Dark Souls 2: SotFS (or therefore, "Baa-baa Black Sheep" and other musings thread)

[hanselthecaretaker]

So I've been playing this quite a bit lately (I know I know, late to the party 'n all having still only completed Demon's and DS1), and wanted to comment on this oft controversial entry in the series. I admittedly approached it with equal amounts of both curiosity and reservation after hearing about the more prominent issues for so long, but after reaching the infamous elevator ride to Iron Keep I think I've seen enough to scribble some initial impressions.

- First, I noticed the controls felt a bit mechanically stiffer than DS1 at first. I realize this might be due to either scaled back Havok physics, the Adaptability stat, or both. However, being at I think lvl 84 the last I checked I'm certainly starting to feel more nimble. Apparently there is a bonus in leveling Endurance and Adaptability equally, so I've brought them both up to 20 so far.

- Things Betwixt is an interesting starting point, in that it's not really a traditional tutorial level so much as an introductory one. It feels pretty fleshed out actually, with the former firekeepers providing some initial lore and instruction. The ogre can go to hell though. Definitely a weaker tutorial enemy than the previous games.

- ...Going through this dark abyssal cave and...praise the sun, there is Majula and it's beautiful. It feels like a hub, but also like a normal seaside landscape. Actually, the game seems to have a surprisingly wide amount of level variety. I also like how the Grave of Saints is located underneath by access through the well. There are actually quite a few exceptionally distinct levels like No-Man's Warf and Shaded Woods that have as good an atmosphere as any from Souls.

- NPCs at the very least seem par for the course, with one standout [http://darksouls2.wikidot.com/head-of-vengarl] in particular.

- Inventory is greatly improved over DS1. Itemization is better, and not only is the storage box more functional, but you can actually consume multiple souls at a time while keeping the inventory open. Simple yet so effective. Would've still liked to see stat comparisons at vendors though for new gear vs equipped. I also appreciate that infusing and reinforcement has been simplified.

- Pharros' Lockstones are cool new layer of puzzlement. Statues are...not as much. It wouldn't bother me if Fragrant Branches of Yore weren't so sparse though.

- As previously mentioned, the controls had combat feeling slow and stiff initially but with leveling it's improved most drastically. Parrying has an enemy-specific timing and rhythm, while you can no longer just hope to circle for a backstab on most enemies. Footwork and actually using inventory items in conjunction with stamina management seem to play a larger role than ever before. I also like how there is greater lock-on range, making the crossbow and spells feel more useful in this aspect.

- Enemy variety is pretty typical, but what surprised me perhaps most is that so far the bosses have been...better than expected. From what I heard I would've thought I'd be fighting humanoids in heavy armor for most of the game, but no. The Old Dragonslayer is about the closest I've encountered to that after more than a dozen. I really dug the Executioner's Chariot battle as well as Skeleton Lords. There actually seems to be more boss variety in both design and tactics in this game so far.

I also like how the torch comes into play for different things, like lighting the oil to help see your surroundings in the Lost Sinner fight, and the windmill which I've yet to see what if anything else is affected.

So yeah, long story short, color me pleasantly surprised by this one. So far with my 30-something hours in the game, some awkward level transitions (it was certainly a trippy elevator ride from Earthen Peak to Iron Keep) are about the only significant gripe I can muster. No wonky hitboxes causing unfair death yet, no unmanageable mobs; only perhaps an occasional wall- clipping enemy attack, which was also present in the previous games. I think it has a steeper difficulty curve than the original at first too, but mostly washed away after enough leveling.

I'll follow up as I kindle more of Drangleic.

 

[KoudelkaMorgan]

Unfortunately the Scholar of the First Sin is a terrible version of the game compared to the original IMO. The different enemy layouts are nothing more than trolling in this version in places, and the game is made poorer for it. It looks a lot prettier and the framerate is great, but if you have played the PS3 version I would not recommend getting it again on PS4, and I would almost not even recommend the SotFS at all if you have never played it before.

Bear in mind that I liked DS2 more than the previous 2 games, and in a lot of ways more than DS3. Bloodborne is the best for me though.

 

[hanselthecaretaker]

Unfortunately the Scholar of the First Sin is a terrible version of the game compared to the original IMO. The different enemy layouts are nothing more than trolling in this version in places, and the game is made poorer for it. It looks a lot prettier and the framerate is great, but if you have played the PS3 version I would not recommend getting it again on PS4, and I would almost not even recommend the SotFS at all if you have never played it before.

Bear in mind that I liked DS2 more than the previous 2 games, and in a lot of ways more than DS3. Bloodborne is the best for me though.

Interesting. IIRC a lot of people said the SotFS content was better than the bulk of the main game. It kinda sounds like the original version might've been even easier, since I haven't had any issues with trolling yet. Difference in item placements or location seem like they'd be even more trivial.

I suppose it doesn't bother me if those are the only significant changes, but I also haven't played through it all yet. So far the Black Gulch leading up to The Rotten has been the only frustrating area, having to run the gauntlet of poison spitters every try. But then again I haven't lit the second bonfire yet; have to find another Fragrant Branch.

 

[RaikuFA]

This one always felt... different to me. I like it but compared to 1 and 3 it feels like a fangame.

 

[Kerg3927]

Never too late experience the Souls trilogy. I played DaS 1 for the first time last year. Then proceded to spend 11 straight months playing and replaying nothing but Souls trilogy games before finally getting my fill. I like all 3 about equally. They each have their own little twists that they bring to the formula.

 

[manic_depressive13]

Yeah I replayed it recently and it's really not that bad. I think the spectacularly shitty intro cutscene that consists of looking at an old lady's mouth while she monologues for 45 minutes is what really primed me to dislike it. Fuck me that was boring.

Where they really dropped the ball with DS2 was storytelling. DS1 had a believable, dynamic world that oozed hopelessness and despair. NPCs aggroed almost instantly because they live in a dangerous world where people lose their mind like water out of a leaky bucket. Almost everyone has a tragic end and there's so much mystery and room for speculation. DS2 just lacks that verisimilitude. Most of the NPC dialogue is exposition, and although it's never as egregious as the pile of crap that was intro, you can really see the attitude that spawned it informing the rest of the game. Leveling up at a bonfire is a million times more logical and appropriate than some ridiculous fucking waifu character that gives you a speech telling you to touch her pussy every time you want to become stronger. That's the kind of crap that, to me at least, is world destroying.

It's not really any worse than DS3 though. They were never going to recapture the magic of DS1.

 

[hanselthecaretaker]

Yeah I replayed it recently and it's really not that bad. I think the spectacularly shitty intro cutscene that consists of looking at an old lady's mouth while she monologues for 45 minutes is what really primed me to dislike it. Fuck me that was boring.

Where they really dropped the ball with DS2 was storytelling. DS1 had a believable, dynamic world that oozed hopelessness and despair. NPCs aggroed almost instantly because they live in a dangerous world where people lose their mind like water out of a leaky bucket. Almost everyone has a tragic end and there's so much mystery and room for speculation. DS2 just lacks that verisimilitude. Most of the NPC dialogue is exposition, and although it's never as egregious as the pile of crap that was intro, you can really see the attitude that spawned it informing the rest of the game. Leveling up at a bonfire is a million times more logical and appropriate than some ridiculous fucking waifu character that gives you a speech telling you to touch her pussy every time you want to become stronger. That's the kind of crap that, to me at least, is world destroying.

It's not really any worse than DS3 though. They were never going to recapture the magic of DS1.

You've never played Demon's or Bloodborne I take it lol. Dark Souls really didn't imbibe a feeling of hopelessness to me personally. It was more like a land that time passed by, as most residents often sounded far too jovial (or maybe delusional) to be convincingly hopeless. For a game with "Dark" in the title it could've been a lot darker actually. I'm glad it wasn't though in a way because the game still needs to be fun, and I think the director knew how to balance theme and playability.

 

[manic_depressive13]

You've never played Demon's or Bloodborne I take it lol. Dark Souls really didn't imbibe a feeling of hopelessness to me personally. It was more like a land that time passed by, as most residents often sounded far too jovial (or maybe delusional) to be convincingly hopeless. For a game with "Dark" in the title it could've been a lot darker actually. I'm glad it wasn't though in a way because the game still needs to be fun, and I think the director knew how to balance theme and playability.

I played Demon's Souls, but that has the excuse of being a predecessor. After DS1 they went backwards in that regard. Sadly I have not, in fact, played Bloodborne. Not really sure what I can say regarding the sense of hopelessness besides "I disagree" without writing a five thousand word comparative essay. Suffice to say, the fact that half the characters read as depressed and end up losing the will to continue, thereby becoming empty husks seems pretty dark to me.

 

[Addendum_Forthcoming]

This one always felt... different to me. I like it but compared to 1 and 3 it feels like a fangame.

I have the same feeling towards DS3, however. 1 was, well, 1. 2 Introduced new mechanics, new ideas, new land(s?), more mob-based ideas to battle sequences. Bloodborne introduced 'aggressive timing', a focus of swift and precise movement skills, a phenomenal story and worldbuilding. DS3 felt like it was a third the length of all others, and felt like a fan copy of BB but DS-stylistic choices ... that didn't even depart from the mold that DS2 did.

Keeping the speed, but losing the rally bonus. Halving the length of game content, and kind of failed to deliver a new and interesting twist on the world of Dark Souls.

 

[hanselthecaretaker]

The Rotten was the toughest boss yet going solo. Well, him and the Gargoyles a close second. Far cry opposite of Covetous Demon who was probably the biggest pushover next to King Allant from Demon's Souls. Really helped scaling Endurance and Adaptability for rolling because he closes distance too well and blocking eats up too much stamina. Also not sure why that Woodland dude has been the only red phantom that kept reappearing.

The portal beyond the bonfire must be something to do with offering the Four Great souls once acquired, but absent on lore. Same with the guy in the wheelchair in the cave opened with Forgotten Key. I couldn't hear much of what he said because of all the commotion above.

Have pretty much cleared everything up to Iron Keep so will tackle that next.

 

[CaitSeith]

The Rotten was the toughest boss yet going solo. Far cry opposite of Covetous Demon who was probably the biggest pushover next to King Allant from Demon's Souls. Really helped scaling Endurance and Adaptability for rolling because he closes distance too well and blocking eats up too much stamina. Also not sure why that Woodland dude has been the only red phantom that kept reappearing.

The portal beyond the bonfire must be something to do with offering the Four Great souls once acquired, but absent on lore. Same with the guy in the wheelchair in the cave opened with Forgotten Key.

Have pretty much cleared everything up to Iron Keep so will tackle that next.

The Rotten hits hard, but I found him too predictable to be difficult.

It's funny how the "spider town" becomes much easier if you carry a torch all the time (they certainly loved to give much more importance to torches in this game)

 

[Sniper Team 4]

Also not sure why that Woodland dude has been the only red phantom that kept reappearing.

The portal beyond the bonfire must be something to do with offering the Four Great souls once acquired, but absent on lore. Same with the guy in the wheelchair in the cave opened with Forgotten Key. I couldn't hear much of what he said because of all the commotion above.

Have pretty much cleared everything up to Iron Keep so will tackle that next.

1) There are actually two Woodland Child invaders, so you may be fighting the second one.

2) I'm not sure what you mean by portal. Are you talking about the place after The Rotten, that has that fountain with the snakes? Because that's a whole new area that you're going to want to explore.

3) Guy in the wheelchair is playing a game with you basically. You need to find him three times total--so two more times for you--and then he'll let you do something which I won't spoil for you.


Oddly enough, Dark Souls II is my favorite out of all the games. I don't know why, seeing as Dark Souls beats it in nearly every single way, but II is always the one I go back to. Dark Souls, once I got the platinum, I haven't touched it since. But II I find myself going back to every now and then just for fun. I think it has something to do with how the game's story and lore leaves just enough up to speculation that my imagination can run with it and I can come up with my own stories.

 

[hanselthecaretaker]

Also not sure why that Woodland dude has been the only red phantom that kept reappearing.

The portal beyond the bonfire must be something to do with offering the Four Great souls once acquired, but absent on lore. Same with the guy in the wheelchair in the cave opened with Forgotten Key. I couldn't hear much of what he said because of all the commotion above.

Have pretty much cleared everything up to Iron Keep so will tackle that next.

1) There are actually two Woodland Child invaders, so you may be fighting the second one.

2) I'm not sure what you mean by portal. Are you talking about the place after The Rotten, that has that fountain with the snakes? Because that's a whole new area that you're going to want to explore.

3) Guy in the wheelchair is playing a game with you basically. You need to find him three times total--so two more times for you--and then he'll let you do something which I won't spoil for you.


Oddly enough, Dark Souls II is my favorite out of all the games. I don't know why, seeing as Dark Souls beats it in nearly every single way, but II is always the one I go back to. Dark Souls, once I got the platinum, I haven't touched it since. But II I find myself going back to every now and then just for fun. I think it has something to do with how the game's story and lore leaves just enough up to speculation that my imagination can run with it and I can come up with my own stories.

- I wonder if they look the same. I could've sworn I killed the second one twice, but perhaps wasn't paying attention to the name. I think the first died when I dropped to the ledge below. Second was easily dispatched if you have ranged ammo or items and go through the tunnel and take the elevator to the opening. He's easy to pick off from above haha.

- Yeah, but it was still closed for me. I'll return when I have two more Great Souls I suppose.

- I've seen the wheelchair guy before but can't remember where.

So far I'm really enjoying this one too. Was kinda expecting to find more weapons and shields by now though since it's apparently the most content-heavy of all the games. I really feel like so far the biggest thing missing or flaw is the seamless interconnected world building. It's like it was trying to combine the hub style of Demon's with the open design of DS1. Like I said I haven't experienced any wtf hit boxes or rage-inducing mobs (yet). The level and boss variety have been more than ok as well.

 

[hanselthecaretaker]

Iron Keep was pretty challenging. The flame statues before the Iron King were kinda tricky, only because there were a couple of the ogre trolls hiding in the paths that needed to be lured out since I didn't have stamina to power through them. Iron King himself was a bit of a push over as his attacks were slow and only his breath was a threat by way of proximity on a smallish platform. Only took three tries solo, and one more Great Soul to go.

I remembered I left one fog gate unspoiled, so went back and got properly introduced to Smelter Demon. He was quite a bit more of a challenge through being more aggressive and having some impressive buffs that make Ornstein and Smough seem like the Hardly Boys. First attempt solo was around half a life bar futile, but a second attempt with my own buff of a one Lucatiel of Mirrah summoning proved to be a jolly good time.

I know there is a trophy that involves her co-op x 3 but this was the first I've used her. Perhaps a bonfire buff will rekindle my earlier chances at her accompaniment.

 

[Johnny Novgorod]

This one always felt... different to me. I like it but compared to 1 and 3 it feels like a fangame.

Am I wrong or was it made by a different team?

 

[hanselthecaretaker]

This one always felt... different to me. I like it but compared to 1 and 3 it feels like a fangame.

Am I wrong or was it made by a different team?

It was made by From's "B" team while Miyazaki and the "A" team (hehe) focused on Bloodborne. Miyazaki still played an advisory roll but his skillful world building is most noticeably absent in DS2.


However, I will say that I've been pleasantly surprised by the sheer variety and generally upheld detail of 2's environments, regardless of how disjointed most of them are. Another nice surprise was rain, which made for an incredibly atmospheric and pleasing reveal of Drangleic Castle at night. Now I just have to find the last Great Soul so I can get into the place.

 

[bartholen_v1legacy]

Nice to hear someone have their expectations exceeded by DSII. It is a bit of a black sheep in the family, but I put more hours into it than any other Souls game, if only for its sheer length. I also think it has the best and most refined gameplay of the entire series before DSIII devolved into cartwheeling olympics and ridiculous anime flips [keU_TvvutAI].

The portals beyond the primal bonfires are... a bit more esoteric in their purpose than in the original. The means to unlock their meaning are way more hidden, and some require really going out of your way to discover them. But, once you do find out what they mean, whether through a wiki or gameplay, I think you'll be greatly pleased.

Keep it coming, these threads are always fun!

 

[Comic Sans]

About the fountain you saw past the The Rotten, there's actually a different way to unlock the door past it, not getting the Great Souls. I won't just spoil it for you here but suffice to say it can be a little tricky to do if you're going in blind but totally worth it.

I'm glad you're enjoying the game as well. It's actually the first Souls game I played to completion, and by far the one I've put the most time into. There's a lot of bang for your buck, especially if you got the DLC. The combat and gear options feel so good compared to the others, and the open nature of the early game means you can quite easily get builds you want to try going early. While it has a lot of flaws and technically the first is more of a gaming achievement, DS2 holds a special place in my heart. DS3 was such a let down for me in comparison. Way too much fan service, overly linear, bad weapon balance (which to be fair I heard they patched to a degree), and a weird combo of Bloodborne aggression but Dark Souls mechanics which could sometimes be really aggravating.

Keep it up, you'll keep enjoying yourself. Especially once you get to the Crowns DLC. Those are some of the best content Dark Souls has.

Edit: The reason the game felt stiff early on was likely because rolling isn't just based on equip load anymore. The Adaptability stat adds more invincibility frames to your rolling. When you start the game you don't have many points in the stat so your rolls are less effective. Equip mode is more lenient in this one when it comes to roll speed, I believe that there is not much change until you go to heavy load, unlike DS1 where there were several stages of roll speeds.