Dark Souls III: what to keep, bring back, leave out or change?

[Dango]

My advice is forget any changes that Dark Souls 2 made.

As far as changes from Dark Souls 1... I uh... wouldn't suggest changing anything. Just try to make it something new. Dark Souls 2's mechanics and design felt a lot like "Dark Souls 1, but", and the but usually changed something for the worse, the whole game felt like it had an identity crisis. It wanted to be its own thing but still felt tied down to Dark Souls. So basically, ignore any obligation to make it like old or past games. Make it totally new and fresh, otherwise it will feel very tiresome and boring. We've played Dark Souls before.

 

[Qvar]

Keep:
- Weapon and armor upgrading changes
- Estus changes
- Covenants variety
- Humanity/invasions system.
- Respecs

Remove:
- Uselessness from having Way of blue and guardians of blue being separated covenants.
- Crazy requirements for level 3 pvp convenants, specially BoB
- Some covenants (rat king) were ill-conceived in that the zones they relied on were completely optional and there was 0 reason that anybody would visit them beyond the basic soul level. Hell, doors of pharros sucked balls as a pvp arena, with all the water in there.
- Back to the DkS1 world building and shortcuts, obviously.
- 23348234 bonfires. I don't like running to bosses through the whole level, that's fine, but DS2 just had too many bonfire in some areas.
- Speaking about bosses, DS2 had too many bosses that didn't feel like actual bosses, more like big mobs. Examples: Dragonriders, the congregation. Those substracted epicness from the game average.


I'm ambivalent about SM. I think it's better than SL limits, and they royally fucked up giving agape rings. They sould have made the max range WAY lower, like 10M. That way people would worry much about increasing SM, because they would soon join the pool. The way it is in DkS2, you just keep going and going, always with fewer and fewer people in your range.

 

[DementedSheep]

A change they made to DS2 which I hope they keep is removing the area restriction on summon sings. At least have it extend a fair way so you don't have to sit on your ass twiddling you're thumbs waiting for a summon and can keep playing. I imagine this won't be much of a problem on release but it will be eventually when the player base drops and when you start getting into higher brackets. The fact that I'm stuck in an area I've cleared waiting to be summoned was one of the reasons I didn't co op that much.

 

[Kingjackl]

What I really want out of Dark Souls 3 is to be Dark Souls 1 + Bloodborne with Dark Souls 2 kind of laid off to the side. Sprawling levels instead of linear, creative boss designs, unique environments,etc. That's not to say it wasn't all bad; the PVP and covenant stuff was the most in depth in the series (though it'd be nice to have a PVE convenant akin to Daughter of Chaos), it had the best interface, and I liked the way Majula worked as kind of a growing safe world.

That is something about DS2 that I like, which is that it's (relatively) the most uplifting game in the series. Dark Souls is all about decay, Bloodborne's ending is ambiguous at best, but DS2 actually has you leaving kind of a positive impact on the world, especially with the completed 3 DLCs. It also doesn't do that thing as often where every NPC questline ends with their death. A lot of people might not agree, but I'd like it if DS3 made an attempt at having some kind of happy ending.

 

[bartholen_v1legacy]

The environments should reflect their status more. This doesn't necssarily mean level design, but the places I'm going through should feel epic and big enough to reflect their place in the lore. Perhaps the biggest disappointment of all in Dark Souls II in this regard was the Undead Crypt. Throughout the game you're told to go see Vendrick, how he retreated into the Undead Crypt, and how it's a place where light holds no sway. I was expecting something on par with Tomb of the Giants in terms of difficulty and atmosphere, and something at least as massive as Anor Londo. Instead, it's a crappy couple of corridors with boring "dude in armor" enemies you can run through in a matter of minutes. Black Gulch was also another case of this: a massive, unnatural cavern filled with poison statues, horrifying, monstrous enemies and a descent into unknown depths... that you can basically run past without taouching anything.

Bring back parrying from Dark Souls 1. Maybe I'm shit, but I couldn't for the life of me figure out how it was supposed to work in the second one. in DS1 it was simple: just before the strike's about to hit you, you parry. But in DSII every shield has a different parry time, different animation, and the timing seems to be different for every enemy's every attack. Made the whole thing one long exercise in frustration.

Kind of a no brainer, but keep the weight system from DSII. Fatrolling when above 50% load in DS1 was just ridiculous, and meant that Havel's Ring was basically mandatory for any heavy armour build.

Make Reaper weapons worth a shit as a PvE weapon. I don't know how much they're worth in PvP, but against the game itself they're absolute shit.

 

[Ryallen]

Keep the speed of Bloodborne's combat. I enjoy the tense excitement of being the one to initiate the attacks rather than the one to just circle until the enemy attacks and either parry or just backstab.

Get rid of the humanity system. It added weight to each death and made me afraid to die even once to a boss. Or, at least, make it slightly easier to get humanity. Make sure that it's an infinite resource, not something that can run out once you beat the game.

Quick Estus drinking. I hate that Dark Souls II had Estus be the slowest fucking thing in the game. Make it quick again.

Think of lore that answers questions from Dark Souls 1 and 2. Such as, how does one go Hollow? What happened between DkS1 and DkS2 that allowed the world to keep going and allow more kingdoms to rise and fall?

Non-humanoid bosses should be more common, like everyone else says.

You guys remember those things that were dropped from Dark Souls 1, such as the roaming Black Knights, the lore hidden in the files, Oscar's significant role? Yeah? Please, please please PLEASE do stuff like that here. Take your time if you need to. Give us things that weren't present in previous games, such as more character interaction and random encounters with NPCs.

Gonna try and answer a bit here with my own opinions.

If you needed BB to feel tense, you really weren't playing DS any way but as Thomas the Tank. I don't mean to offend, but there were always other ways to play. Hell, the highest level PvP matches were about out-positioning and knowing when to attack and when to roll. Sitting behind a shield was to your detriment with alot of bosses in DS2 too.

The whole point of the game is that each death has weight, but also be nothing but a bit of progress lost. And Humanity was barely ever a finite resource, if it ever was...

The whole point of slow Estus was because there was alot of DS1 strats that revolved around the sippy cup that basically made the game too easy for alot of folks. I like the slow Estus, it helps you kill enemies with healing just as often as it hinders your own drinking. Don't want to sit there for five seconds? Learn to not get hit and learn when you can and can't afford to take a drink.

As for your lore question...you cna't be serious right? It's explained pretty in-depth in DS1 and 2. Humans aren't supposed to exist in the same state as the "Gods" in the same age. Their bodies decay because that's not what they're supposed to be linked to in the Age of Dark. Gwyn fucked up the cycle by linking the fire and made it go half-sies. And the thing with kingdoms is sorta alluded to in alot of the architecture of DS1. Some of it is VERY OLD, and some is downright ANCIENT(Think the difference between Darkroot and Anor Londo or New Londo and Izalith). Other kingdoms rose and fell in the period of time between when Gwyn fought the dragons and his own fall from grace. And that's ignoring that there's a pretty good chance that you aren't exactly from the time period that you are stuck in at the start of the game.

But yeah, non-humanoid bosses need to be more often. Unfortunately, outside of Seathe(and I'm reaching even for him), there's not really any interesting things for them. So many strats are just "sit in ass and stick the pointy end up".

Let me respond with a few things of my own.

Alright, tense was the wrong word. But Bloodborne DID have the better combat if only it was more proaction-focused rather than reaction-focused. You were the one to attack first rather than the enemy. It was faster in Bloodborne and I really liked that.

Losing 6 humanity is not a little progress lost. I had to grind for that. Given that humanity is only dropped by rats, and they only appear in two areas, and liquid humanity is an incredibly rare drop from enemies, there aren't that many solid humanities around the game world anyways, and you get one or two solid humanities from bosses, I would say that it is rare enough to merit an increase in number, or at least make it easier to obtain. And I was referring more to Human Effigies in terms of being a limited resource and I don't want that to be a thing in the next game.

The whole point that slow Estus was a thing in DkS2 was because there were multiple healing items in the game that could compensate for it, and now that they have been removed, I don't see a reason why there has to be a stat associated with Estus recovery speed.

I'm still very unclear about how characters go Hollow and I do think that there were questions in DkS1 and can and should be answered in DkS3. I know that the given excuse is that Undead go Hollow when they lose hope, but there's still the idea that there are bodies everywhere, even though when you die, your body disappears. I can't think of any more questions right now, but it was less of a bash on DkS lore and more of what I'm hoping with be explained in DkS3.

 

[Danbo Jambo]

While waiting for Dark Souls III, let's think about what features from the series (including Bloodborne) you'd like to see kept, brought back, and... well you read the title. Here's a small list of mine, without having played Bloodborne:

1. Keep the bonfires next to boss fights. DSII was a bit too generous with bonfires in general, but having them right next to tough boss fights is something I'm in retrospect grateful for. Because after going back to DS1 a bit and spending an hour fighting the Bed of Chaos, most of which was spent just running back to the fight and then getting knocked down to a pit again, didn't exactly feel challenging. Or rewarding. Or entertaining. It's just a pointless waste of time. Same goes for Demon's Souls. Fuck you Valley of Defilement!

2. Keep the upgrading system from DSII. It's just the most intuitive and least fussy of the series. No contest. Demon's Souls' system led you to hoarding materials you never used, and DS1's was rather clunky and unintuitive.

3. Bring back Estus being single speed. This is probably a matter of taste, but I prefer the Estus being a single, reliable use, not something I have to ponder on while choosing my stats. If you made a tank build in DSII and chose not to put much into ADP, successful heals in some boss fights bordered on impossible.

4. Change how the turf covenants operate. Having to wear a special ring if you wanted to take part in the Bell or Rat King covenant PvP invasions was IMO ultimately crippling, and may have left many players without experiencing them. It works fine as long as the playerbase is big and invades frequently, but now you'll be hard pressed to be called to defend your turf even once in a session (at least where I live). This could perhaps be an item you could activate and deactivate separately, depending whether you wanted to partake in the invasions or not.

There's a start. Your turn.

Great suggestions.

Dark Souls is a game I kinda enjoyed. 7/10 for me. It is though in no way the classic which some make it out to be simply because of your 1st suggestion - too much time spent doing chore-like tasks such as running from point A to B over & over, and thus being immersed in pointless, dull, ultra repetative behaviour time & time again.

 

[bartholen_v1legacy]

Bring back the illusory walls the way they were in DS1. Them being completely indiscernible from normal walls in DSII encouraged trolling than anything else, and just felt like a cheap way to add secret areas to the game. Though that said, don't pull a stunt like Ash Lake again. Hiding one of the most visually impressive and atmospheric areas behind an invisible wall behind another invisible wall that's already in one of the farthest corners of the entire game just makes you a dick.

 

[bartholen_v1legacy]

Get rid of the humanity system. It added weight to each death and made me afraid to die even once to a boss. Or, at least, make it slightly easier to get humanity. Make sure that it's an infinite resource, not something that can run out once you beat the game.

Since you corrected that you were talking about Human Effigies, I don't really get this. There were lots of merchants who sold them in DS2, usually for a reasonable amount of souls, and you could even farm them from dogs at the Lost Bastille for example. I never got the feeling they were a particularly scarce, or even finite, resource. Plus defeating a boss as a summon restored you back to humanity anyway.

Now, the system where your health bar diminishes from every death, that's a system I could do without. Having only half a health bar in Demon's Souls after dying was absolutely maddening and there the game's version of Humanity was a really scarce resource. Perhaps you could have the player be a bit more vulnerable as a Hollow, but only as a binary system, not a system where you get weaker every time you die.

 

[KingsGambit_v1legacy]

I was late to the party for both games. I just finished DS2: SotFS a couple of days ago after 90 hours. There was a lot to like, and a few things I wasn't to keen on.

The negatives:
- The Gutter. Shrine of Amana. Fuck both those places.
- Durability...I really disliked this mechanic. I hated that I would invest into my favoured weapons only to have them break. I went and farmed a second Dark Silverblack Spear, reinforced both of them and started carrying Repair sorcery around as well. I went as far as getting Santier's Spear for the infinite durability but I had a really hard time adjusting to it.
- Enemy arrows and melee attacks have ludicrous tracking. I watch them homing in on me, all the time.
- Large enemies, bosses in particular, are insanely fast for their size/weapons. I understand they don't strictly follow the same rules as the player, but the game rarely bothered differentiating between slow, hard hitting bosses and much quicker ones.
- Fuck Soul Memory. It's a stupid mechanic. Just let me play coop with whomever I want. I want to play with my friends, don't restrict me by this number/tiered system, name engraved ring, soapstone signs, time limits. F**K OFF! Just let me coop. I understand wanting to make it all lore friendly and in game, but it sucks. Just use steam matchmaking, no fucking restrictions. PvP is a different matter I don't want to get into.
- The various grades of hollow. The game is hard enough as it is. It doesn't need to reduce our max health on top of that. Stupid mechanic, hate it.

The positives:
- The weapons and combat. It's not perfect, but I've been googling for hours and there's nothing like it. The feel and attacks of different weapons, the timings and tactics, makes for fantastic, thoroughly nuanced experience. I wanted to like scythes, like my fire great scythe from DS1, but all the scythes sucked, across the board. Shitty range, shitty moveset...that backstep/hook thing, WTF? I ended up loving spears tho. The Silverblack was my fav weapon, dark infused, dark weapon enchant. LOVE IT.
- Area design. Not all were great, some were lacklustre, but the aesthetic, the attention to detail, the *vibe* of each area is magnificent.
- Exploring and loot. Finding unique items hidden in nooks, illusory walls, the final piece of a cool armour set, a new hex...LOVE IT.
- (Most) Boss fights. Meeting each unique challenge is really fun experience.

Truthfully, there's a lot I could take or leave. Many players might love the ephemeral story. I don't. I prefer something somewhat more explicit. I don't need everything explained to me, but at least a plot and a quest of sorts into which I can get invested. The difficulty...I don't care for it. Sure, it is immensely satisfying when a last second roll and pivot + spear thrust saves the day, but I would welcome an "Easy", "Normal", "Hard" style mechanic to allow me to enjoy the game without the punishment, without affecting other players to enjoy it as they choose. I started NG+ but after failing on Pursuer in FoFG, I realised I CBA...I was exhausted from the first playthru.

In summary: Keep combat, aesthetic, weapon upgrade system (much better than DS1), area design style, etc.
Lose: Durability, Soapstone/Engraved Ring/Soul Memory bollocks, enemy attack tracking, graded hollowing (I did like the visual tho).
Add: Difficulty settings, steam matchmaking coop without restriction, Scythes that don't suck.

 

[stroopwafel]

Add: Difficulty settings, steam matchmaking coop without restriction, Scythes that don't suck.

'Difficulty settings' would break the formula of Dark Souls. People would simply resort to easy mode when the going gets tough and the entire design philosophy and everything they built the game around would fall apart in an instant.

It's best they continue what they did with the previous games. Just built organic difficulty into the game by making some playstyles(defensive, ranged/magic) easier than others(no shields, melee).

 

[Arctic Werewolf]

I hated the "cycles" concept introduced in Dark Souls 2 wherein world events repeat in cycles. It made everything feel more familiar and less mysterious in Dark Souls 2. What happens in Drangleic or Lordraan isn't really that important, because it's just what's supposed to happen once again in a much larger cycle that dwarfs current events in significance. Cycles are overdone in general. And it's an excuse to be lazy in some ways. Should I expect to see another iteration on Duke Seath, Gravelord Nito and Gwyn? See, I already know too much about what to expect because of the durned cycles. Hate it, hate it.

- Dark Souls 1 Health system and humanity. I didn't really get the idea behind the changes. I don't see what they added to the game, except to disrupt what I thought was a pretty elegant system.
- Simplified weapon upgrades from Dark Souls 2. I don't really care that much either way, I just don't see what is gained by having the slightly more complicated upgrade paths.
- Dual-wielding is awesome, and awesome for diversity.
- Ranged attacking has gotten better, but I still think it could use some changes. Something to make it more similar to the dance of risk/reward and choosing the right move at the right time that defines the melee.
- Magic has too many functions that don't see much use. It needs more variety with more useful types of spells and less useless types. Distinguish the magic classes from each other more, too.
- If we're going to do bonfires by boss rooms, make them shortcuts instead. Well, some of them. That might start to feel pretty contrived every single time.

add pause

 

[thetoddo]

I'd really just tweak the PvP/Invasion aspect, and go back to DS1's interconnected and shortcut-heavy level design.

For NG go back to the +/- 10 level restriction and add an equipment nerf where you're weapons and armor are scaled down to the Host's highest level in the slot (If I'm an invader with a +10 weapon and the person I'm invading only has a +4, my weapon scales down to +4 damage). This keeps the fights fair(ish), and it becomes more about skill.

For NG+/onward the equipment nerf goes away, and each NG+ cycle adds an additional +/- 5 levels to the summon/invasion range, so NG+ would have +/- 15, NG++ would have +/- 20, and so on.

If a covenant like the Bluebros exists it should start pulling in your helper as soon as the invader connects to your world so that they arrive at roughly the same time.

Bring back DS1's easier invasion model.

Make the rewards for defeating an invader in Ratbro/Bellbro areas good enough that people will want to go there to get invaded.

Don't penalize covenant standing for losses. (I'm looking at you BoB)

 

[otakon17]

Change the way PvP matching works to avoid "twink" characters with OP weapons/armor coming back to early levels to hound new/weak players. My thought would be for there to be a hidden tally with their equipment and spells equipped and LOCKING that configuration the moment the invasion begins. Someone tries to come in toting the equivalent of Havels and a Greatsword while they're like the equivalent of SL5? They get bumped up to the next highest tier and invade someone around SL40 with half decent gear.

 

[DementedSheep]

- Fuck Soul Memory. It's a stupid mechanic. Just let me play coop with whomever I want. I want to play with my friends, don't restrict me by this number/tiered system, name engraved ring, soapstone signs, time limits. F**K OFF! Just let me coop. I understand wanting to make it all lore friendly and in game, but it sucks. Just use steam matchmaking, no fucking restrictions. PvP is a different matter I don't want to get into.

Unless I'm mistaken Soul Memory only effects PVP, it is suppose to be so you don't get what happened in DS1 where people would do a low SL level play through and then gank new characters with their upgraded gear. Co-op was still based on SL.

I saw a thing on DS3 yesterday and looks like its much much easier to co op with specific people with a password system though I don't know exactly how it works.

Edit: oh and combat looks a lot faster (though not as fast as bloodborne) and magic is on a mana/estus system so no more farming multiple copies of spells and doubling up spells in attunement slots to get more casts. Hitting with magic weapons now also uses mana.

 

[Redryhno]

Edit: oh and combat looks a lot faster (though not as fast as bloodborne) and magic is on a mana/estus system so no more farming multiple copies of spells and doubling up spells in attunement slots to get more casts. Hitting with magic weapons now also uses mana.

Eurgh...estus magic just sounds like it's just gonna be screwing magic builds more than normal, unless they seriously buff damages or introduce some kind of regenerating mechanic. Boss-wise, it was by far the strongest thing in the game most of the time. But normal mooks...you just ran out of spells before you got to the next pause point most of the time, especially with DS1. And you had to build almost EXCLUSIVELY for anything worthwhile there beyond it just being your ranged option.

 

[DementedSheep]

Edit: oh and combat looks a lot faster (though not as fast as bloodborne) and magic is on a mana/estus system so no more farming multiple copies of spells and doubling up spells in attunement slots to get more casts. Hitting with magic weapons now also uses mana.

Eurgh...estus magic just sounds like it's just gonna be screwing magic builds more than normal, unless they seriously buff damages or introduce some kind of regenerating mechanic. Boss-wise, it was by far the strongest thing in the game most of the time. But normal mooks...you just ran out of spells before you got to the next pause point most of the time, especially with DS1. And you had to build almost EXCLUSIVELY for anything worthwhile there beyond it just being your ranged option.

What I saw was network test so I don't know how it will change for release but it seems to be able to cast quite a few (depending on the spell) before needing to use the estus for mana. There were no mana regen items aside from that in the test but it's unknown if they will have some in the final game. You also cast a LOT faster. The impression the people I was watching test had was it that it would make pure mages more viable. With DS1/2 I almost never use magic versus regular enemies and end up stacking multiple copies of whatever spells I need for the boss. If you don't need to do that because it all from the same pool it is at least more flexible.

Another new thing seems to be expanded movesets with stances for weapons and the humanity system has been replaced. It looks similar, where you use "ember" you get a (significant) buff that you lose on death and I think you can't co op without it. You're no longer a zombie when you die this time. The overall impression seems to be DS1 + bloodborne.

 

[DementedSheep]

- Fuck Soul Memory. It's a stupid mechanic. Just let me play coop with whomever I want. I want to play with my friends, don't restrict me by this number/tiered system, name engraved ring, soapstone signs, time limits. F**K OFF! Just let me coop. I understand wanting to make it all lore friendly and in game, but it sucks. Just use steam matchmaking, no fucking restrictions. PvP is a different matter I don't want to get into.

Unless I'm mistaken Soul Memory only effects PVP, it is suppose to be so you don't get what happened in DS1 where people would do a low SL level play through and then gank new characters with their upgraded gear. Co-op was still based on SL.

I saw a thing on DS3 yesterday and looks like its much much easier to co op with specific people with a password system though I don't know exactly how it works.

Edit: oh and combat looks a lot faster (though not as fast as bloodborne) and magic is on a mana/estus system so no more farming multiple copies of spells and doubling up spells in attunement slots to get more casts. Hitting with magic weapons now also uses mana.

You're wrong. The white sign soapstones were still based on soul memory.

I might be, there seems to be a lot of conflicting info on that.

 

[KingsGambit_v1legacy]

- Fuck Soul Memory. It's a stupid mechanic. Just let me play coop with whomever I want. I want to play with my friends, don't restrict me by this number/tiered system, name engraved ring, soapstone signs, time limits. F**K OFF! Just let me coop. I understand wanting to make it all lore friendly and in game, but it sucks. Just use steam matchmaking, no fucking restrictions. PvP is a different matter I don't want to get into.

Unless I'm mistaken Soul Memory only effects PVP, it is suppose to be so you don't get what happened in DS1 where people would do a low SL level play through and then gank new characters with their upgraded gear. Co-op was still based on SL.

I saw a thing on DS3 yesterday and looks like its much much easier to co op with specific people with a password system though I don't know exactly how it works.

Edit: oh and combat looks a lot faster (though not as fast as bloodborne) and magic is on a mana/estus system so no more farming multiple copies of spells and doubling up spells in attunement slots to get more casts. Hitting with magic weapons now also uses mana.

While I was playing it I was on wikis and google so frequently and this was one of the many things I was reading up on. More exact numbers are out there, but my understanding was that, specifically in NG, soul memory placed player characters into "tiers" of a sort. Red/White soapstone marks would only be visible to a range of players close to the same SM (eg. 3 below to 4 above, something like that). The name engraved ring expanded the range, but also restricted soapstone marks to players who chose the same deity (easier to find specific player, harder to find random).

It does affect coop but it's different IIRC in NG+ and beyond. In NG+ there were only 2 tiers I believe, players above and players below 15m.

I realise that it was an effort to fix the problem from the first game, and if it succeeded then that's well and good. But I still thought it was a terrible system. I couldn't find any coop action in NG, or NG+. I'm sure I could figure it out if I had a friend with voice comms and the ring, but it is still a terrible system. I appreciate trying to keep it all in-game and lore friendly, but form should NOT come before function. There should simply be an online menu/interface to search for lobbies, PvE or PvP with no restrictions. Players can flag themselves as open for one or the other and set their own restrictions (eg. SL, SM, whatever). There should be a friends list, or just use steam matchmaking and be done with it.

A good coop game lets me start it, invite/join a friend and get on with it. DS2 has me messing around with inventory items, stats, rings leaving disappearing marks that may never be seen by another person and nebulous limits. It is horrible, unfit for purpose and makes things 20x harder than they need to be. A lobby system, a matchmaking system, a private game system, any of those would be preferable. A password for a private lobby could be a massive step in the right direction, so fingers crossed.

 

[Evonisia]

Oh I have a cosmetic one: keep the nightmare fog walls from Bloodborne.

I despise the cheap looking texture they use for fog in Dark Souls 1 and 2, where it looks less like fog and more like grey cardboard leaking paint. I know it seems like a nitpick (because it is), but given how many boss fights there are in these games you do encounter it a bunch. Especially in Dark Souls II's training area.

On a related note, make it so you always know you're going in to a boss fight. Just entering a room and having a boss fight happen always felt like a cheap shot to me, made all the more frustrating by the fact that later attempts will always have that safe wall of fog asking you if you're sure you want to get stamped on this time.