Dark Souls: an experiment in logic

[The White Hunter]

snip

See I've always felt as though I was cheating if I pulled out a strategy guide on my first playthrough. On subsequent playthroughs I would usually reference one to see what all I missed the first time through though, so I'm not completely opposed to them. I just figure that the developer laid things out in a certain way to promote exploration/experimentation so I followed them. This is honestly the first game I've seen where a strategy guide will literally give you the physical strategy required to beat enemies, so I feel it would be more detrimental than an easy mode. On the other hand it is a matter of self restraint, so I don't see the issue with implementing such an idea.

That's fine if you don't want to use a strategy guide, and that's kind of my point. Soul's games aren't hard, they just demand trial and imrpovement (not trial and error), and thoughtfulness and patience. For some that's annoying and they just want to experience the world and content, and they can use a strategy guide for a much less frustrating experience, whilst those like you can willfully ignore it's existence and maybe use it to enhance a second playthrough or exploration in the post-game, and those like me who will turn to it after a few hours of failure and reaching the point of "ok just what the fuck is this thing weak to!?" for a quick reference for an elemental weakness and the like on occasions where I just desperately want to move on to the next challenge.

Frankly you could apply the same theory to a lot of games these days. Final Fantasy could do with being a bit harder again, same with pokemon! (Though Black & white 2 require grinding, which I just do not do so it's fairly challenging so far.)

The best thing is that such a guide is a separate thing to the game, and can be used to enhance the game for everyone, without detracting from the games artistic integrity or indeed the developers vision of the game.

You could of course keep things out of the guide, like the recently revealed pendant function in Dark Souls.

[small]I also like maps for post games and such. Especially poster maps.[/small]

 

[The White Hunter]

snip

See I've always felt as though I was cheating if I pulled out a strategy guide on my first playthrough. On subsequent playthroughs I would usually reference one to see what all I missed the first time through though, so I'm not completely opposed to them. I just figure that the developer laid things out in a certain way to promote exploration/experimentation so I followed them. This is honestly the first game I've seen where a strategy guide will literally give you the physical strategy required to beat enemies, so I feel it would be more detrimental than an easy mode. On the other hand it is a matter of self restraint, so I don't see the issue with implementing such an idea.

I did my first playthrough of Dark Souls completely blind, although I am a Demon's Souls vet so it's hard to gauge how it would measure up to a first time experience with the game system. This probably led to me doing things that new people would not normally do, like suicide dashes to pick things up etc

I can absolutely attest to a strat guide ruining the game though. I looked at one for one of the worlds of Demon's Souls when I was first playing that and the game was suddenly very very different and I really wished I hadn't looked. Fortunately it was just for that one section but I knew I wouldn't go near one for Dark Souls.

From Software have a way of setting up places and events that almost subconsciously train you for other areas or techniques. Often it is a fantastically brutal lesson of misery and death but you learn quite fast from that. If you don't learn then you aren't improving.

I agree, in my post above I tried to explain and justify the idea. It's definately a better option than an easy mode would be in my opinion, though Soul's games I'd personally avoid a strategy guide and spoilers because it defeats the point of what makes the games special.

For content tourists and atmosphere sponges that are faint of heart it would enhance their experience without affecting your experience like an easy mode would.

 

[Tallim]

snip

See I've always felt as though I was cheating if I pulled out a strategy guide on my first playthrough. On subsequent playthroughs I would usually reference one to see what all I missed the first time through though, so I'm not completely opposed to them. I just figure that the developer laid things out in a certain way to promote exploration/experimentation so I followed them. This is honestly the first game I've seen where a strategy guide will literally give you the physical strategy required to beat enemies, so I feel it would be more detrimental than an easy mode. On the other hand it is a matter of self restraint, so I don't see the issue with implementing such an idea.

I did my first playthrough of Dark Souls completely blind, although I am a Demon's Souls vet so it's hard to gauge how it would measure up to a first time experience with the game system. This probably led to me doing things that new people would not normally do, like suicide dashes to pick things up etc

I can absolutely attest to a strat guide ruining the game though. I looked at one for one of the worlds of Demon's Souls when I was first playing that and the game was suddenly very very different and I really wished I hadn't looked. Fortunately it was just for that one section but I knew I wouldn't go near one for Dark Souls.

From Software have a way of setting up places and events that almost subconsciously train you for other areas or techniques. Often it is a fantastically brutal lesson of misery and death but you learn quite fast from that. If you don't learn then you aren't improving.

I agree, in my post above I tried to explain and justify the idea. It's definately a better option than an easy mode would be in my opinion, though Soul's games I'd personally avoid a strategy guide and spoilers because it defeats the point of what makes the games special.

For content tourists and atmosphere sponges that are faint of heart it would enhance their experience without affecting your experience like an easy mode would.

It was incredible what a difference reading up on that one section of Demon's Souls made. It fundamentally altered my view of the experience and left that bit a bit hollow in my mind.

I actually get annoyed now when I see people trying the game asking for "tips" early on and almost always the first thing that gets suggested is exactly how to acquire the Drake's Sword which really undermines your learning early game as you don't have to deal with longer fights with mooks etc.

 

[barbzilla]

snip

See I've always felt as though I was cheating if I pulled out a strategy guide on my first playthrough. On subsequent playthroughs I would usually reference one to see what all I missed the first time through though, so I'm not completely opposed to them. I just figure that the developer laid things out in a certain way to promote exploration/experimentation so I followed them. This is honestly the first game I've seen where a strategy guide will literally give you the physical strategy required to beat enemies, so I feel it would be more detrimental than an easy mode. On the other hand it is a matter of self restraint, so I don't see the issue with implementing such an idea.

That's fine if you don't want to use a strategy guide, and that's kind of my point. Soul's games aren't hard, they just demand trial and imrpovement (not trial and error), and thoughtfulness and patience. For some that's annoying and they just want to experience the world and content, and they can use a strategy guide for a much less frustrating experience, whilst those like you can willfully ignore it's existence and maybe use it to enhance a second playthrough or exploration in the post-game, and those like me who will turn to it after a few hours of failure and reaching the point of "ok just what the fuck is this thing weak to!?" for a quick reference for an elemental weakness and the like on occasions where I just desperately want to move on to the next challenge.

Frankly you could apply the same theory to a lot of games these days. Final Fantasy could do with being a bit harder again, same with pokemon! (Though Black & white 2 require grinding, which I just do not do so it's fairly challenging so far.)

The best thing is that such a guide is a separate thing to the game, and can be used to enhance the game for everyone, without detracting from the games artistic integrity or indeed the developers vision of the game.

You could of course keep things out of the guide, like the recently revealed pendant function in Dark Souls.

[small]I also like maps for post games and such. Especially poster maps.[/small]

Wait they announced what the pendant does? *rushes to look it up*
.
..
...
....
WTF; really? It does absolutely nothing. It was something they added to the game to have no function. Blah! Its genius though. Many people spent quite a number of hours trying to figure it out, hell I tried to figure it out for a bit (after I found out about Arty's insanity due to the pendant I started experimenting there).

I think we have reached an agreeable median point though in the argument. Just include a guide with the purchase. If they want to use it and lessen their experience fine, let them.

 

[Shadowcreed]

I love the way multiplayer is tied into the game. I'm part of the Forest hunters and always wear the ring so I can potentially invade to defend the forest. However what I've found is that ppl that actually invade the forest are usually guys that are overly geared for their soul level, and usually if you do manage to drop them they have over 200k souls - so yeah that's a bit fishy. Kinda cheapens the game down if you encounter such a player and pick up that many souls, managed to level up 4x and get my gear upgraded to +10 far before I should have been able to.

While I love the PvP in the game it really does have these annoying occurrences where you do something and the game doesn't respond, maybe its lag, maybe its the mechanics behind it. The whole backstabbing is seriously buggy, whoever lags the most lands it (at least that's how I feel it happens, I'm not that great at it but I've studied the mechanics of it and srsly that stuff is pretty badly implemented.)

TLR - PvP in Dark Souls is the most fun thing of the game for me - the randomness of being invaded or summoned to invade or assist makes it fun 24/7.
Downside - the game suffers from massive lag and occasional lag spikes (at least at my experience) to the point where PvP can be rather sucky. Especially when both of you are fishing for backstab because that's just the most efficient way to go... Feels like it takes the skill away. I suppose a good player just avoids getting backstabbed at all, though I never manage to do so. [also, Wrath of the Gods spamm is fckn lame and shouldn't be done -.-']
There's some really lame elements to the PvP in Dark Souls -yeah everything can be countered but I don't want to be 1 shotted by a player that seemidly was because of a lucky backstab or some lag spike so that you missed a parry...

 

[Rooster Cogburn]

I love the way multiplayer is tied into the game. I'm part of the Forest hunters and always wear the ring so I can potentially invade to defend the forest. However what I've found is that ppl that actually invade the forest are usually guys that are overly geared for their soul level, and usually if you do manage to drop them they have over 200k souls - so yeah that's a bit fishy. Kinda cheapens the game down if you encounter such a player and pick up that many souls, managed to level up 4x and get my gear upgraded to +10 far before I should have been able to.

While I love the PvP in the game it really does have these annoying occurrences where you do something and the game doesn't respond, maybe its lag, maybe its the mechanics behind it. The whole backstabbing is seriously buggy, whoever lags the most lands it (at least that's how I feel it happens, I'm not that great at it but I've studied the mechanics of it and srsly that stuff is pretty badly implemented.)

TLR - PvP in Dark Souls is the most fun thing of the game for me - the randomness of being invaded or summoned to invade or assist makes it fun 24/7.
Downside - the game suffers from massive lag and occasional lag spikes (at least at my experience) to the point where PvP can be rather sucky. Especially when both of you are fishing for backstab because that's just the most efficient way to go... Feels like it takes the skill away. I suppose a good player just avoids getting backstabbed at all, though I never manage to do so. [also, Wrath of the Gods spamm is fckn lame and shouldn't be done -.-']
There's some really lame elements to the PvP in Dark Souls -yeah everything can be countered but I don't want to be 1 shotted by a player that seemidly was because of a lucky backstab or some lag spike so that you missed a parry...

You are correct about the lag. I don't know if it matters which player is more laggy. When I see someone sprinting toward me like they're going back stab fishing, I usually just put my shield up and back away from them. Eventually they realize I'm not interested in letting them just fish for back stabs.

On the other hand, sometimes it just happens and they never intended it. On their screen, it looks like you have made a mistake and left yourself exposed for a legitimate back stab. On your screen, they literally teleport behind you and back stab. It's bullshit but it's not really their fault. You may not know which back stabs you got by outplaying your opponent and which were the result of lag.

I think most players have decided that, since there is nothing to be done about this issue, the only thing to do is just accept it as part of the game, and adjust your strategy accordingly. That's not exactly ideal, but it seems to be the best we will get until the next title. I think they are aware how badly the lag situation impacted this game. I hope they really focus on fixing that for the next title.

I have heard Wrath of the Gods is actually pretty balanced once you get used to the timing for dodging out of it. I don't have enough experience to say though. The people who have tried using it against me either killed me by other means or weren't using it very effectively.

 

[DrunkOnEstus]

The game is already a success and nothing more is needed. As long as they keep the servers up, they can stop support and we would be fine.

I just wanted to add that we don't have to worry about that with Dark. Due to all the issues with Demon's and people petitioning to keep the main server running longer and continuing to spend that money, Dark uses a P2P system. Basically, as long as people are still playing you'll be able to play with them. I think this is partly why the world tendency thing was done away with (other than you having no control over it online).

Either way, I think it's great that on the internet a conclusion and middle ground was reached through intelligent discussion and respect, with nobody getting banned. A victory was had here.

 

[TrevHead]

Saw this article about the makers of Hitman having trouble getting playtesters to improvise. Makes me wonder how badly some gamers today are conditioned with rail roading and handholding.

http://www.gamasutra.com/view/news/180845/New_Hitman_asks_players_to_improvise_but_have_they_forgotten_how.php

 

[Rooster Cogburn]

Saw this article about the makers of Hitman having trouble getting playtesters to improvise. Makes me wonder how badly some gamers today are conditioned with rail roading and handholding.

http://www.gamasutra.com/view/news/180845/New_Hitman_asks_players_to_improvise_but_have_they_forgotten_how.php

Reminds me of this interview where they talk about the people playtesting Dishonored:

GON: It's cool because there's a lot of ways up the stairs, but it still felt a bit railroad-ey. What did people do before you put these clues in?

Julien: People would just walk around. They didn't know what to do. They didn't even go upstairs because a guard told them they couldn't. They'd say "Okay, I can't go upstairs." They wouldn't do anything.

Sounds like the exact same situation. I don't think those people are dummies or anything, I just think they're understandably accustomed to being told exactly what to do. And when the game doesn't tell them explicitly how to progress, I imagine they probably feel like something is wrong. They may even feel like they did something wrong. That's just what games are like these days. That's part of the reason Dark Souls is so refreshing. Dark Souls says to the player "You know what? Enough is enough. You figure it out."

 

[barbzilla]

snip

Maybe its because I used to be a tester, but I don't play games the way the developers hand them to me. I tend to say "Hey I wonder if that would work" when I am playing. This has lead me to many empty rooms and many invisible walls, but I still go for it every time. I think it was mostly invisible walls responsible for the current lack of exploration inclination. People have grown so tired of saying hey what's over there, and finding they can't get there, that they just leave it be now.

 

[lapan]

Saw this article about the makers of Hitman having trouble getting playtesters to improvise. Makes me wonder how badly some gamers today are conditioned with rail roading and handholding.

http://www.gamasutra.com/view/news/180845/New_Hitman_asks_players_to_improvise_but_have_they_forgotten_how.php

Reminds me of this interview where they talk about the people playtesting Dishonored:

GON: It's cool because there's a lot of ways up the stairs, but it still felt a bit railroad-ey. What did people do before you put these clues in?

Julien: People would just walk around. They didn't know what to do. They didn't even go upstairs because a guard told them they couldn't. They'd say "Okay, I can't go upstairs." They wouldn't do anything.

Sounds like the exact same situation. I don't think those people are dummies or anything, I just think they're understandably accustomed to being told exactly what to do. And when the game doesn't tell them explicitly how to progress, I imagine they probably feel like something is wrong. They may even feel like they did something wrong. That's just what games are like these days. That's part of the reason Dark Souls is so refreshing. Dark Souls says to the player "You know what? Enough is enough. You figure it out."

Reminds me of this section of the Half Life dev commentary:

Spoiler

 

[The White Hunter]

snip

See I've always felt as though I was cheating if I pulled out a strategy guide on my first playthrough. On subsequent playthroughs I would usually reference one to see what all I missed the first time through though, so I'm not completely opposed to them. I just figure that the developer laid things out in a certain way to promote exploration/experimentation so I followed them. This is honestly the first game I've seen where a strategy guide will literally give you the physical strategy required to beat enemies, so I feel it would be more detrimental than an easy mode. On the other hand it is a matter of self restraint, so I don't see the issue with implementing such an idea.

That's fine if you don't want to use a strategy guide, and that's kind of my point. Soul's games aren't hard, they just demand trial and imrpovement (not trial and error), and thoughtfulness and patience. For some that's annoying and they just want to experience the world and content, and they can use a strategy guide for a much less frustrating experience, whilst those like you can willfully ignore it's existence and maybe use it to enhance a second playthrough or exploration in the post-game, and those like me who will turn to it after a few hours of failure and reaching the point of "ok just what the fuck is this thing weak to!?" for a quick reference for an elemental weakness and the like on occasions where I just desperately want to move on to the next challenge.

Frankly you could apply the same theory to a lot of games these days. Final Fantasy could do with being a bit harder again, same with pokemon! (Though Black & white 2 require grinding, which I just do not do so it's fairly challenging so far.)

The best thing is that such a guide is a separate thing to the game, and can be used to enhance the game for everyone, without detracting from the games artistic integrity or indeed the developers vision of the game.

You could of course keep things out of the guide, like the recently revealed pendant function in Dark Souls.

[small]I also like maps for post games and such. Especially poster maps.[/small]

Wait they announced what the pendant does? *rushes to look it up*
.
..
...
....
WTF; really? It does absolutely nothing. It was something they added to the game to have no function. Blah! Its genius though. Many people spent quite a number of hours trying to figure it out, hell I tried to figure it out for a bit (after I found out about Arty's insanity due to the pendant I started experimenting there).

I think we have reached an agreeable median point though in the argument. Just include a guide with the purchase. If they want to use it and lessen their experience fine, let them.

I know I found that hilariuous, I personally expected that kind of trickery from the developer and thus never worried about it much.

I think we have though I'm not sure making the inclusion mandatory would be financially appealling to customers, though if we're talking £50 and you included a guide and maybe a lenticular case or steelbook then that'd be a brilliant deal for all involved!

 

[The White Hunter]

snip

Maybe its because I used to be a tester, but I don't play games the way the developers hand them to me. I tend to say "Hey I wonder if that would work" when I am playing. This has lead me to many empty rooms and many invisible walls, but I still go for it every time. I think it was mostly invisible walls responsible for the current lack of exploration inclination. People have grown so tired of saying hey what's over there, and finding they can't get there, that they just leave it be now.

Oh that's definately something I've sadly gotten used to, and I really do play games exploratively, it's why I enjoyed Skyrim so damn much, I love running towards the horizon and finding out just what I can dig up.

I do similar things in multiplayer shooters, I try to climb up things and find new places and such. I remember finding the ways up the cliffs in Laguna Presa on Bad Company 2 maybe 2 weeks after the game came out on my own and it took WEEKS before anyone figured out how to get up there.

I've never worked as a professional tester but I do tend to try break games and find it hilarious when I manage to. I managed to completely break Resident Evil 6's AI for example, it got stuck walking around a barrell and I couldn't persuade it to do anything else without killing myself.

 

[FieryTrainwreck]

The great big "secret" about Dark Souls: it's not a skill-based game. It's all about learning, adapting, and problem solving.

Ninja Gaiden. Devil May Cry. Serious Sam. These games test your skill. Anyone who can play these games with even mild proficiency has 10x the skill needed to best Dark Souls. But a lot of these people fail at this game because they don't bring the right mindset.

Instead of getting frustrated and throwing your hands up in the air, think about precisely what's happening to you. Then think logically about why it might be happening.

Are you getting destroyed by a group of enemies you can't seem to damage? Maybe you've ventured into a higher level area too soon. Maybe you don't have the right equipment yet.

Are you dying to an environmental hazard? Maybe you're lacking the right resistances or item properties. Maybe you need to perform certain actions that change the environment entirely.

Are you struggling to stay alive in general? Maybe you need to adopt a more defensive combat posture complete with the appropriate gear and stats?

Are you unable to roll out of the way of boss attacks? Maybe you're carrying too much weight.

Are you taking way too much damage when struck? Maybe you need to invest in endurance so you can equip heavier armor.

If you ask yourself these questions, you can logically predict at least some of the solutions. Then it's just a matter of tracking those solutions down, and that's where exploration pays dividends.

And if all else fails, you can buy a decent shield and spear from the very first merchant you encounter, and that should be enough for you to turtle your way to some better stats and items.

 

[Jfswift]

I don't feel that dark or demons souls are that hard but what they both could benefit from is an optional, extended tutorial area *that* hammers in basic concepts and tests the player with that knowledge before they move on). I'm sure someone will disagree with me but I honestly felt unprepared the first time I played dark souls in particular. The beginning area had complex groups of mobs and not alot of bonfire spots. Armored core suffers from this too. Great game but it skimps on tutorial sections. Demon souls was the best of the three with a relaxing jaunt into the castle. It slowly warmed you up to battle concepts and scenarios. Just my two cents anyway.

 

[Moonlight Butterfly]

Whoops wrong thread don't mind me