D&D 3.5 vs 4.0

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DRTJR

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Aug 7, 2009
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I'd say neither are better.
4E has it's benefits and provides the DM with a F*** ton of possible tools at any given moment.
3.5 arms the players to the teath with abilities.
4E is an easy intro to DnD
3.5 isn't
4E is basically 4 classes with slightly different flair
3.5's classes are different if unbalanced
 

Skullpanda

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I've played both, and even some of the other, stranger games (Mutants and Masterminds, I'm looking at you...), and really, D&D 4.0 is D&D for people who haven't ever played a tabletop rpg before. It holds the player's hand a bit too much, and unless you house rule as a DM against experienced people, your players will rarely encounter too much of a challenge. 3.5 is less friendly on the entry for new people, but knowledge from there will generally transfer better. Truth be told, I would choose the system for the type of player you're going to have.

And if you want some real chaos, sit down for a M&M game. Especially when you do a villian campaign.
 

thethain

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You saw a ton of these arguments about 2.0 and 3.0 a while back.

I personally like 3, because it was what I learned first, and to me, it feels less like a video game. That said a lot of things in 4 are handled easier.

The biggest thing is there is the bringing of all classes together. Before a fighter basically was just an insane auto attacker, where only casters had interesting things. BUT after a caster's bag of tricks was spent, they basically were just a fleshbag target holding your party back. Where a fighter type could go full steam until their hp ran out.

Now all classes can choose how much resources they want to expend on a fight, and are never relegated to a complete liability.
 

Drake Barrow

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Most of my own thoughts on the matter have been posted previously. Both games are fun, both have their strengths and weaknesses.

Someone I know once referred to 4E as a 'gamist' setup (referring to the fact that it ignores most of the bits of world-building and logic in favor of streamlined game mechanics) versus 3.5 and Pathfinder as 'simulationist' (because they hearken back to the original Advanced Dungeons & Dragons by attempting to make a fully featured world). I'd agree with that assessment. If you want a full-featured world, go with Pathfinder (or 3.5). If you want an action oriented game, go with 4E.

Or, if you have the operating capital, pick up both and swap between them as the mood strikes you.
 

Saelune

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Pfft, class balance. Its all about what you do. A good DM will make everyone balanced anyway if they want to.
My current campaign lacks a rogue. We had one before, but not now. I had traps when I had a rogue, but now there are few. (Aside from plot driving ones)
Since Im not trying to just kill my party and want to make a fun experience, I tailor things more to them and how they play.

Oh, Im pro 3.5 over 4. (LE forever!)
 

CM156_v1legacy

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Mar 23, 2011
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Roganzar said:
CM156 said:
I've done both. I actually DM a 3.5 ed Pre-spellplauge Forgotten Realms group.
Nice to know I'm not the only 3.5ed Forgotten Realms DM out there. Granted I've made modifications to my game with some of the spellplague stuff, and god deaths (following the Marvel/DC Comics rules of death, and didn't destroy Halruua).

OT: 3.5ed is what I think of now when talking D&D.
Fourth edition isn't a bad system, actually pretty good from what I've read. Never had a chance to play it myself. I just can't think of it as D&D, fantasy sure but not D&D. Just me.

Also, I've never meet anyone that couldn't get the hang of White Wolf's d10 system quickly. Still love that system.
Really? There's TWO of us! Hot damn!

I really object to what happened to Cyric after the Spellplauge. This asshole ruins everything, and insted of killing him and spliting up his portfolio so no one has Deception, Illusion, Intrigue, Lies, and Murder in their portfolio, they just place him under house arest. I also don't like that Tyr died. That was my biggest problem with 4.ed as a setting for FR.
 

2733

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3.5 has a better set of tools to play with, and each of the character classes feels more different which is my main gripe with 4.0. wizard, cleric, barbarian, or citizen with a steel pipe, they all more or less play the same. but it get's bonus points for good balance and wizards actually being playable before level 7 or so, and a hundred-million bonus points for getting rid of "chaotic good" or as my players call it the get out of jail free card.
 

Roganzar

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Jun 13, 2009
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CM156 said:
Roganzar said:
CM156 said:
I've done both. I actually DM a 3.5 ed Pre-spellplauge Forgotten Realms group.
Nice to know I'm not the only 3.5ed Forgotten Realms DM out there. Granted I've made modifications to my game with some of the spellplague stuff, and god deaths (following the Marvel/DC Comics rules of death, and didn't destroy Halruua).

OT: 3.5ed is what I think of now when talking D&D.
Fourth edition isn't a bad system, actually pretty good from what I've read. Never had a chance to play it myself. I just can't think of it as D&D, fantasy sure but not D&D. Just me.

Also, I've never meet anyone that couldn't get the hang of White Wolf's d10 system quickly. Still love that system.
Really? There's TWO of us! Hot damn!

I really object to what happened to Cyric after the Spellplauge. This asshole ruins everything, and insted of killing him and spliting up his portfolio so no one has Deception, Illusion, Intrigue, Lies, and Murder in their portfolio, they just place him under house arest. I also don't like that Tyr died. That was my biggest problem with 4.ed as a setting for FR.
That and killing off Mystra and Helm. Seriously, never take a job as the Goddess/God of Magic for Faerun, turn-over rate is appalling. Those two gods have ended up being quiet prevelent in my games so I couldn't let them die. So I've just got them under "Mostly Dead," thank you Miracle Max, and seriously injured with their returns forthcoming.
Additionally, (Fanboy Moment) Ao decreed that the Gods power is based around their followers and their worship the Gods can't really stay "Dead" for long. (End Fanboy Momment)

Also, we need to find the other 3.5ed Forgotten Realms DMs out there, if there are more, and gather them someplace safe. We seem to be nearly extinct.
 

Ap07h30515

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thehorror2 said:
Oh boy have you opened a can of volatile, flammable worms here.

They are for very different styles of game. 4th edition does heroic high fantasy (with dragons, greek-style gods, powerful special-fx magic, and flaming swords tossed out like party favors) really REALLY well. However, it doesn't do anything else very well, without significant houseruling. It is also the most newbie-friendly system I've run into. Every class is different in function, but similar in structure; if you know how to create a fighter, you can make a wizard just as easily, although they still FEEL like different classes. It does rip pages shamelessly from the WoW playbook, though, going for "this sounds cool and speeds up play" over "this makes sense and increases verisimilitude" which may be perfect for the kind of game you're running or it might not, depending on what you and your players want out of it.

3.5 (or Pathfinder, if you can find it) is a very different beast. It's still not totally realistic, but it can do more grounded types of fantasy without totally screwing up. However, balance between the classes is completely nonexistent. Depending on how your players build their characters, the spellcasters will feel totally underpowered as they blow their 3 spells for the day in the first round and have to flee and/or shoot crossbow bolts at people until they can sleep for 8 hours, OR the non-spellcasters (fighters, monks and the like) will feel underpowered as the spellcasters use their spells to one-shot bosses, send them to other dimensions full of pain and suffering, or make their pets into guided missiles that do melee combat better than the fighter 5 levels higher than them.

tl;dr: if you want balance between the players as to how awesome they are, go with 4th. If you want grittier games where balance of power isn't necessarily split evenly among the players, go with 3.5. (Or Pathfinder, but that's a tale for another thread.)
Well put, none need look further than this ^
 

Johnny Impact

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I have decided to get the Pathfinder books. Half the folks at my hobby store rave about them; the other half are playing 4E.

Thank you all for the info and opinions. It's great to talk with my fellow dicers. Now where did I put that Monster Manual.....
 

Your once and future Fanboy

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Feb 11, 2009
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One of my biggest gripes with 4.0 where the monster manual and the DM options in general.
In 3.5 and 3.0 you where given atributes and modefiers for every creature so that you could fully coustomize them and build real challanges from anything.
hell, you could make a CR 20 encounter with a single goblin if you wanted to.

But in 4.0 you get a quick and easy, but limiting list of sample creatures, and no statistics or formulas on how to customize them beyond just adding more of them.

If i wanted to fight a goblin and still get CR 20 in 4.0, i would have to make it riddled with templates AND get 50 of his equal friends, while I could just give the goblin 20 levels in 3.5.

Maybe they have fixed this with the later monster manuals and DM books, but even though 3.5 had almost to much variation and options (the Unearthed arcana book had enough to make you go crazy), and where difficult to get into for some, I would rather have many possibilities and a litte challange at the begining, than to have a easy start where I soon realized I had "no more world to conquer"
 

KedynCrow

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I'm a fan of 3.5 D&D; I've found it to be quick to pick up, easy to homebrew with, and reasonably fairly balanced. I've also tried 3.75/Pathfinder, and found that while I dig some of the tweaks, there are others that sort of irk me. 4.0 feels a little like an MMO, I'll agree, but if you're looking for a dungeon-bust where everyone is a mighty god of war and destruction, it can actually be pretty fun.

All in all, it really depends on your play-style.
 

StrixMaxima

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I play D&D using 3.5 rules with 2nd Edition Scenarios (for the most part). We simply love Forgotten Realms at that specific moment in the lore, with the Gods roaming around and interacting with the heroes of the time.

4.0 is simply a wargame for me. And, when I want to play wargames, I grab my Vampire Counts armies in Warhammer Fantasy battle.

Try playing Call of Cthulhu. Any edition. It is simply glorious, probably the best mixture of simplicity, fun and cleverness present in any other RPG. Anyone can play it after a quick rules walkthrough (around 30 minutes). Do yourself this favor.
 

Slycne

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I've played 4th and 3rd and think they are both blotted messes. That's not to say I can't and don't have fun with them, but I've had far better experiences with old Red/Blue Box D&D than anything else. This is coming from someone who started at 3rd too, so it's not simply a nostalgia thing.

I haven't had a chance to try Pathfinder yet though. I like that they fix some of the class issues, but without a major overall I don't think it's that much improved from the core clumsy slowness that is 3rd edition. For example, we can run a massively fun and challenging encounter with over 500 skeletons (we took some diamonds, what's the worst that could happen) in less than an hour in B/X. That's a fight that would take hours in 3rd or 4th.
 

tzimize

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Pathfinder is brilliant. It really is like 3.5 2.0 if that makes sense :p
The world is great, the books are good. There are some interesting classes and its pretty well balanced. It is a bit more streamlined when it comes to some skills, and some feats are changed, but its all for the better.

I tried 4th edition...twice or so...didnt like it. Pathfinder is where its at. Familiar enough to not be a hassle and new enough to be intriguing. And yes, its 3.5 compatible :D Minor modifications are needed for monsters but they are so small you can do them on the fly.

Slycne said:
I've played 4th and 3rd and think they are both blotted messes. That's not to say I can't and don't have fun with them, but I've had far better experiences with old Red/Blue Box D&D than anything else. This is coming from someone who started at 3rd too, so it's not simply a nostalgia thing.

I haven't had a chance to try Pathfinder yet though. I like that they fix some of the class issues, but without a major overall I don't think it's that much improved from the core clumsy slowness that is 3rd edition. For example, we can run a massively fun and challenging encounter with over 500 skeletons (we took some diamonds, what's the worst that could happen) in less than an hour in B/X. That's a fight that would take hours in 3rd or 4th.
Yeah...more players and more monsters can be a hassle. But thats the beauty about RPGs really, you can just modify them. Add a house rule for dealing with big masses of creatures. If its possible to do effectively in the game you were talking about, why not adopt a rule or two? :)
 

BloodSquirrel

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Johnny Impact said:
I'm sure this thread has been done before but I didn't see it in the search results. Maybe I'm just tired.

Has anyone out there played D&D 3.5, or 4.0, or, preferably, both?

I'm looking for ways to compare and contrast editions. I have two rookies in my gaming group and I'm searching for the best way to explain the differences before starting a campaign. They get to choose which edition they like the sound of. As I have never done anything with 4.0 I need to understand it better myself.

I'm a veteran GM who has run Advanced, 2E, and 3.5 before. 3.5 seems to be the ultimate expression of "classic" D&D.

I've heard 4.0 is "World of D&DCraft," essentially redesigned from the ground up as a dice-and-paper MMO. I understand it plays very differently.

Thoughts? Opinions? Advice?

Edit: We just got finished with two seasons of White Wolf. I did Werewolf, then another guy did Mage. Now we're doing a lighthearted superhero game. We'll go back to World of Darkness but not right now.

Edit again: I've heard Pathfinder mentioned before. Are 3.5 sourcebooks compatible with it -- Monster Manual, etc?
4th edition is less "World of D&DCraft" and more "back to it's wargamming roots". The idea is that the roleplaying aspect doesn't need to be bogged down in rules, while the combat is designed around greater use of movement and abilities.

Overall, it's FAR more balanced, intuitive, and streamlined than 3.5, but without sacrificing depth. There are a few things you'll miss from 3.5, but there are tons of other things to love about it. For example: The mess that was multiclassing and prestige classes in earlier editions has been replaced with built-in customization options for classes. Each class has more options to start off with, and when you get to level 10 you pick a paragon path. Paragon paths are basically everything good about prestige classes built right into normal level advancement. Oh, and there is no such thing as "caster level" anymore, thank god.
 

baconcow

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I have Pathfinder. Core Rules, Bestiary 1, World Guide, and the Official GM Screen. Great stuff here.
 

Thanatos5150

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Honestly, having played with both, I greatly prefer 4e over 3.5.

3.5 is nothing but various levels and flavours of broken-to-the-point-of-unplayability, with absurd power creep, class imbalance, and lack of round-to-round choices in combat.

4e, on the other hand has a good, level playing field, and, from what I've seen, doesn't power creep too much, which was 3.5's primary problem (Aside from full casters. Goddess, casters! What did us mundanes ever do to you?).

The people who complain about there being less outside-of-combat stuff to do are jesting at scars that have and will never feel a wound. I've spent more time enjoying 4e outside of combat than I have enjoying 3.5 in OR outside of combat. Their narrative skills (or their DM's narrative skills) may have trouble adapting to things without a strict ruleset, but there's still no reason you can't stab the bartender, he just doesn't have a page and a half of stats for the DM to run crying to.

Perhaps most importantly, 4e made it fun to play as a frickin' caster again.
Yes, I'm aware that all classes are, mechanically, just as caster as each other, but in 3.x you had mammoth spell lists, planning and preparing your spells, followed up by the DM pulling a TPK out of his arse because you had the gall to not play a batman or a CoDzilla.

In 4e, you have your powers, and no save-or-sucks, no save-or-dies, and no batmanning your way through the fight and leaving everybody who rolled lower on initiative (which is everybody, thanks to your quickened Celerity spell you've had ready to cast as a free action since you woke up) standing around feeling impotent.
4e is an actual game, 3.5 is swinging around big numerical sticks and pretending like they mean a damn.