Dark Souls Remastered - The Original is Not the Best

[CritialGaming]

Okay I know that technically Demon's Souls is the first game in the series, but it is an obscure game that isn't readily available to play to most people interested in the Dark Souls series. For the sake of this argument I am going to refer to Dark Souls 1 as the original game in the Souls series. Now that the disclaimer is out of the way, onto my topic.

My first Dark Souls game was the Scholar of the First Sin version of Dark Souls 2. Even when I was getting into that game, I heard the stories from my friends that had played the first game (and seen the opinion on the internet) that DS2 was inferior to DS1 in every way. But with no reference in mind I ended up really enjoying and liking DS2. After I finished DS2 I looked into getting DS1 but I didn't have a system that I could play it on and I had heard too many things about how janky DS1 was. How Blighttown ruined your FPS, how some other areas of the game just had insane enemy placement, how certain things just didn't work or were so obtuse that you needed a guide to understand.

It's all these things that caused me to basically ignore DS1 even though I played and loved Bloodborne and Dark Souls 3 after beating DS2. I kept being afraid of trying DS1 and dealing with the jank.

Yet this week DS Remastered was on sale for $20 and I figured why not? Even if I don't beat the game I could probably get a ways into it enough to justify the $20 bucks. And hey Blighttown doesn't melt your graphics card anymore so that's a plus.

Having now played through a surprisingly large portion of the game, I think, I have to say....I fucking hate this game.

Design wise, this is easily the worst of the Souls games. It feels like you are almost always fighting in a tight spot and weapon swings seem overly aggressively willing to bound off every wall, pillar, stone, door frame, whatever to ruin your attack and leave you open for an excessively long time. If you get knocked down, you die, because evidently when you get knocked down your character takes a nap just long enough for the enemy to hit you with another knock down swing as you stand up.

Speaking of design, what drugs were they on when they designed the lava zones? Hey you just beat Gulagg? Cool fight 12 Capra demons and 10 Taurus Demons. Make it past that and here is a lava zone with 100 walking dragon asses or whatever the fuck giant two legged whatevers are supposed to be. This is the best Dark Souls game? You can't be serious. Oh welcome to the bed of chaos, where you can't actually get to the tree part your supposed to hit because the boss just bitchslaps you into a hole that suddenly appeared in the ground. Good luck walking through lava hell of dragonass again and again.

Bed of Chaos was where I stopped playing and deleted this piece of trash from my hard drive. Two hours I spend on the Bed of Chaos, each attempt me trying for five seconds to get around the fucking hold in the dirt only to get slapped into it anyway. That's not challenge! That's just fuckery.

Other sections of bullshit is trying to navigate a two inch ledge while archers blast you from both sides with giant arrows, a hydra that just blasts the shit out of you from literaly across the map, a bridge with three incredibly tanky dragons that time their attacks just enough that dodging one gets you hit by the other two, oh and Blighttown can go fuck itself. Even if it no longer drains framerate the way I drain a bottle of Dr. Pepper, the area itself is fucking gastly. Poison floor, poison bugs, poison blow dart fucks from seven directions at once, by the time you get to Gulagg you are coughing your lungs out, even if you just run from the bonfire in the swamp tunnel.

Seriously the design of Dark Souls 1 is shit. They clearly just placed enemies around like a 12 year old designing his first Doom Map where you just sprinkle enemies all over the place at random. There is no logic to enemy placement in at least 75% of the game imo, and the later games show this. Dark Souls 2 and 3 both have some shitty placements designed to jump the player, but they are never cheap enemies and never overwhelming to the point where your first trip through an area 100% is going to kill you. They learned a lot in the later games because I think they knew how bad it was in DS1.

Now look these areas like Lost Isolith and Blighttown are shitty your first trip. But believe me it didn't take me longer to master the bed of Chaos's run back with ease. You do get better playing the game and you can avoid a lot of the Capra and Taurus demons near the Ceaseless Discharge. But that doesn't make it fun. That's the thing. Dark Souls never got fun, it just continued to annoy me in different ways....err well the same way in different places.

You know Ceaseless Discharge would have been a better name for this game. Because that's what it is.

 

[Worgen]

I liked Dark Souls, it was my first experience with the souls series but I think Dark Souls 3 is way better. I think the design of Dark Souls is really good, but there are certainly bullshit moments like the ones you described.

Also, bed of chaos is the easiest, hardest boss fight in the game, easiest because progress carries over between lives, hardest if you are trying not to die. The design of the boss is bullshit, but you only need to go to each side once then just run to the center, unless they changed that for the remaster. I think there is also a bonfire nearby it that you might have missed.

 

[CaitSeith]

"It feels like you are almost always fighting in a tight spot and weapon swings seem overly aggressively willing to bound off every wall, pillar, stone, door frame, whatever to ruin your attack and leave you open for an excessively long time."

Maybe, instead of trying to force-swing your way through, you should had carried a weapon with thrust attacks for battles in tight spaces.

"They clearly just placed enemies around like a 12 year old designing his first Doom Map where you just sprinkle enemies all over the place at random."

Spoiler

 

[CritialGaming]

I liked Dark Souls, it was my first experience with the souls series but I think Dark Souls 3 is way better. I think the design of Dark Souls is really good, but there are certainly bullshit moments like the ones you described.

Also, bed of chaos is the easiest, hardest boss fight in the game, easiest because progress carries over between lives, hardest if you are trying not to die. The design of the boss is bullshit, but you only need to go to each side once then just run to the center, unless they changed that for the remaster. I think there is also a bonfire nearby it that you might have missed.

See. I wish it DIDNT save your progress in the fight, because once the floors are gone, they're gone, and it makes your subsequent attempts harder because you have to navigate around this fucking pit while also getting slapped into it like a pinball.

If it reset everytime, you could in theory try to outrun the timer of the floor falling and memorize the pattern of the floor falling to get it done. But this way is just awful. And honestly I could have handled a bad boss, like whatever, but because the area right before it and the area before that, is just a constant flow of terrible shit, it wore me out.

 

[CritialGaming]

"It feels like you are almost always fighting in a tight spot and weapon swings seem overly aggressively willing to bound off every wall, pillar, stone, door frame, whatever to ruin your attack and leave you open for an excessively long time."

Maybe, instead of trying to force-swing your way through, you should had carried a weapon with thrust attacks for battles in tight spaces.

"They clearly just placed enemies around like a 12 year old designing his first Doom Map where you just sprinkle enemies all over the place at random."

Spoiler

Are you going to sit there and tell me that Lost Isolith is well designed?

I played with the weapons I liked, and the pinging off the walls was the least annoying thing about the game. I know how to adapt and deal with it. But it is still a thing the built up amongst all the other shitty things, which is why i pointed it out here.

 

[CaitSeith]

"It feels like you are almost always fighting in a tight spot and weapon swings seem overly aggressively willing to bound off every wall, pillar, stone, door frame, whatever to ruin your attack and leave you open for an excessively long time."

Maybe, instead of trying to force-swing your way through, you should had carried a weapon with thrust attacks for battles in tight spaces.

"They clearly just placed enemies around like a 12 year old designing his first Doom Map where you just sprinkle enemies all over the place at random."

Spoiler

Are you going to sit there and tell me that Lost Isolith is well designed?

I played with the weapons I liked, and the pinging off the walls was the least annoying thing about the game. I know how to adapt and deal with it. But it is still a thing the built up amongst all the other shitty things, which is why i pointed it out here.

To be fair, I don't blame you for losing it at Lost Izalith and giving up at Bed of Chaos (specially since you already weren't having a good time).

 

[Worgen]

I liked Dark Souls, it was my first experience with the souls series but I think Dark Souls 3 is way better. I think the design of Dark Souls is really good, but there are certainly bullshit moments like the ones you described.

Also, bed of chaos is the easiest, hardest boss fight in the game, easiest because progress carries over between lives, hardest if you are trying not to die. The design of the boss is bullshit, but you only need to go to each side once then just run to the center, unless they changed that for the remaster. I think there is also a bonfire nearby it that you might have missed.

See. I wish it DIDNT save your progress in the fight, because once the floors are gone, they're gone, and it makes your subsequent attempts harder because you have to navigate around this fucking pit while also getting slapped into it like a pinball.

If it reset everytime, you could in theory try to outrun the timer of the floor falling and memorize the pattern of the floor falling to get it done. But this way is just awful. And honestly I could have handled a bad boss, like whatever, but because the area right before it and the area before that, is just a constant flow of terrible shit, it wore me out.

Its better that it stays gone since it will just fall again, its a bullshit fight, no one likes it. Its also the bane of speed runners since its too random. The only good thing about it is that you only need to do each side once, mainly because its almost impossible to do one side and run back then do the other in one life.

 

[stroopwafel]

I played Dark Souls at release(just like it's predecessor Demon's Souls) and absolutely loved it but I probably wouldn't feel the same if I played the game today in reverse order. Bloodborne and Dark Souls 3 improved the gameplay so much that the original has become a chore. I played through the remaster recently as well and some areas still hold up(Burg, catacombs, kiln, the DLC areas) but pretty much every area post-Lordvessel(with the exception of kiln) is shite. Bed of chaos is probably the game's lowest point but the boss fight was apparently outsourced and considered a mistake Miyazaki and the team learned from(as stated in the design works). The rest just feels rushed like they failed to meet a deadline. The game is revered for it's ingeneous corkscrew level design which is still unique but the sequels(espescially BB and DkS3) had obviously way prettier maps and superior gameplay. But ofcourse these games wouldn't exist if they had no prior games to improve upon.

Dark Souls has become somewhat of a significant videogame icon and I think it's well deserved(though I think Demon's Souls is more deserving of that honor but whatever) but feels really dated now compared to BB and DkS3. (and Sekiro though it carries the least amount of Souls DNA).

 

[Xprimentyl]

I fucking hate this game.

To each their own, but anyone who would consider DS2 a superior title to DS1 is absolutely insane. Ok, that might be a bit hyperbolic; let?s go with ?bat-shit crazy.?

Seriously, though, comparing DS1 to DS3 or BB, I could understand preferring it the least as the years of advancements between the titles, but DS2? The game that tried to do everything DS1 did and did so worse? The weightless, cheap, copy/paste-y spamfest of a test of patience? Just? NO.

Don?t be daunted by the length/quantity of these videos, but YouTuber MauLer presents some startling accurate counters to hbomberguy who made a video stating how he feels DS2 is superior to DS1.

?In Defense of Dark Souls 2: A Measured Response? [https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLBBJXQJJavX2t9PW80_xq4zdOLHYbVcm6]

 

[CaitSeith]

I fucking hate this game.

To each their own, but anyone who would consider DS2 a superior title to DS1 is absolutely insane. Ok, that might be a bit hyperbolic; let?s go with ?bat-shit crazy.?

Seriously, though, comparing DS1 to DS3 or BB, I could understand preferring it the least as the years of advancements between the titles, but DS2? The game that tried to do everything DS1 did and did so worse? The weightless, cheap, copy/paste-y spamfest of a test of patience? Just? NO.

Don?t be daunted by the length/quantity of these videos, but YouTuber MauLer presents some startling accurate counters to hbomberguy who made a video stating how he feels DS2 is superior to DS1.

?In Defense of Dark Souls 2: A Measured Response? [https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLBBJXQJJavX2t9PW80_xq4zdOLHYbVcm6]

Gotta wonder the amount of jank contained in a 9 hours long rebuttal.

 

[CritialGaming]

I fucking hate this game.

To each their own, but anyone who would consider DS2 a superior title to DS1 is absolutely insane. Ok, that might be a bit hyperbolic; let?s go with ?bat-shit crazy.?

Seriously, though, comparing DS1 to DS3 or BB, I could understand preferring it the least as the years of advancements between the titles, but DS2? The game that tried to do everything DS1 did and did so worse? The weightless, cheap, copy/paste-y spamfest of a test of patience? Just? NO.

Don?t be daunted by the length/quantity of these videos, but YouTuber MauLer presents some startling accurate counters to hbomberguy who made a video stating how he feels DS2 is superior to DS1.

?In Defense of Dark Souls 2: A Measured Response? [https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLBBJXQJJavX2t9PW80_xq4zdOLHYbVcm6]

But I did compare it to DS3 and BB because I also played those games first. I used DS2 as the main example because DS2 was the first game I played in the series. The whole point I was making in my OP is that DS1 is not the best nor even as good "IMO" as people say it is. Especially when compared directly to the other games.

And also i guess directly comparing to DS2 because people often hate on DS2 for reasons I don't understand. Keep in mind I did not play the original DS2 either, I only played the "Remix" version of the game which had different enemy placements and such within the game that might have made it a much better and different experience than it's original version.

Which begs the question.....Why didn't they fix any of these issues of DS1 for the remaster? Why not instead do a Scholar of the First Game in which they could actively go back and offer a remixed and more refined version of the original game and in turn fix a large number of the problems DS1 had with the benefit of hindsight and experince.

I've seen DS2 v. DS1 reviews and I don't agree with any of them I really don't. I just don't see how people can call DS1 the superior game in anyway except maybe the map design, but even that is iffy to me.

Tell me Xpir, what didn't you like in DS2 that you did like in DS1? What makes you think DS1 was the better experience.

 

[Xprimentyl]

I fucking hate this game.

To each their own, but anyone who would consider DS2 a superior title to DS1 is absolutely insane. Ok, that might be a bit hyperbolic; let?s go with ?bat-shit crazy.?

Seriously, though, comparing DS1 to DS3 or BB, I could understand preferring it the least as the years of advancements between the titles, but DS2? The game that tried to do everything DS1 did and did so worse? The weightless, cheap, copy/paste-y spamfest of a test of patience? Just? NO.

Don?t be daunted by the length/quantity of these videos, but YouTuber MauLer presents some startling accurate counters to hbomberguy who made a video stating how he feels DS2 is superior to DS1.

?In Defense of Dark Souls 2: A Measured Response? [https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLBBJXQJJavX2t9PW80_xq4zdOLHYbVcm6]

Gotta wonder the amount of jank contained in a 9 hours long rebuttal.

So we?re clear, MauLer?s 9-hour response is to hbomberguy?s 45 minute ?In Defense of Darks Souls 2? video; MauLer absolutely SHREDS him where he stands with objective and well-researched points of fact and calls out a shit-ton of his jank. It?s actually quite impressive and worth the listen.

Tell me Xpir, what didn't you like in DS2 that you did like in DS1? What makes you think DS1 was the better experience.

Man, where to start??

The first thing that threw me off was the complete lack of weight. My character glided around like on skates and attacks that landed gave no real feedback of the impact, like my weapon simply clipped through enemies despite registering a reduction in their overall health pool. DS1, your character has weight; heavier armor ?feels? heavy;? you ?feel? the difference between landing a blow with a rapier versus a Black Knight weapon.

The fucking SPAM! They couldn?t make the game interesting, so they just made it difficult by turning every encounter into a gank fest or a boobytrap, from menial enemies to boss fights. DS1 has it?s occasional gank fest or booby trap, but they tend to be few and far between and NOT the essential gimmick upon which it hangs its identity.

The lazy copy/pasting and arbitrary placing of enemies and bosses from both within the game itself and from DS1. Ornstein is in this game because why again? Najka is just Quelaag with a scorpion?s ass instead. FIVE Belfry [DS1] Gargoyles at once because ?difficult.? Beat the Dragon Rider boss fight? Well, here?s one with TWO! Royal Rat Vanguard and Prowling Magus are LITERALLY just a bunch of mobs with a boss health bar?

The complete nonsensical layout of the game. DS1 had a logical interconnected ness with areas naturally blending with their connected areas and it made for a reasonably ?could exist? sort of place. DS2 feels like they had multiple level design teams working independently, then threw the individual complete pieces together from across the room, i.e.: the infamous sea of lava atop the windmill. DS2 would have made more sense with a Super Mario ?Level 2-1, Level 3-1, etc? style with load screens between logically disparate ares rather than attempting to do what DS1 did. Personal experience: I was completely lost on where to go next at one point because the style of game DS2 presented itself as up to that point in no way, shape or form encouraged or taught the back-tracking through literally empty areas of the game that was necessary to proceed; apparently I was supposed to wander aimlessly because ?adventure game??

Hit boxes. Fuck DS2?s hit boxes.DS1?s aren?t always perfect, but neither do it?s enemies and bosses have inordinate amounts of tracking or a fucking ADP stat that cripples your amount of I-frames until you dump valuable leveling resources to boost it back to a level playing field.

DS2 NPC invasions are bullshit; always much more powerful than the player character, often pop in at the LEAST opportune times, and my personal favorite, often resort to tactics used by bullshit human players, i.e.: baiting the player into enemies.

Bullshit stunning locking combined with uninterruptable enemy combos.

The Hollowing mechanic with the only available resource for reversing it being extremely rare until a late-game area offers another way to reverse it. This means many first time players who likely think of DS2?s Human Effigies as the equivalent of DS1?s Humanities (which effectively they ARE) won?t realize this until they?re effectively crippled proving the dev?s commitment to DS2 not only being punishing, but unforgiving to boot.

All in all, DS2?s dev team clearly focused on simply making a worthy successor to DS1?s legendary difficulty above ALL else, and missed the many more important things that made DS1 truly memorable beyond the difficulty. I?ll say this: DS2 is a decent ?game,? but it is a shitty ?sequel.?

 

[CaitSeith]

Gotta wonder the amount of jank contained in a 9 hours long rebuttal.

So we?re clear, MauLer?s 9-hour response is to hbomberguy?s 45 minute ?In Defense of Darks Souls 2? video; MauLer absolutely SHREDS him where he stands with objective and well-researched points of fact and calls out a shit-ton of his jank. It?s actually quite impressive and worth the listen.

If by "shredding" you mean dedicating 8.5 hours to "here he didn't specify if it was a fact or just his opinion, so he is wrong".

Spoiler

EDIT: I also doubt that CritialGaming likes DS2 over DS1 for the same reasons as hbomberguy, so that would be 9 hours of his life he would never get back.

 

[CritialGaming]

Man, where to start??

The first thing that threw me off was the complete lack of weight. My character glided around like on skates and attacks that landed gave no real feedback of the impact, like my weapon simply clipped through enemies despite registering a reduction in their overall health pool. DS1, your character has weight; heavier armor ?feels? heavy;? you ?feel? the difference between landing a blow with a rapier versus a Black Knight weapon.

I never felt this way, though my weapon of choice was a mace and a spear so maybe it was the way I fought. But I always felt weighted and heavy (I liked Havel's gear). I thought the weight of the character felt good and being a walking talk was dope.

The fucking SPAM! They couldn?t make the game interesting, so they just made it difficult by turning every encounter into a gank fest or a boobytrap, from menial enemies to boss fights. DS1 has it?s occasional gank fest or booby trap, but they tend to be few and far between and NOT the essential gimmick upon which it hangs its identity.

What do you mean here? Perhaps this might have been the case in OG DS2, but Scholar of the First Sin (the only one I know mind you) does not have that problem. Dark Souls 1 throws groups are you constantly, not to mention putting loads of enemies that the player can't immediately get to and deal with so they spend lots of time just shooting random shit at you.

I think you and I have to call this point a wash really

The lazy copy/pasting and arbitrary placing of enemies and bosses from both within the game itself and from DS1. Ornstein is in this game because why again? Najka is just Quelaag with a scorpion?s ass instead. FIVE Belfry [DS1] Gargoyles at once because ?difficult.? Beat the Dragon Rider boss fight? Well, here?s one with TWO! Royal Rat Vanguard and Prowling Magus are LITERALLY just a bunch of mobs with a boss health bar?

You are going to compare Najka and Quelaag because they are beast ladies? You think that's fair? I'd understand if Najka did the same shit as Quelaag but she doesn't. Her mechanics and the way that fight goes are completely different and I don't think it's fair to call them the same thing.

Orstein sure I'll give you. Dragonrider...eh yeah sure okay but using the same enemies in a different way isn't the same and spam copy pasting like Capra and Taurus demons. I will agree that if you wanna say DS2 was "dudes in armor" the game though.

As for RRV and PM, what's wrong with mixing up the boss formula? In a game that big there is nothing wrong with doing something different to mix it up. It breaks up the players expectations of boss encounters and that's a good thing. Also you forgot the Skeleton Council fight too.

The complete nonsensical layout of the game. DS1 had a logical interconnected ness with areas naturally blending with their connected areas and it made for a reasonably ?could exist? sort of place. DS2 feels like they had multiple level design teams working independently, then threw the individual complete pieces together from across the room, i.e.: the infamous sea of lava atop the windmill. DS2 would have made more sense with a Super Mario ?Level 2-1, Level 3-1, etc? style with load screens between logically disparate ares rather than attempting to do what DS1 did. Personal experience: I was completely lost on where to go next at one point because the style of game DS2 presented itself as up to that point in no way, shape or form encouraged or taught the back-tracking through literally empty areas of the game that was necessary to proceed; apparently I was supposed to wander aimlessly because ?adventure game??

You wanna call DS1's map sensical? What are you on about? The village that leads to the fortress with a forest that also has an underground town on the side, all which lead to Andor Londo, or hell if you continue going underground. It's connected yes, but only in the same way you complain about DS2's map. Different areas that they just stuck together to make a world, it isn't nearly as coheisive as you imply. At least i didn't feel that way.

However I will say that the individual areas do wrap around themselves in a nice way. Undead Burg is a village map that wraps around itself nicely. But in retrospec, none of the other areas really do that much. Like in DS2 you have your Firelink Shrine, and the directions you can go branch out from there in three or four different ways. Really the only truly interconnected map is Undead Burg because it wraps in a way that you leave firelink to up through the bridge until you get to Sen's Fortresses gate which you can then take the elevator back down to Firelink. However that's the only section of the game that does that. Every other branch you take is a linear path that leads to ultimately a dead end (which a boss that gives you a homeward bone). Eventually you'll have to run backward through that map to get back to Firelink. Until you get the warp ability.

Nothing else in DS1 interconnects. It just LOOKS like it does. Blighttown doesn't go anywhere, it doesn't curve back up or lead to a lift of some kind that takes you back to firelink or even the forest area. That fucking skeleton cave doesn't curve back or hook into any other area. You get to Pinwheel and then have to homeward your ass outta there.

Hit boxes. Fuck DS2?s hit boxes.DS1?s aren?t always perfect, but neither do it?s enemies and bosses have inordinate amounts of tracking or a fucking ADP stat that cripples your amount of I-frames until you dump valuable leveling resources to boost it back to a level playing field.

Not gonna lie, I have never noticed a hit box problem in any Souls-like game. I've had rolls that SHOULD have dodged but didn't but nothing to really make it feel like a big deal. But if you say it's a thing, I'll give you this one.

DS2 NPC invasions are bullshit; always much more powerful than the player character, often pop in at the LEAST opportune times, and my personal favorite, often resort to tactics used by bullshit human players, i.e.: baiting the player into enemies.

I've never had this problem. I found the NPC summons too dumb to be much of a threat, and they don't bait you into anything if you refuse to chase them. Eventually their A.I. will just come back to fight you like a man.

Bullshit stunning locking combined with uninterruptable enemy combos.

Had this problem in DS1 for sure. Don't remember having this issue in any other game

The Hollowing mechanic with the only available resource for reversing it being extremely rare until a late-game area offers another way to reverse it. This means many first time players who likely think of DS2?s Human Effigies as the equivalent of DS1?s Humanities (which effectively they ARE) won?t realize this until they?re effectively crippled proving the dev?s commitment to DS2 not only being punishing, but unforgiving to boot.

Again I never found this to be a problem. At least with DS2 I understood what humanity was for. In DS1 I have no fucking clue what humanity is good for or why I should care....so I never cared about it. I do recall always having plenty of Human Effigies in DS2 so perhaps this was a more personal problem.

All in all, DS2?s dev team clearly focused on simply making a worthy successor to DS1?s legendary difficulty above ALL else, and missed the many more important things that made DS1 truly memorable beyond the difficulty. I?ll say this: DS2 is a decent ?game,? but it is a shitty ?sequel.?

If the dev team only wanted to make a hard game, then why is DS2 so much easier than DS1? Because frankly DS2's enemy encounters, and boss design is far and away better. Personally there were too many times in DS1 where you are facing a boss and just going what the fuck do I do here?

Which isn't necessarily hard. Moonlight Butterfly wasn't a hard fight, but there is a long moment of standing there as a melee person dodging around and wondering if you are fucked because you didn't get a bow or magic. The hydra also is a moment of like, do I fight this? Can I fight this? How do I fight this? Why is this here? Bed of Chaos is another example of WTF.

It's funny you mention ambushes, because I was trying to think about it and i don't remember DS2 having any real "get fucked" moments. However in DS1, I remember lots and lots of rolling boulders, and a dragon you couldn't possibly see coming just burning your as son a bridge, giants chucking stones at you randomly from afar while you stand on thin ass walkways, more rolling stones in Sen's Fortress, loads of enemies just tucked around corners or otherwise out of sight with other enemies right in front of you to distract you for the anal penetration the game is about to give you.

Hey look it's clear that you and I see these games in two completely different lights. I just find it funny how every point you made about why you don't like DS2 i can see a direct comparison in DS1.

Maybe both these games are actually shit and we're both crazy?

 

[Trunkage]

As far as I'm aware, most DS1 lovers love it for the story and lore.

Most still recognise a lot of improvements of gameplay over the years.

My contention with the first statement is based on the fact that I think a lot of the story was made up by the players, as the community had time to ferment and make up fan fiction around events in the story. Solaire being the most glaring example. What 'proof' he was the Nameless King was circumstantial at best. They were told by the creator that they were wrong. And they still didn't listen. They couldn't do this creation of fan fiction in DS2 and 3 as everyone was out, looking for breadcrumbs, looking for a story or through line.

 

[Xprimentyl]

I can see we?re going to largely disagree subjectively, which is fine, so instead of counter each of your points, I?ll clarify my own where I think there might be a misunderstanding. However, I?d encourage you to listen (no need to watch per se to the critique I listed before; it?s very well done and makes most (if not ALL) of my points much more eloquently than I ever could. Not going to say it?ll sway your opinion, but he?s got some undeniable arguments wherein you could at least admit the flaws of a game you love and that your experience never having this or that complaint might have been a stroke of luck or your own genius play.

Lack of weight

I never felt this way, though my weapon of choice was a mace and a spear so maybe it was the way I fought. But I always felt weighted and heavy (I liked Havel's gear). I thought the weight of the character felt good and being a walking talk was dope.

This is going to be a subjective disagreement; I can?t tell you what you experienced, but for me it was the first thing I noticed, literally in Things Betwixt, a feeling of everything just very float-y and off-putting as compared to DS1.

Spam

What do you mean here? Perhaps this might have been the case in OG DS2, but Scholar of the First Sin (the only one I know mind you) does not have that problem. Dark Souls 1 throws groups are you constantly, not to mention putting loads of enemies that the player can't immediately get to and deal with so they spend lots of time just shooting random shit at you.

I think you and I have to call this point a wash really

I played the XB360 version of SotFS which apparently adds some content, but doesn?t affect OG DS2 enemy placements, so I guess my experience is closer to the OG DS2 one, but DS2?s spam is pretty much a universal sticking point with its players. If you honestly feel DS1 does it worse, I can only imagine you were running past and aggro-ing and creating groups of hostile enemies because I can think of very few areas where playing patiently and appreciating the timing of the combat didn?t allow the player to control the situation and which enemies they engaged whereas I can?t count the number of places where DS2?s M.O. was simply to throw groups of enemies at you.

Reused bosses and enemies

You are going to compare Najka and Quelaag because they are beast ladies? You think that's fair? I'd understand if Najka did the same shit as Quelaag but she doesn't. Her mechanics and the way that fight goes are completely different and I don't think it's fair to call them the same thing.

Orstein sure I'll give you. Dragonrider...eh yeah sure okay but using the same enemies in a different way isn't the same and spam copy pasting like Capra and Taurus demons. I will agree that if you wanna say DS2 was "dudes in armor" the game though.

As for RRV and PM, what's wrong with mixing up the boss formula? In a game that big there is nothing wrong with doing something different to mix it up. It breaks up the players expectations of boss encounters and that's a good thing. Also you forgot the Skeleton Council fight too.

The Najka and Quelaag comparison is more pointing the devs inability to be creative and simply re-hashing popular aspects of DS1, i.e.: ?remember the spider lady with tits? Well, let?s do a SCORPION lady!!? Capra and Taurus Demaons in Lost Izalith were an admitted misstep; the were crunched for time and Lost Izalith didn?t get near the attention they wanted to put into it, so I?ll give you it?s one of DS1?s low points. For a game the boasts ?ZOMFG, 41 BOSSES!!!1!!!11,? why was Dragon Rider, arguably one of the games least interesting bosses, chosen to be copy/pasted as often as he was and often in nonsensical places? Would his use ?in a different way? so many times (read that bold part again and let that sink in) not have been better suited to a new enemy type? Preferably one?s that suited the immediate environment? As for RRV and PM, the formula was NOT mixed up; all they did was take a gank squad of mobs (PM) and a gimmicky booby trap (RRV) and slapped a health bar on them; there was not ?mixing up? of a boss formula; it was simply an opportunity to ratchet up the bosses count a couple more times. (And I didn?t forget the Skeleton Lords; just didn?t feel the need to list EVERY infraction as the most egregious of them had already made my point.

Nonsensical Layout

You wanna call DS1's map sensical? What are you on about? The village that leads to the fortress with a forest that also has an underground town on the side, all which lead to Andor Londo, or hell if you continue going underground. It's connected yes, but only in the same way you complain about DS2's map. Different areas that they just stuck together to make a world, it isn't nearly as coheisive as you imply. At least i didn't feel that way.

However I will say that the individual areas do wrap around themselves in a nice way. Undead Burg is a village map that wraps around itself nicely. But in retrospec, none of the other areas really do that much. Like in DS2 you have your Firelink Shrine, and the directions you can go branch out from there in three or four different ways. Really the only truly interconnected map is Undead Burg because it wraps in a way that you leave firelink to up through the bridge until you get to Sen's Fortresses gate which you can then take the elevator back down to Firelink. However that's the only section of the game that does that. Every other branch you take is a linear path that leads to ultimately a dead end (which a boss that gives you a homeward bone). Eventually you'll have to run backward through that map to get back to Firelink. Until you get the warp ability.

Nothing else in DS1 interconnects. It just LOOKS like it does. Blighttown doesn't go anywhere, it doesn't curve back up or lead to a lift of some kind that takes you back to firelink or even the forest area. That fucking skeleton cave doesn't curve back or hook into any other area. You get to Pinwheel and then have to homeward your ass outta there.

Don?t let my caveat that DS1?s world reasonably ?could exist? slide by; I didn?t say it made true-to-life or perfect architectural sense; I [meant] that it fits together logically for a reasonable game world. Undead Burg leads to the Undead Parish (church) which connects back to Firelink and also to fortress that stands as a test of worthiness for those seeking the city of the gods (Anor Londo) situated far above. Undead Burg also connects to Lower Undead Burg which connects to the Depths, a sewer system above an abandoned part of the city long cursed with blight, aka Blighttown, which was preserved (as best could be) by the actions of a Chaos witch who?s taken up residence in the nearby Quelaag?s Domain which is itself conveniently situated above the home of Chaos in the ruins of Lost Izalith. See what I mean? There?s an obvious consideration to the logical [gameplay] layout of DS1?s world that was barely thought of at all during DS2?s development when the places a sea of lava in the sky above a windmill or when they allow two areas to occupy the same space!

Hit boxes.

Not gonna lie, I have never noticed a hit box problem in any Souls-like game. I've had rolls that SHOULD have dodged but didn't but nothing to really make it feel like a big deal. But if you say it's a thing, I'll give you this one.

Look up Dark Souls 2 hit boxes and YouTube; don?t take it from me.

NPC invasions.

I've never had this problem. I found the NPC summons too dumb to be much of a threat, and they don't bait you into anything if you refuse to chase them. Eventually their A.I. will just come back to fight you like a man.

Personal experience, then. I found it exploitative and rarely limited to the same or comparable restrictions as me and no where near as level-grounded as those of DS1.

Stun locking.

Had this problem in DS1 for sure. Don't remember having this issue in any other game

Again, personal experience. Stun locking does occur in DS1, but usually as a result of player with too little poise trying to tank too many hits and is punished. In DS2, I often found myself getting stun locked upon immediately engaging a regular mob or, most often, stun locked because a GANG of mobs had expectedly jumped me because Dark Souls 2.

Hollowing mechanic.

Again I never found this to be a problem. At least with DS2 I understood what humanity was for. In DS1 I have no fucking clue what humanity is good for or why I should care....so I never cared about it. I do recall always having plenty of Human Effigies in DS2 so perhaps this was a more personal problem.

If you feel you had ?plenty? of human effigies your first time through, then you must be better than me. My first time, I was popping them like Skittles until I realized they weren?t as abundant as Humanities, then I had maybe 2-3 or three before realizing it was easier just to wear the ring that limits the health penalty and deal with it by pumping Vitality. Not fun or my favorite use of stat points or ring slots.

Hard for hard?s sake

If the dev team only wanted to make a hard game, then why is DS2 so much easier than DS1? Because frankly DS2's enemy encounters, and boss design is far and away better. Personally there were too many times in DS1 where you are facing a boss and just going what the fuck do I do here?

Which isn't necessarily hard. Moonlight Butterfly wasn't a hard fight, but there is a long moment of standing there as a melee person dodging around and wondering if you are fucked because you didn't get a bow or magic. The hydra also is a moment of like, do I fight this? Can I fight this? How do I fight this? Why is this here? Bed of Chaos is another example of WTF.

It's funny you mention ambushes, because I was trying to think about it and i don't remember DS2 having any real "get fucked" moments. However in DS1, I remember lots and lots of rolling boulders, and a dragon you couldn't possibly see coming just burning your as son a bridge, giants chucking stones at you randomly from afar while you stand on thin ass walkways, more rolling stones in Sen's Fortress, loads of enemies just tucked around corners or otherwise out of sight with other enemies right in front of you to distract you for the anal penetration the game is about to give you.

Hey look it's clear that you and I see these games in two completely different lights. I just find it funny how every point you made about why you don't like DS2 i can see a direct comparison in DS1.

Maybe both these games are actually shit and we're both crazy?

I said they ?wanted? to make a hard, game; I didn?t say they succeeded. Once any player gets used to DS2?s tricks, it?s simply a matter of expecting them and outsmarting their very ham-fisted attempts to best you in their very disjointed, underwhelming and needlessly padded ?Dark Souls Lite? experience. And yes, I never said DS1 was perfect or that some of my complaints in DS2 were entirely absent from DS1; my chief complaint is that some minor complaints in DS1 became major ones in DS2 because the dev?s focus was simply to ?make a harder DS1,? and less an ?engaging sequel that captures the myriad highpoints of its predecessor.?

We?re not crazy; you like what you like, I like what I like and someone?s sure to call us both raving idiots for it. Now to see if I can post this once without having fucked up the quote placements?

EDIT: nailed it.

EDIT EDIT. No, I didn?t?

 

[CritialGaming]

I can see we?re going to largely disagree subjectively, which is fine, so instead of counter each of your points, I?ll clarify my own where I think there might be a misunderstanding. However, I?d encourage you to listen (no need to watch per se to the critique I listed before; it?s very well done and makes most (if not ALL) of my points much more eloquently than I ever could. Not going to say it?ll sway your opinion, but he?s got some undeniable arguments wherein you could at least admit the flaws of a game you love and that your experience never having this or that complaint might have been a stroke of luck or your own genius play.


EDIT: nailed it.

You nailed it indeed.

Yeah we just don't agree and clearly we never will. I can't help but feel like it's just a syndrome of people hating on DS1 because they played and liked DS1 first.

Maybe it's like Final Fantasy games in which the first game you play tends to be your favorite. Even if you don't like other games that have the exact same shit as the one you like has. It's good in your game but bad in others for "reasons".

I have decided to download a DS1 hack so i can run around OP as shit and see if I can get through Bed of Chaos and maybe just have fun being a literal god through all the BS I hate in the game. I might also watch a walkthrough because I have a ton of boss souls and have no idea how to get the special weapons. Been playing the whole game with a Divine Longsword, which is fine because I like swords but there has to be more interesting shit to use that aren't black knight halberds. I hate halberds.

 

[Dansen]

Ds2 is my least favorite souls game to date mostly because of how ugly it looks. Remember how torches were going to be a big deal? Well the shadows aparently caused performance to tank so they cut it well into development, creating this flat ugly desaturated nigtmare. Not to mention enemy design almost exclusivly consists of guy in armor and bigger guy in armor. It's just so uninspired visually outside of a few exceptions. Nobody talks about the bosses in 2 with any reverence. I can only think of five boss fights as being particularly memorable and most of them are armored humanoids.

I wouldn't be surprised if Iudex Gundyr was a dig at Ds2. The first boss is another armored humanoid but thankfully he turns into a monster halfway through. It's a return to form.

The best things 2 did was change enemy placement/invasions or add new ones in ng?. And it added boss soul spells. From needs to bring back the ng+ variation, it was a great idea.

As much as I dumped on it I still had a good time with the game but saying it's flat out better than ds1 is just asinine. Ds1 advanced the formula, ds2 is a sidegrade at best and has had almost no impact on the series.

 

[meiam]

As someone who started with demon's soul (imported the asia version that was completely in english but for some reason never released in the west) I feel like the series has been getting worse lately (but is still very engaging). What I loved about the gameplay was that you needed to make everything you did count, attack were slow and needed long recovery time, stamina cost was high and didn't recover quickly and positioning was absolutely king. Most fight required you to make sure you were in the right place to fight the enemy and then making sure you would dodge (as in move out of the attack rather than press the magic i-frame button) attack in the right direction. It was a slow meticulous adventure. Spamming was heavily punished, you had to learn your weapon reach and speed. I never liked spectacle fighter like devil may cry, where you just had to spam absurd combo and all fight become exactly the same, where the enemy and environment don't matter and all you need to do is just memorize the timing of the combo to juggle enemy, but demon soul and dark soul introduce a new fighting paradigm.

Now I feel like all the gameplay boil down to timing, either parry or i-frame, and nothing else matter. BB went all in on spam fest, letting you easily recover health by just constantly attacking you're enemy (made easy since stamina is functionally infinite). Enemy positioning feel like an afterthought, with few clever positions, both for gameplay and story purpose.

As for bed of chaos... I don't know why it's so hated, you go in once, maybe die to the floor and once you know it you just easily win. It's obvious they had to cut some content there cause they ran out of time so the boss is just a shadow of what it should be, but it's not an annoying boss.

Anyway, one of the reason people loved dark soul when it was released was the idea of "tough but fair" (can't find it but there was a video that perfectly demonstrated this with sen fortress). If you think the game is cheap you're probably playing it wrong and the game is just not for you. That's fine, not every game has to be for everyone.

DS2 was such a disappointment, it weirdly called back to demon's soul by foregoing all the best improvement DS brought in. Demon soul chief problem was that you could brute force any encounter by just bringing thousands of healing item, DS1 wisely introduced estus flask to stop that, DS2 decided to throw that out for some reason and reintroduced farmable consumable. DS1 connected world was amazing, so DS2 threw that out too for no reason. So many recycled content and the story just came out as "remember DS1? well imagine our story is the same".

 

[Phoenixmgs_v1legacy]

I've been saying Dark Souls isn't a good game for years (and I played it really close to release). It feels like a game made by an young dev that doesn't understand RPG mechanics at all (and Dark Souls is their SECOND TRY, not 1st). There's a core stat that does nothing (Resistance), you can block like every attack in the game going full dex-based with just a normal shield and not speccing for blocking whatsoever, there's a stamina system that the dev STILL doesn't understand how to implement properly, etc. The game wants you to fight multiple enemies at once but gives you a combat system and controls that are made for 1v1 fighting so then you just pull enemies to you (with arrows or whatnot) 1 at a time. The game's AI is simplistic as PS1 AI, simple simple simple tactics like arrows (again) or just strafing completely break the game. There's a parry system that only works on like maybe half the enemies and isn't worth doing anyways since you can safely block just about anything and not risk losing any health. Magic is extremely underwhelming and basically cheating because of aforementioned AI.

Design wise, this is easily the worst of the Souls games. It feels like you are almost always fighting in a tight spot and weapon swings seem overly aggressively willing to bound off every wall, pillar, stone, door frame, whatever to ruin your attack and leave you open for an excessively long time. If you get knocked down, you die, because evidently when you get knocked down your character takes a nap just long enough for the enemy to hit you with another knock down swing as you stand up.

Bed of Chaos was where I stopped playing and deleted this piece of trash from my hard drive. Two hours I spend on the Bed of Chaos, each attempt me trying for five seconds to get around the fucking hold in the dirt only to get slapped into it anyway. That's not challenge! That's just fuckery.

Other sections of bullshit is trying to navigate a two inch ledge while archers blast you from both sides with giant arrows, a hydra that just blasts the shit out of you from literaly across the map, a bridge with three incredibly tanky dragons that time their attacks just enough that dodging one gets you hit by the other two, oh and Blighttown can go fuck itself. Even if it no longer drains framerate the way I drain a bottle of Dr. Pepper, the area itself is fucking gastly. Poison floor, poison bugs, poison blow dart fucks from seven directions at once, by the time you get to Gulagg you are coughing your lungs out, even if you just run from the bonfire in the swamp tunnel.

Seriously the design of Dark Souls 1 is shit. They clearly just placed enemies around like a 12 year old designing his first Doom Map where you just sprinkle enemies all over the place at random. There is no logic to enemy placement in at least 75% of the game imo, and the later games show this. Dark Souls 2 and 3 both have some shitty placements designed to jump the player, but they are never cheap enemies and never overwhelming to the point where your first trip through an area 100% is going to kill you. They learned a lot in the later games because I think they knew how bad it was in DS1.

The game is super easy once you just get it through you head that every action you take should be made with survivability in mind. See a group of 3 enemies ahead; pull them one at a time with arrows so you don't fight them all at once. Run in and out of every building to see if there's any *****-ass COD-style campers. Just take your time and pay attention and you'll get through entire dungeons without dying a single time; I remember doing Sen's Fortress and the underground sewers without dying at all. The traps were so obvious in Sen's Fortress it wasn't even funny. The game will do every little cheap thing to kill you but when you do every little cheap thing to not die (since it kinda teaches you that), it becomes joke easy. The infamous archers, poison arrows and they dead. Is it really much fun? Nope because it's not hard to actually execute and the coming up with the solutions, as they are so easy, doesn't make you feel smart at all (like a good puzzle game does). I've been saying forever that Souls games would be so much better if you took out 90+% of the enemies out of the game because the combat isn't near good enough to carry the game. A Souls game that's an environmental puzzler with a few enemies here and there to keep the tension up would be a far better game because it would be playing to the strengths of the game (level design and atmosphere) instead of the weakness (combat).

I must've got super lucky with Bed of Chaos because I did it in a few tries not even thinking much about it and over the years read posts about it how hard and random it is. Blighttown is fine outside of the blowdart enemies. I was literally playing that area while hanging with friends and playing on 10inch really old TV with an RF connection (VHS fuzziness) and couldn't tell at all what the fuck was hitting me. I actually died the most in Undead Burg since I made a thief thinking I can't block and must dodge (because that's how RPG stat stuff is supposed to work), I even practiced the parry a lot there only realizing that's it was basically pointless after I learned how amazing blocking is. And, of course learned that the combat system is horrible for fighting multiple enemies at a time.

Bloodborne is the best Souls game because it basically removes much of what doesn't work like blocking and magic (at least in initial playthrough) and makes parrying actually worth it while working on most enemies. It's still too combat heavy for a game with average combat at best and still has a pointless stamina system.