasn't tken notice, it seems.

The vast majority of AAA developers will never make a game selling anywhere near 30 million.
Also most popular game in YouTube history: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cPJUBQd-PNM - 114 million views.
The AAA world not taking notice does not make it any less influential or relevant.
Blockbuster didn't take notice of Netflix, MySpace didn't take notice of Facebook.
I know you don't accept this. I doesn't matter though, because whether you believe it or not it's still true.
If you're happy with annual cut-and-paste Cod and Assassin's Creed sequels then that's fine.

I'm not denying the popularity of minecraft, but what has minecraft -really- changed? I haven't seen any huge ripples of change here.
Yeah, the early access thing, yeah it spawned some games built on it's engine, or similar games largely on PC, but I'm not seeing it have much of an influence on gaming and it's one of the greatest indie games ever.
The rise of survival horrors, the side scrolling types, the metroidvanias, and everything popular on PC I don't see much impact on consoles.
People are overestimating the impact Minecraft had on the industry itself, IMO.
I'm not saying it's impossible to see indie games do this, but I'm still waiting to really see it, even with the rise of indie games.

 

[Vegosiux]

I'm not denying the popularity of minecraft, but what has minecraft -really- changed? I haven't seen any huge ripples of change here.
Yeah, the early access thing, yeah it spawned some games built on it's engine, or similar games largely on PC, but I'm not seeing it have much of an influence on gaming and it's one of the greatest indie games ever.
The rise of survival horrors, the side scrolling types, the metroidvanias, and everything popular on PC I don't see much impact on consoles.
People are overestimating the impact Minecraft had on the industry itself, IMO.
I'm not saying it's impossible to see indie games do this, but I'm still waiting to really see it, even with the rise of indie games.

Okay, let me just clear one thing up here.

When you're talking about what games can change the scene, are you talking about "The One Game to Change It all", or are you talking about "No individual snowflake in an avalanche has ever changed anything"? Because the way I see it, you seem to be a bit fixated on how there has to be a groundbreaking game that will turn the industry inside out, and not giving enough credit to a large number of not-world-shattering games setting a trend.

Now it's ultimately the end consumer that technically has the final say in anything, but things are a lot more complex, I mean, there are people who get paid on figuring out how to make us think we want what they're selling us, and sometimes what they're selling us is videogames...

Still, I would be quite confident to make a claim that no single game can shift the course of the entire AAA industry in this regard.

 

[shadowuser10141]

Ok, looking at minecraft... who in the industry is trying to emulate minecraft in any way, shape, or form? What real change and impact has it had on the industry? Has it changed anything? I feel all the answers point towards negative. Popular as Minecraft is, it's not -that- popular.

What do you mean it's not -that- popular? It's the #1 game in YouTube history. Not Call of Duty.
Millions of people watch Yogscast, Skydoesminecraft, Captain Sparklez and many others.

It sold 12 million on PC, 8 million on Xbox and 10 million on iPhone.
That's 30 million copies. That's makes it one of the highest selling games of this generation.

It has influenced the devs of Terraria (another huge game), Cube World, Ace of Spades, Guncraft, Yogventures

Developers have also copied Minecraft's early access model. Steam now sells early access games.

When I say it's not that popular I mean that it hadn't influenced the AAA world hasn't taken notice. It hasn't made as apparent of a dent in the gaming industry as people want to believe, or else we'd prolly see AAA version.
At best the genre of this sort of game hasn't taken hold outside of other indie games.

The early access model doesn't really cover the game influencing the gaming world in how games are made, but more how they're accessed.

It's a favorite of people, but the larger gaming industry just hasn't tken notice, it seems.

The vast majority of AAA developers will never make a game selling anywhere near 30 million.
Also most popular game in YouTube history: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cPJUBQd-PNM - 114 million views.
The AAA world not taking notice does not make it any less influential or relevant.
Blockbuster didn't take notice of Netflix, MySpace didn't take notice of Facebook.
I know you don't accept this. I doesn't matter though, because whether you believe it or not it's still true.
If you're happy with annual cut-and-paste Cod and Assassin's Creed sequels then that's fine.

I'm not denying the popularity of minecraft, but what has minecraft -really- changed? I haven't seen any huge ripples of change here.
Yeah, the early access thing, yeah it spawned some games built on it's engine, or similar games largely on PC, but I'm not seeing it have much of an influence on gaming and it's one of the greatest indie games ever.
The rise of survival horrors, the side scrolling types, the metroidvanias, and everything popular on PC I don't see much impact on consoles.
People are overestimating the impact Minecraft had on the industry itself, IMO.
I'm not saying it's impossible to see indie games do this, but I'm still waiting to really see it, even with the rise of indie games.

The fact that the AAA console industry isn't adapting to stuff like Minecraft is their own fault. They didn't adapt to Angry Birds either.
Do you even watch Jim Sterling? These companies are dinosaurs.
That's the main reason I play PC a lot more than console. On console you either have annual sequels (CoD, Assassins Creed) or flavor of the month games (The Last of Us) that people will play for a month then never touch again.

 

[TomWiley]

Upsetting over what Cracked has to say about sexism in video games is like upsetting over YouTube comments not accurately describing the political process.

 

[carnex]

I'm not denying the popularity of minecraft, but what has minecraft -really- changed? I haven't seen any huge ripples of change here.
Yeah, the early access thing, yeah it spawned some games built on it's engine, or similar games largely on PC, but I'm not seeing it have much of an influence on gaming and it's one of the greatest indie games ever.
The rise of survival horrors, the side scrolling types, the metroidvanias, and everything popular on PC I don't see much impact on consoles.
People are overestimating the impact Minecraft had on the industry itself, IMO.
I'm not saying it's impossible to see indie games do this, but I'm still waiting to really see it, even with the rise of indie games.

The fact that the AAA console industry isn't adapting to stuff like Minecraft is their own fault. They didn't adapt to Angry Birds either.
Do you even watch Jim Sterling? These companies are dinosaurs.
That's the main reason I play PC a lot more than console. On console you either have annual sequels (CoD, Assassins Creed) or flavor of the month games (The Last of Us) that people will play for a month then never touch again.

I mentioned this time and time again

If big publishers make cheap games they have to compete with indie market and AAA market. If they make AAA game they compete only with AAA market because indies and small publishers can't pour 10+Mil USD in one game. Therefore they make AAA games since those have less competition. Capcom was, in the beginning of this generation, huge supporter of XBLA games but receded to A-AAA market. And the reason is resentment towards big publishers that shuffle among indies and harder competition.

Huge games are greater risk, but success percentage is actually far better than among small games. Also while failures hurt much more, successes generate far greater profit.

 

[Rebel_Raven]

I'm not denying the popularity of minecraft, but what has minecraft -really- changed? I haven't seen any huge ripples of change here.
Yeah, the early access thing, yeah it spawned some games built on it's engine, or similar games largely on PC, but I'm not seeing it have much of an influence on gaming and it's one of the greatest indie games ever.
The rise of survival horrors, the side scrolling types, the metroidvanias, and everything popular on PC I don't see much impact on consoles.
People are overestimating the impact Minecraft had on the industry itself, IMO.
I'm not saying it's impossible to see indie games do this, but I'm still waiting to really see it, even with the rise of indie games.

Okay, let me just clear one thing up here.

When you're talking about what games can change the scene, are you talking about "The One Game to Change It all", or are you talking about "No individual snowflake in an avalanche has ever changed anything"? Because the way I see it, you seem to be a bit fixated on how there has to be a groundbreaking game that will turn the industry inside out, and not giving enough credit to a large number of not-world-shattering games setting a trend.

Now it's ultimately the end consumer that technically has the final say in anything, but things are a lot more complex, I mean, there are people who get paid on figuring out how to make us think we want what they're selling us, and sometimes what they're selling us is videogames...

Still, I would be quite confident to make a claim that no single game can shift the course of the entire AAA industry in this regard.

I'm talking about both, really.
There won't likely be that one ground breaking game, hence why I'm down on Minecraft's influence on gaming. I won't say it's impossible to make a game with a female lead that's so damned great that the industry gives up it's hostility towards them, but it's incredibly unlikely.

And even with the indie scene by and large, I'm not seeing much influence outside the indie scene. I mean there's a massive proliferation of First Person Survival Horrors, side scrollers, control the Hand(s) games, but I don't see much influence on the industry as a whole. None of them are really leading the game industry outside of indie games.

Why? None of them made enough money that the industry outside of indie wants to cash in on the game concepts. Until they do, their actual impact is not even on my radar. I'm not knocking the fun factor, mind you.

I'd say it'll be extremely difficult to try and show the gaming industry what we want based on indie games, or voting with our wallets even. See, Market Testers are pretty flawed. Not all of them, but enough to keep hampering game industry maturation.
Lets look at Overstrike turned Fuse due to market testing. I loved overstrike. It had soul. Now? Meh.
Lets look at Naughty Dog having to ask for female members of test groups.
Market testers poison the well. They cherry pick, they get groups to confirm things, not get opinions, and a lot of screwy things. Again, not all of them, but enough.
Moreover test groups are flawed. They're more inclined to say what they think the testers, and the rest of the group want to hear. And here's a stumbling block in that they say they want something like CoD, or God of War (the God of War clones sure died off quick, though, huh?) but they already have what they think/know they want so they aren't likely to buy it again.

The real answer, IMO, is to give Devs free reign, which they don't always have.
My Spoiler posted a bit back is full of incidents where circumstances, usully pressure from above, forced women out of a game.

 

[Rebel_Raven]

Ok, looking at minecraft... who in the industry is trying to emulate minecraft in any way, shape, or form? What real change and impact has it had on the industry? Has it changed anything? I feel all the answers point towards negative. Popular as Minecraft is, it's not -that- popular.

What do you mean it's not -that- popular? It's the #1 game in YouTube history. Not Call of Duty.
Millions of people watch Yogscast, Skydoesminecraft, Captain Sparklez and many others.

It sold 12 million on PC, 8 million on Xbox and 10 million on iPhone.
That's 30 million copies. That's makes it one of the highest selling games of this generation.

It has influenced the devs of Terraria (another huge game), Cube World, Ace of Spades, Guncraft, Yogventures

Developers have also copied Minecraft's early access model. Steam now sells early access games.

When I say it's not that popular I mean that it hadn't influenced the AAA world hasn't taken notice. It hasn't made as apparent of a dent in the gaming industry as people want to believe, or else we'd prolly see AAA version.
At best the genre of this sort of game hasn't taken hold outside of other indie games.

The early access model doesn't really cover the game influencing the gaming world in how games are made, but more how they're accessed.

It's a favorite of people, but the larger gaming industry just hasn't tken notice, it seems.

The vast majority of AAA developers will never make a game selling anywhere near 30 million.
Also most popular game in YouTube history: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cPJUBQd-PNM - 114 million views.
The AAA world not taking notice does not make it any less influential or relevant.
Blockbuster didn't take notice of Netflix, MySpace didn't take notice of Facebook.
I know you don't accept this. I doesn't matter though, because whether you believe it or not it's still true.
If you're happy with annual cut-and-paste Cod and Assassin's Creed sequels then that's fine.

I'm not denying the popularity of minecraft, but what has minecraft -really- changed? I haven't seen any huge ripples of change here.
Yeah, the early access thing, yeah it spawned some games built on it's engine, or similar games largely on PC, but I'm not seeing it have much of an influence on gaming and it's one of the greatest indie games ever.
The rise of survival horrors, the side scrolling types, the metroidvanias, and everything popular on PC I don't see much impact on consoles.
People are overestimating the impact Minecraft had on the industry itself, IMO.
I'm not saying it's impossible to see indie games do this, but I'm still waiting to really see it, even with the rise of indie games.

The fact that the AAA console industry isn't adapting to stuff like Minecraft is their own fault. They didn't adapt to Angry Birds either.
Do you even watch Jim Sterling? These companies are dinosaurs.
That's the main reason I play PC a lot more than console. On console you either have annual sequels (CoD, Assassins Creed) or flavor of the month games (The Last of Us) that people will play for a month then never touch again.

Yeah, I understand they aren't adapting. They might be trying to, but it's killing the industry. It's like walking to the hospital while bleeding out. This is what I'm talking about in terms of lack of impact from the indie world. And as great as indie games are, I don't think I could live off them.

Also, I watch Jim Sterling every time he makes a vid. Thank god for Jim!

See, this is the disconnect between your gaming experience, and mine more or less. My laptop can barely play a lot of games, and by barely play, I mean I'm lucky to get the game started before things bog down to death, and I play on most of the lowest settings, and indie games can give me a hassel, like minecraft. My -tablet- can run minecraft, but my laptop lags like a mofo on it.
Thus I play console games, and I talk from more a console gamer's point of view than anything. I can talk PC gaming, but I honestly prefer consoles.

 

[Rebel_Raven]

I'm not denying the popularity of minecraft, but what has minecraft -really- changed? I haven't seen any huge ripples of change here.
Yeah, the early access thing, yeah it spawned some games built on it's engine, or similar games largely on PC, but I'm not seeing it have much of an influence on gaming and it's one of the greatest indie games ever.
The rise of survival horrors, the side scrolling types, the metroidvanias, and everything popular on PC I don't see much impact on consoles.
People are overestimating the impact Minecraft had on the industry itself, IMO.
I'm not saying it's impossible to see indie games do this, but I'm still waiting to really see it, even with the rise of indie games.

The fact that the AAA console industry isn't adapting to stuff like Minecraft is their own fault. They didn't adapt to Angry Birds either.
Do you even watch Jim Sterling? These companies are dinosaurs.
That's the main reason I play PC a lot more than console. On console you either have annual sequels (CoD, Assassins Creed) or flavor of the month games (The Last of Us) that people will play for a month then never touch again.

I mentioned this time and time again

If big publishers make cheap games they have to compete with indie market and AAA market. If they make AAA game they compete only with AAA market because indies and small publishers can't pour 10+Mil USD in one game. Therefore they make AAA games since those have less competition. Capcom was, in the beginning of this generation, huge supporter of XBLA games but receded to A-AAA market. And the reason is resentment towards big publishers that shuffle among indies and harder competition.

Huge games are greater risk, but success percentage is actually far better than among small games. Also while failures hurt much more, successes generate far greater profit.

But there's a middle ground that has near zero competition. It's barely been tapped into. The 10-30 dollar stand alone DLC games. Blood Dragon, Undead Nightmare, liberty city stories, and so forth. The upcoming HD remake of AC: liberation (I hope!) and Ubisoft's general gameplan to go into these games.

I'm not asking for huge games from big companies. I'm just hoping the devs get more freedom. these middle of the road games may help.