OP:
1. your awesome for seeing this shit how it is.
2. dont worry about offending people, if they dont like it they can get bent.
3. Fuck whale wars, i want whales with machine guns a torpedoes damn it! And fuck whales for that matter, yes its important we save whale for conservation reasons, but if i have a harpoon, a small boat, and cant get further than 5 miles from a desert island, fuck them, im haveing whale meat. And if the whale wars bastard try and stop me, then they'll get harpooned too.
Also, animal rights is a joke, they have a right to live and avoid being dinner if they can. Now im not saying we should torture or wipe out entire species, god forbid, but no animal is worth more than a humans life....except penguins, you touch them and ill kick your ass (if the penguins dont get you first, cause everyone knows they are born with fully loaded m14s on their back.)
I like how alot of people on this thread say that whaling is illegal when its fully practiced both here, in Japan, and all over the world daily.
The Sea Shepards (or the SS as I like to call them) are nothing but terrorists and pirates harming hard working people who are just trying to make a living.
I think it wouldn't be unreasonable for the Japanese government to send armed coast guard escorts along with the fishing fleet.
The only reason that the SS has operated for so long is that the upholding international law in international waters is next to impossible.
Honestly, there's better ways to voice your beliefs then fucking with a poor fishing boat that more often then not the ones that will save YOUR stupid ass after you've rammed them with your own tiny terrorist boat.
Stuff like this? Meaning, actually doing something when people engage in illegal activities. You'd also put up this rant when a member of the public takes down a bank robber so he can be arrested? Be angry when someone reports a child abuser because now the poor rapist can't screw his daughter anymore?
Ah Blah, your cognitive dissonance never ceases to amaze me. The beautiful tapestry of warped and hypocritical values and justifications.. oh, it's so brilliant. Comparing criminal acts or the stopping of criminal acts to an practice, while some people find objectionable, is legal and people who are attacking their business? What do you do for a living again? Oh right, kickboxing security guard who dislikes violence and opposes any measure of self defense against criminals.
Well, madame, I find what you do for a living, while legal, to be morally reprehensible, so I am going to protest it. I am going to go to your place of business, throw stuff at you, crash my car into your building, and destroy any products of your days of hard work. You, ma'am, are going to take that protest. You will not defend yourself, your business, or your product. You will not attack me regardless of what I do because I am protesting and you are a non-violent krav maga trained security officer.
I'm glad to see you support vigilantism though. Because that's what this is. They are attacking the whalers. They're really stupid about it, but that's what they're doing. What sets these people above other animals rights terrorists who bomb kennels and animal testing plants? Nothing. The difference between that person who stops that bank robber or reports that pedophile is those are actual crimes which the individual can be arrested and charged for. Whaling, while disliked, is not illegal where they do it.
Oh, and I know you're hyperbolic retort will be "Well what happens if the pedophiles start taking their victims out into international waters where it isn't a crime?" and I've really got nothing to say to that except bravo to them for putting that much planning and money into it, but then you're allowed to get into your Krav Maga Securityman-boat, with the Batman theme playing of course, and go out their and kick their asses, since that to is not a crime in international waters. Refuse to fight SecurityMan, for everlasting peace!
I'm no veggie but I at least like to think I have a little compassion and morality. I am very pleased that battery farms are being outlawed in the UK, and that fox hunting has gone, and as you say, not only is whaling barbaric and endangering species, it's almost completely unnecessary for a first world country and there's little demand for the product. It's completely retarded to exterminate some of the most majestic species on the planet for no other reason that "cos we can".
Now, I can't comment on the methods used or the show, but activists do what they've gotta do. It takes action to stop people doing bad things, and from the posts here at least they're better at it than Green Peace!
I'm glad to see you support vigilantism though. Because that's what this is. They are attacking the whalers. They're really stupid about it, but that's what they're doing. What sets these people above other animals rights terrorists who bomb kennels and animal testing plants? Nothing. The difference between that person who stops that bank robber or reports that pedophile is those are actual crimes which the individual can be arrested and charged for. Whaling, while disliked, is not illegal where they do it.
Comparing people in a boat being obstructive to terrorist-activists blowing shit up is inaccurate - it would be like comparing the Lybia crackdowns to the US's response to the recent protests.
Fox hunting in the UK wasn't always a crime. Activists opposed it, raised awareness of just how cruel and out of place in a modern civilised society, and now it is outlawed. Slavery wasn't always a crime, but individuals protested, raised awareness and changed the lives of millions.
Laws are written by men, with material concerns, industrial lobbying and sometimes limited scope and knowledge. Men are fallible - that is why laws have amendments, revisions, why lawers can argue about interpretations, why innocent can be condemned and the guilty can walk free.
Sometimes things are wrong without the law telling us that they are. Sometimes legal things are amoral. Sometimes the good have to act to show what is wrong.
not quite sure if this is what you meant; but how do you know that some bloke in Sea Shepherd has never been shot? He could have been in the army or something!
Thanks for posting the videos to enlighten me. I did say that I didn't really know what ninonybox360 was referring to, but thanks for clearing it up.
And OK, the guy is a dick. But that doesn't make the entire cause worthless. After all, there are plenty of arseholes that in spite of their arseholery still believe in democracy.
And lets not forget that the Japanese whaling crews have also exaggerated the danger that Sea Shepherd activists have posed. From what I remember, they claimed that stinkbombs thrown by the activists were poison gas. That doesn't excuse the "I was shot" guy, but it does show that neither side are all that reliable as witnesses.
So I guess you have to look at the actual results and aims of their work to make a judgement, which I did my best to in the rest of my previous post.
Ah Blah, your cognitive dissonance never ceases to amaze me. The beautiful tapestry of warped and hypocritical values and justifications.. oh, it's so brilliant. Comparing criminal acts or the stopping of criminal acts to an practice, while some people find objectionable, is legal and people who are attacking their business? What do you do for a living again? Oh right, kickboxing security guard who dislikes violence and opposes any measure of self defense against criminals.
Well, madame, I find what you do for a living, while legal, to be morally reprehensible, so I am going to protest it. I am going to go to your place of business, throw stuff at you, crash my car into your building, and destroy any products of your days of hard work. You, ma'am, are going to take that protest. You will not defend yourself, your business, or your product. You will not attack me regardless of what I do because I am protesting and you are a non-violent krav maga trained security officer.
I'm glad to see you support vigilantism though. Because that's what this is. They are attacking the whalers. They're really stupid about it, but that's what they're doing. What sets these people above other animals rights terrorists who bomb kennels and animal testing plants? Nothing. The difference between that person who stops that bank robber or reports that pedophile is those are actual crimes which the individual can be arrested and charged for. Whaling, while disliked, is not illegal where they do it.
Oh, and I know you're hyperbolic retort will be "Well what happens if the pedophiles start taking their victims out into international waters where it isn't a crime?" and I've really got nothing to say to that except bravo to them for putting that much planning and money into it, but then you're allowed to get into your Krav Maga Securityman-boat, with the Batman theme playing of course, and go out their and kick their asses, since that to is not a crime in international waters. Refuse to fight SecurityMan, for everlasting peace!
Wasting
Ok so the whale is dead and they are hauling it on bored to harvest the meat and oil, but here comes the sea shepherd! What do they do? Cut the line so the dead whale goes back into the ocean and gets used for nothing, Making the entire death a wast!
It is definitely not a waste. A dead whale carcass gets eaten by various different animals over a long period of time. Yes I happened to watch a certain David Attenbrough documentary .
Please note that this topic is not meant to offend or anger anyone, it is just me speaking my opinion and ranting a bit"
Now its no secret that I hate the show Whale Wars, it's just a bunch of nit wits doing absolutely nothing while playing sad music over a whale being killed. Im just going to list off some complaints.
Ok you don't like them. I agree they have mixed results in stopping the Japanese from whaling.
ninonybox360 said:
Overly in your face about it:
If you wan't to be a Vegetarian or Vegan fine more power to you, but don't treat me like an asshole for eating a chicken.
Yes they probably do, but I would place that on the fact that their being filmed and if they want to continue to be filmed, theatrics are sometimes "need"(I use that term very loosely, obviously the don't need to be dramatic but it keeps the ratings high so they might feel that it should be done). I'm not excusing them, I'm just trying to consider why they might act the way they do. Also this being a political matter, dramatics are nothing new when people are trying to draw attention to their side/cause and gain support from the general public.
ninonybox360 said:
Wasting
Ok so the whale is dead and they are hauling it on bored to harvest the meat and oil, but here comes the sea shepherd! What do they do? Cut the line so the dead whale goes back into the ocean and gets used for nothing, Making the entire death a wast!
I see your point that the whale is already dead, so they didn't save the animal. However, think about, if the Japanese whalers have to constantly fight the Sea Shepard to kill a whale body, and only come back empty handed no matter how much money and time they put into it, they will lose modivation to continue their activities. They would be further demoralized if every time they actually did win and managed to kill the whale, the carcass was dropped into the sea, showing them that in the end, the whalers just can't win even if they do manage to kill the whales. By actually killing and obtaining the carcass, it could actually motivate the whalers and give them hope that they could capture more dead whales.
ninonybox360 said:
"But there smart!"
Pigs are smart but nobody bitches about them!
True, but people can directly increase the population of pigs, while (to my knowledge) whales can't have their population directly increased by human efforts, which means that if humans were to hunt/kill pigs to almost extinction, theoretically we could bring them back but as of right now (again to my limited knowledge) humans could not directly increase the whale population. Also, I feel that I would be wrong to ignore the fact that because of culture, some people(presumably people from Western culture) don't feel the same way about pigs as they do about whales.
ninonybox360 said:
"They deserve equal rights!" That's a horrible way to look at it, giving your food equal rights is just plane silly. Don't give animals equal rights, just don't destroy all of them on earth.
I'm sorry but this really bothers me, I understand that you wouldn't give animals(regardless of whether humans eat them or not) all of the same rights that you would give humans(I don't think people are asking for cows to be allowed to attend college, vote for who is the next president/prime minister,ect.)but I would say that animals have the right to have some of the same rights that are mentioned in the United Nations Declaration, like the right to not be tortured(which means that this [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bile_bear] should not be happening), the right to not experience genocide(or for animals you might call this extinction), and the right to have land(which means that humans can't/shouldn't take all the land on this planet away from animals and build cities/towns/ect.).
ninonybox360 said:
We are animals too
We need to get back to the fact that we are animals, we just became self aware and are smart enough to hunt effectively. We are animals, we are omnivores! If it comes down to us or the whales...goodbye whales
Except we are not in a situation where it is Humans versus Whales, so we don't need to say "goodbye whales". Also as a more "self aware" and a "smart[er]" animal, we should try to act as such and not resort to such primitive attitudes such as "we kill them or they kill us", we are humans, we are better than such behavior. Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to state that we can't eat meat, just that we shouldn't consume or hunt(seeodo, Thylacine) other animals at the expense of the possibility of them existing in the future.
ninonybox360 said:
Stupidity
"herp derp lets drive our little fiberglass bat boat in front of a 100,000 ton ship, that will show them!"
Won't make up there damned minds
In said boat crash they requested help from the ship they just drove in front of, the whalers where uneasy about going over (more likely a language problem), they did stop however. The whalers decided to go over and try to help...only to be met with "STAY BACK" and "WE WILL HAVE YOU ARRESTED"...moments after the SOS was sent.
Racism
The comments in this video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=27nX3Dsv9Xk&feature=related) are the most discussing, racist, undignified things I have read.[/b]
Eh, that shouldn't make you dislike the Sea Shepard people, racist would just use this issue as a way to shadow their own hate. I doubt that most of these racist actually care about the whales and that if the Sea Shepard was to start going after some of the North European countries that partake in whaling, you would most likely not hear from these people who are making racist comments.
ninonybox360 said:
Now if you don't like whaling that's fine, if you want to be a vegan that's fine too. Its just when stuff like this happens that I get pissed off. The lesson is ~Believe whatever you want, just don't be a dick about it~[/b[.
I'm sorry but if "being a dick" is required so that the Japanese follow the international laws and stop trying to exploit loop holes, then I don't mind the Sea Shepard being "dicks".
ninonybox360 said:
Discussion value: What do you think of the show whale wars and there antics?
I don't agree with everything they do, but I agree that with there feelings that the Japanese should stop trying to lie about there hunting of whales for food, because regardless of whether the Sea Shepard is acting right, the Japanese are trying to exploit international laws to hunts whales.
Now its no secret that I hate the show Whale Wars, it's just a bunch of nit wits doing absolutely nothing while playing sad music over a whale being killed. Im just going to list off some complaints.
Yeah, I'm against whaling because it's unsustainable, but I watched that show for fifteen minutes and all I kept thinking was 'You're forcibly boarding a ship in international waters to interfeer with it's activities? You know, we tend to call that piracy...and look! You're outraged the crew is trying to stop you? Really?'
I applaud the guys because the whales are endangered and are some of the primary predators for plankton and krill.
If we lose the whales, we have overabundance of plankton/krill which can basically kill large portions of our oceans.
So whether it's a waste or not, if it makes it unprofitable for the japanese whalers, who've shown they have basically no interest in conservation or ecological consequences, over profit, good.
It doesn't matter whether or not the animal is endangered, the international laws state that people are not to hunt them for things like food, only for scientific research. The Japanese are exploiting the science loophole to cloak their hunting as a form of "scientific research". They are violating international laws and should stop what their doing.
Fuck me the typos in the opening post of this thread are ... gah ... it's like someone put a thousand whales in front of a thousand keyboards. Big keyboards.
On another point ... I'm probably one of the few people here who have actually eaten whale. It's kinda meh. Tried it in a curry, in a tin (no tuna was hurt in the capture of this whale meat!), and I remember in Japan a friend served me some 'whale bacon' - it's basically little strips of whale blubber that have been fermented somewhat. Imagine a strip of regular bacon, in saran wrap, and placed on your dashboard in summer and park in the sun for 2-3 days. Then open that baby up and gobble gobble.
Yep. It's as foul as it sounds. Whale meat is hardly eaten at all any more in Japan, and the younger generation has almost zero interest in it - they'll try it, but like sheep's brains it's something you try to say 'yup I've tried it'. It's a status food, much like fugu (which can be listed as 'bland' or 'subtle', depending on how pretentious the person you ask is).
But anyway, long story short, I don't care any more about the whales than I do any other animal (ie not at all), but an additional issue is that tourism operators and small coastal towns in Australia, for example, rely upon the whales for a portion of their yearly income.
No whales = less visitors = less business
Whaling for Japan is economically insignificant in the scheme of things, but there are still hundreds (possibly thousands) who would be affected by its discontinuance as well.
The issue must be resolved as an economic/resources issue, not as a cultural vs ethical issue, because tree hugging hippies and stubborn Japanese connoisuers will never back down because to them there is no 'middle ground'. Negotiation only works when both sides are willing to compromise - and in this case, neither are. In support of the Japanese, they have already compromised quite significantly.
Fuck me the typos in the opening post of this thread are ... gah ... it's like someone put a thousand whales in front of a thousand keyboards. Big keyboards.
On another point ... I'm probably one of the few people here who have actually eaten whale. It's kinda meh. Tried it in a curry, in a tin (no tuna was hurt in the capture of this whale meat!), and I remember in Japan a friend served me some 'whale bacon' - it's basically little strips of whale blubber that have been fermented somewhat. Imagine a strip of regular bacon, in saran wrap, and placed on your dashboard in summer and park in the sun for 2-3 days. Then open that baby up and gobble gobble.
Yep. It's as foul as it sounds. Whale meat is hardly eaten at all any more in Japan, and the younger generation has almost zero interest in it - they'll try it, but like sheep's brains it's something you try to say 'yup I've tried it'. It's a status food, much like fugu (which can be listed as 'bland' or 'subtle', depending on how pretentious the person you ask is).
But anyway, long story short, I don't care any more about the whales than I do any other animal (ie not at all), but an additional issue is that tourism operators and small coastal towns in Australia, for example, rely upon the whales for a portion of their yearly income.
No whales = less visitors = less business
Whaling for Japan is economically insignificant in the scheme of things, but there are still hundreds (possibly thousands) who would be affected by its discontinuance as well.
The issue must be resolved as an economic/resources issue, not as a cultural vs ethical issue, because tree hugging hippies and stubborn Japanese connoisuers will never back down because to them there is no 'middle ground'. Negotiation only works when both sides are willing to compromise - and in this case, neither are. In support of the Japanese, they have already compromised quite significantly.
Not to pry but you say it must be resolved as economic issue not as an ethical issue. While I agree with this couldn't it be resolved as an ecological issue? One of the reasons people are trying to stop shark fishing isn't because sharks are cool and we should let them live but because removing an apex predator messes up ecosystems pretty hard and it will come back to bite us in the ass. Whales are the main predator of plankton and krill so there is plenty of negative possibilities concerning the environment.
It doesn't matter whether or not the animal is endangered, the international laws state that people are not to hunt them for things like food, only for scientific research. The Japanese are exploiting the science loophole to cloak their hunting as a form of "scientific research". They are violating international laws and should stop what their doing.
Mmm... yeah, see. The problem with this opinion is that, no matter how you try to spin it... they aren't actually violating any laws. Everything they're doing is allowed by the IWC's regulations. Yep, it's a pretty glaring loophole all right. No arguing against that. Is it underhanded? Immoral? Deviously crafty? Maybe so.
I don't like whaling too. But solving problems with violence and intimidation sets a precedence. Yes, animals must be protected from over-killing and must be killed for food in the fastest and painless way possible. But the means do not justify the ends.
What depresses me is that while the idea is noble to seek an end to whaling, there is no constructive attempt to figure out what to do with those put out of jobs. Some of the men, I dare to say all of them, have been in the business and know no other job skills. Are we to stop them from bringing the bacon home, leave them to their fate and declare victory? One example is that of sharking - cutting off the fins and leaving the shark to die. That's wrong, and I rather eat fake shark fin for New Years. But sometimes those who do sharking are dirt poor and have no other skills to earn money for the family. I saw an exhibition on sharks at the Science Center and most of these sharkers are from Somolia or places where there is rampant sea piracy. These are dirt poor people.
We are more than willing to bring the wrath of God on those who would stop us from earning money we need. Let's put ourselves in these peoples' shoes. What Sea Shepard is doing treats only the surface. If we can show these guys a better alternative for work, only than do we have a higher moral ground to say "Stop that".
Failing that, let's just beat the crap out of each other. That's what I get from some postings.
Yeah, I'll agree that the show is kinda silly. Though, many of your criticisms against the show are really criticisms against the Sea Shepard Society, and are rather poorly thought out ones at that.
ninonybox360 said:
Overly in your face about it:
If you wan't to be a Vegetarian or Vegan fine more power to you, but don't treat me like an asshole for eating a chicken.
They lie
"I have been shot, please understand what we are facing!" oh what's that?....you where never shot!?
They aren't supposed to be acting normally. The reason they are acting out is to make a scene and get their cause out there. Not exactly tasteful, but it gets the point across.
ninonybox360 said:
Wasting
Ok so the whale is dead and they are hauling it on bored to harvest the meat and oil, but here comes the sea shepherd! What do they do? Cut the line so the dead whale goes back into the ocean and gets used for nothing, Making the entire death a wast!
The ideology is basically "wasting" one whale, to prevent the needless deaths of others in the future. As others have stated, if this one whale is wasted, then the company doing the whaling is unable to profit off of it, and are thereby deterred from trying to kill more whales in the future.
ninonybox360 said:
"But there smart!"
Pigs are smart but nobody bitches about them!
"They deserve equal rights!" That's a horrible way to look at it, giving your food equal rights is just plane silly. Don't give animals equal rights, just don't destroy all of them on earth.
We are animals too
We need to get back to the fact that we are animals, we just became self aware and are smart enough to hunt effectively. We are animals, we are omnivores! If it comes down to us or the whales...goodbye whales
Implying that whaling is the one thing that stands between humanity's survival and sure destruction. Get over that idea. Whaling, overwhelmingly the whaling that goes on today, is a luxury, propagated mainly for rich people. Whale oil has had no real legitimacy as a fuel since the invention of kerosene, and the last time that whale meat was legitimately needed to feed people was for a couple years after World War II (which is in fact where the fashion of eating whale meat comes from.)
Of course, the downside to this industry is that it is leading a number of species which are already endangered by other human activities into extinction. Which is why industrial whaling was outlawed in 1985. In the face of a dwindling population of highly intelligent and social wild animals due to human hunting and pollution, the nations of the world joined together to effectively ban large-scale whale hunting. The reason why Sea Shepard exists is because whaling companies (overwhelmingly of Japanese origin) use legal loopholes to continue unbated whale hunting, while the international community watches on.
But anyway, long story short, I don't care any more about the whales than I do any other animal (ie not at all), but an additional issue is that tourism operators and small coastal towns in Australia, for example, rely upon the whales for a portion of their yearly income.
Mate, I live in a town not far from Warrnambool in western victoria. the whales that show up every year are Southern Right whales, which are not hunted by the Japanese. So that point isn't really valid to me.
The only way this stupid whale war ends is when someone on either side gets killed. It'll likely be one of the Sea Shepherd people who doesn't know shit about sailing.
I don't like whaling too. But solving problems with violence and intimidation sets a precedence. Yes, animals must be protected from over-killing and must be killed for food in the fastest and painless way possible. But the means do not justify the ends.
-snip-
We are more than willing to bring the wrath of God on those who would stop us from earning money we need. Let's put ourselves in these peoples' shoes. What Sea Shepard is doing treats only the surface. If we can show these guys a better alternative for work, only than do we have a higher moral ground to say "Stop that".
Well, most (if not what I believe to be all,) of the operations which Sea Shepard go after is commercial whaling; sizeable companies working to put whale meat on the tables of high-end restaurants.
I agree with you in part, at least that Sea Shepard should definitely be part of a bigger picture. The issue should turn from "how do we stop the illegal commercial overhunting of whales" to a much broader "how do we adapt the unbalanced world today to be in relative harmony with the environment we live in while providing security for all?" Shark finning in Somalia likely has the same roots as the piracy and insurgency which plague the country. Whaling is one of those industries that we'll have to change in the face of a fragile earth, in the same way that we'll have to change the industry of coal mining or materials refining. Sure, those changes will probably lead to economic hardship and job loss; but they will also provide the opportunity for new industries to take their place, and for society to be a little better in line with the rest of the earth.
Also note that whale stocks were depleting rapidly before the 1985 moratorium. Had commercial whaling been allowed to continue, the crash would eventually have not only shocked the people dependent on the whaling industry for income, but much more direly, indigenous people to whom whaling is both an old cultural tradition, and who would find themselves with no possible source of income if whale stocks depleted. As an example, look at what happened in the Grand Banks of Newfoundland. After centuries of overfishing, fish stocks simply disappeared. And the economy of Newfoundland hasn't recovered in the 2-3 decades since, and the fishing fleets which frequented the Grand Banks found themselves out of fishing grounds which they had depended on.
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