CRACKED: "6 Sexist Video Game Problems Even Bigger Than the Breasts"

[Yuuki]

We should just have two categories of games, "games that are sexist against women" and "games that aren't sexist against women". The primary authority on deciding which games goes where should be Anita Sarkeesian (who better than her, right?).
Feminists can then analyze both categories and take their findings to developers/writers.
Then the writers can proceed to not give a fuck and toss all that info into a bin, because game development/writing isn't done according to requests/commissions like what you see on DeviantArt, developers should be able to make what they want to make and face criticism (or ignore criticism) of their work later

 

[Reeve]

I do find it funny that I got an advert for breast enhancement cream at the bottom of the article

Breast enhancement...cream?

Is that real? Does it work?!!1

 

[Calibanbutcher]

I do find it funny that I got an advert for breast enhancement cream at the bottom of the article

Breast enhancement...cream?

Is that real? Does it work?!!1

Of course it works. It can turn your puny breast into something closely resembling a slab of kevlar, capable of withstanding close-range gunshots and knife-attacks.
Granted, the purple-ish colour is a bit of a turn-off and the scales take a bit of time getting used to, but other than that, I highly recommend the breast enhancement cream.


On topic:
Meh, not the worst article on the subject but certainly nothing close to being "insightful", I don't really think this brought anything new to the table, it just repeated popular and less popular opinions and packaged them in list-form, which, as we all know, is cracked's bread and butter. The fact that it wasn't really funny nor entertaining did not help it, seeing as I go to cracked for entertainment purposes and this article didn't manage to make me laugh or even chuckle, nor did it have a mind-blowing impact, as some of their sciencey articles often do.

 

[Sexual Harassment Panda]

Amongst other things, they claim that The Last Of Us and BioShock Infinite are sexist because Ellie and Elizabeth need the help of the male main character. >.<

No, it's that these capable or in one case powerful characters turn phenomenally stupid and need to be led around on a leash because REASONS that is at issue here, not that they need a man's help. Or not merely that they need a man's help, but how desperately incompetent they become without it.

I mean, this is explained directly in the artile. Did you not understand it or are you deliberately ignoring it?

Yeah, characters that have never once experienced actual combat or the actual world outside of their safe little bubbles prior to meeting the main character should not become emotionally and psychologically fragile people when faced with bullets wizzing by their heads or blood thirsty monsters want to eat out their throats, no, they need to be the space marines buried under thirteen inches of armor and can take a bazooka shell to the face before they'll so much as flinch. Ellie was not an all-powerful character - she was a child with somewhat of an attitude problem towards the people she wasn't familiar with, and Elizabeth was a woman who had been contained by a hulking giant of a monster all of her life - sure she had the power to open up tears in reality, but she was also afraid of what was on the other side or what might happen if she failed - for instance, the scene where she and Booker are in the elevator and she opens a tear and the Songbird flies towards them - yeah, an all powerful character can be afraid and it isn't wrong to see them as being human rather than androids.
Jeez, I'm sick and tired of seeing people think how either all women need to be emotionally dead powerhouses or have practically no women at all because "oohh, this female character has emotions, she must be weak".
I'm for the idea that if male characters can be portrayed in a rainbow of variation, then females can as well, and that includes the emotionally weak, hysterical, or ones that show weakness when in the face of danger when compared to the leading character who is established as a person who has experience with day-to-day life threatening situations and combat. A character unfamiliar with such things needs to be led through the battlefield, not leading themselves - it'd be like a toddler trying to fly a jet against a pilot who has over ten years experience, it just isn't realistic to see something like this happen.

TL;DR: You and I don't agree on this point

I love how you just add the proper context and it makes the criticism dissolve into a pile of obvious pettiness. Plot-points, it seems... "don't exist in a vacuum".

I don't think it's weird to think that a 15 year old girl might be a bit emotional after caving a man's head in for the first time. It would be weird if she wasn't.

I didn't care for the article.

"There's nothing wrong with a hero-rescue tale, but it doesn't always have to be boy saves girl."

It's not. Look harder. Rescue missions are in just about every action game, including CoD. Try focusing less on Mario & Zelda. Gaming is bigger than Mario and Zelda.

"The developers said they wanted the players to care for Lara and protect her. Horseshit. I didn't want to protect her, I wanted to smack her and tell her to get her shit together."

For real? Is this humour?

'"Rape culture" is the normalization of sexual violence against women, treating it like something that just happens and blaming or shaming the victims. You see it in the news: If you can replace "rape" with "rain" and the story still works, that's rape culture. Was the woman wearing too little? Out too late? Would she have been fine if she'd stayed at home reading a nice book on etiquette for ladies?'

Is this the old "pointing out that women can do things to limit opportunity = it's women's fault if it happens" thing? Can you not allow some middle-ground?

"In video games, this normalization reduces rape to a special effect to shock the player, motivate the hero, establish the villain, or even make a joke, with no more thought given to the victim than to an empty bullet casing. It's something that only happens to women, a subtle punishment just for daring to be women. When games mirror this mode of violence, it's proble-fucked-up-matic and serves to further encourage this type of mentality and attitude toward rape."

Yes, plot-points are there to give meaning and context to the player. Well observed. You could use this argument to trivialize anything in the story...

Is there even much rape or attempted rape in games? I can't think of much. Mafia 2 is the first thing that comes to mind. That wasn't a "they got pinned down, that's got a rapey vibe" kind of thing either, that was a very definite attempt at rape, happening to a man.

I do think there's a point to be made about female representation in games. I would just rather people didn't lie to make it. Hyperbole is the enemy, and probably has a preaching to the choir effect. People who agree, agree... nothing won there. People who don't agree are more likely to think you're a sensationalist ass.

 

[[REDACTED]]

This is a learning experience, Escapist. Go down to the comments, arrange by votes, read. That is how you do sexism discussions.

 

[Shadowstar38]

]This is a learning experience, Escapist. Go down to the comments, arrange by votes, read. That is how you do sexism discussions.

That implies that a comedy site can handle this better than us.

...Who am I kidding. Any site could.

 

[broca]

...And with websites that really are feminist like RPS or Kotaku (instead of just publishing a few articles about it from time to time which can easily be ignored like Cracked does) i don't see why liking them in the past, when this stuff was less dominant, and not liking them now after they have changed should create cognitive dissonance.

I ask about cognitive dissonance, because obviously (for RPS anyway) these smart, observant writers didn't just magically get stupid, or decide to jump on a feminist bandwagon.

Ok, i see the problem now. You make two basic assumptions to come to the conclusion that there has to be cognitive dissonance and i disagree with both of them. First, you assume that people think the same way about the RPS writers you do ("they are observant and smart") and then you assume that disagreement with their feminist focus or individual feminist positions means that people think the RPS writers are stupid.

They engaged with the discussion and in their capacity as game journalists, came to the conclusion that these women are onto something. That many of their readers didn't is interesting. The fact that many game journalists are seeing things the feminist way, but many in their audiences aren't, is also interesting.

First, there aren't that many games journalists that are really feminists. Many probably agree that gaming has gender issues, but that doesn't mean that they are feminists, the same way that me thinking that we need better social security doesn't make me a communist. Also, i don't know why you assume that the opinion of a games journalist is worth more than that of his audience, as you know nothing about this audience and how they came to their opinion.

Normally the only differences of opinion you tend to see is when a critic gives a negative review of a game people generally like, but these feminism discussions are something else entirely.

Basically my question boils down to "why do you no longer see eye to eye with those writer chaps? Don't you find that at all strange?" I've got my own theory, but it isn't very flattering for those who disagree with the writers.

I really don't see your point. Someones opinions on video games and on social issues are two completely different things, so that agreeing to just one of them is perfectly valid. Or to put it in your terms: i never saw eye to eye with those writer chaps on social issues (or politics or anything aside from games), so i really don't know why you find me disagreeing with them on this topics strange.

 

[broca]

That article is a brilliant example of the phrase "if you look hard enough for sexism, you will find it". Some feminists can even find sexism/misogyny in a glass of water, it's a rather remarkable ability of theirs. I won't name names, but I'm sure most of us know at least one

I really want to see someone do that now, or for some other item.. like maybe an orange? my cup of tea, why i own a cat...

someone needs to make this a website of its own.

It's not exactly what you're looking for, but perhaps close enough

http://isthisfeminist.tumblr.com/

 

[makano]

My whole opinion on all this warning Do not say TLR The cat in the hat has more words than this and you read that didn't you?

Better start contacting any and all people who write story's and write laws in.
Want a example of what this road leads to? see this
"All fiction that is written henceforth must meet government and Special interest groups authorization to make sure that know one may take offense. A person would face up to 25 to life with no chance of release if found to break any of the guide lines set below

No black characters who fall under the "offensive" label
No women who have "larger" than average breasts
Each work of fiction must have a straight white male as the antagonist
The protagonist must conform to the "minority" standards i.e:
must be bigenderfluid/trans/demisexual
must be a victim of the antagonist
must love feminism
must not use the wrong pronouns to address anyone
must be in a wheelchair/disabled in someway
must not appropriate other cultures:like using any thing connected to native American or anything that may cause offense to another culture."


Do you really want a law like this one day?
Or do you want the freedom to pick what you like?

You Americans all shout about your 1st amendment but this law would take it away. This is where there movement is heading control over what you make up.

Before someone says otherwise i happen to love women i am not a racist nor do i seek to offend anyone i simply love games/books/movies/fiction if we put a quota on fiction who will bother making it? Do you want J.K.Rowling to check if any of her characters offend anyone? mandated by a quota. Am i going to see a movie full of people who have no business being in that situation/timeframe just to fit a damn quota?.

Someones sexual identity/race should not be in the forefront of there problem the only exception to this is if the movie/fiction focused on that aspect. Tell me who the fuck cares if character x is gay when aliens have just blown up the damn sun? tell me please should they all have shirts on that say "I am gay" "i am a woman" "i am a male but i identify as a space donkey" it's not relevant.

 

[keniakittykat]

Okay, can we all please stop labeling Princess Zelda as a damsell? She hasn't been a damsel since the second game! Sure, she has to be saved every once in a while, but the reason she's captured is because she has the triforce of wisdom, divine power or royal position not because she's a pretty lady and the bad guy wants her, or because she's just stolen away from the hero.

In twilight princess (The game the writer used images from). Zelda surrenders to the Twilight invasion is because she chooses to protect her subjects before herself.

Seriously, the legend of zelda is the least sexist game series ever. It has interesting, well rounded characters from all ages, sizes and even species. Almost every important character is female. Sure, Link himself is male, but he would wander around hyrule aimlessly for ages if he didn't get help from someone along his travels

(Navi, Tetra, Midna, Zelda, Fi, Great fairies, Impa, Saria, Malon, Marin, Din, Nayru, Queen Ambi, Telma, Rutella, The old woman, the prostitute from the second game, All of them female)

 

[BQE]

I am noticing a trend.

• Person A: News about something relating to women. Use the word bandwagon. Be as dismissive as possible. Laugh. Pretend to ask for opinions.
  
  Person B: Bring up the same arguments that have been said over and over and over and over.
  
  Person A: Bandwagon. Dismissive. Don't care. Bandwagon. Laugh. Bandwagon.
  
  Repeat thread until... forever.

It's pretty clear almost no one replying to these threads is interested in talking to anyone. It's pretty clear they are simply interested in flexing and shouting their words like it's a Youtube comment. I don't remember ever actually seeing a real discussion wherein ideas are exchanged and thoughts pondered. Questions are loaded. Minds are made. Conversation is a trap.

What do you think constitutes a constructive conversation? (Also why should every thread have some purpose or progressive end goal? A platform for people to say what they want about the topic is surely just as legitimate a use as any other?)

A thread "with no purpose or progressive goal" is just that - purposeless. I despise this aspect of the digital age. Now that (almost) everyone in the developed world has constant access to a multitude of visible social mediums -- Twitter, Facebook, Youtube, internet forums, etc. -- we've got this grossly ego fueled generations that simply want to say words as often as possible. Browse Youtube. Browse this forum. Browse Facebook. Just look around. There's a cavalcade of people genuinely saying nothing of any relevance, just because they can.

I first noticed this on Youtube. I began to wonder why some people would comment the way they did. I would see things like this: "I like that brand of shoe." I'd stop and think to myself. What is this person actually trying to do? Do they think anyone cares that they like that brand of shoe in some music video? Were they hoping to share a conversation about the shoe? What has been gained by them taking the time to type out those words?

Twitter is even worse. People just type things they see or think. What is it about saying your opinion that interests? People just say shit. I don't understand. We're social creatures. We like to talk. But this isn't talking. This is people simply saying what they thing and leaving it at that. This isn't an invitation to debate. A sharing of ideas. A kind word to a stranger. This is just something they blissfully spew out and then walk away from.

To bring it back around - this type of mentality has extended to actual conversation, where now, in places like this, people say things they've no interested in logically defending and show no attempt to ever consider other information or open their mind. I don't expect everyone to be swayed by every argument. But when the majority of dialog seems to be "This is my opinion." "Well this is mine." "Well you're wrong." "No you." I have to stop to wonder why we all exist lol

Oh I love you! I've been waiting to see other people realize and be disgusted by the absolutely horrifying waste of words and space being done these days! This particular phenomenon has been bothering me especially on this site. I see so many threads where things aren't really being said, or people who have a post count in the thousands simply due to slack-jawed concordance. I typically try to refrain some entering a conversation I feel I can't add something to, or take something away from.

That being said, I really appreciate you bringing light to this and may have to record your discourse for later use. If you don't mind of course.

 

[Moth_Monk]

It's not a waste of space. It's digital not physical, after all. The threads on the Escapist probably constitute a mere, few MB - at the very most. It's not like it's being printed on tree-skin, right?

 

[Lady Larunai]

I do find it funny that I got an advert for breast enhancement cream at the bottom of the article

Breast enhancement...cream?

Is that real? Does it work?!!1

Probably as much as the penis enhancement pills in most peoples junk mail would.

 

[xdiesp]

Just politically correctness gone wrong. The same people would be burning books, given enough power (certainly all books from male-dominated ages have something wrong in them right?).

 

[BrainWalker]

I don't think people who are opposed to discussions of sexism in gaming and make ridiculously reductive counter-arguments aren't actually reading anything that people with differing opinions and/or experiences are trying to say. That is at the heart of the problem and serves to perpetuate it.

 

[VondeVon]

Although I think the Last of Us objection missed the point entirely, I think the rest of them are thought-provoking at worst, pretty spot on at best.

 

[Naeo]

I saw that article a few days ago when it went up.

I don't agree with quite everything in it, but I think it brings up some interesting points for consideration all the same. Particularly #6, which isn't a point I'd heard brought up before (but then, I am admittedly isolated from the whole "sexism in games" discussion in general). By the way, based on skimming a page or two of the topic, I want to offer my interpretation of what #6 was. It didn't seem to be the broad-stroke "female relying on male = sexism," but rather pointing out that female characters who were completely self-reliant initially turn into (or move towards) the "helpless damsel" who suddenly can't protect themself and needs a male figure to do that for them. I haven't played The Last of Us of Bioshock: Infinite, so I can't speak to the accuracy of those examples here, but the argument was a bit more than just "the woman relies on the man for something SEXISM INHERENT IN THE SYSTEM". It was "self-reliant woman loses self-reliance when a man shows up and has to take care of her".

 

[jamail77]

[snip] I haven't played The Last of Us o[r] Bioshock: Infinite, so I can't speak to the accuracy of those examples here, but the argument was a bit more than just "the woman relies on the man for something SEXISM INHERENT IN THE SYSTEM". It was "self-reliant woman loses self-reliance when a man shows up and has to take care of her".

Having played The Last of Us (but not BioShock: Infinite), I can tell you it is pretty inaccurate/misinterpreted. It's one thing if you have a certain perspective and opinion. When Naughty Dog, a majority of the players who are involved with this discussion, and the FREAKING voice actress explain what was going on it's not something you can flat out ignore or deny. The writer (not staff, this definitely seemed like just one writer) could have disagreed on the approach or the conveyance of that aspect of Ellie's character. The writer doesn't: It's like the intention AND the facts don't exist. I don't think it's willful ignorance either. I think the writer legitimately didn't pick up on it, didn't hear/read about it, and/or didn't even play the game and/or farther into the game. Multiple people on this thread have already stated what is wrong with that example. Basically Ellie does not lose self-reliance when the man shows up, especially since this man is the player character and is there for pretty much the whole story anyway. The writer just cherry-picked the example and subtracted understanding and context, most likely by accident/ignorance, possibly on purpose.

The only really decent game examples are Metroid: Other M, Zelda sort of (Zelda is complicated in this aspect), and real life. Some of the other reasons listed have merit, but only within that specific genre of game or from that developer. They'd have more merit if they were explained better and had a more inclusive environment. Hotline Miama is well Hotline Miami... The article is overly-simplistic, it lacks nuance and understanding of holistic complexities and completely misinterprets certain situations (mostly TLOU). It's a smorgasbord of fallacies. I support rational feminism, I support opportunity, I agree there is sexism in video games, and being a man has never stopped me from supporting any of that. It's articles like this though that just make it more confusing for people who are just getting in the conversation or who aren't in it, read about it, and take it at face value as a fair opinion. There are much better spokespeople out there. It won't affect anything at large, it's just annoying these sort of articles from bigger players (yes, even Cracked) keep popping out now and then instead of the more rationale ones.