Darksiders

[DoW Lowen]

I would have to disagree based upon one fact: I don't really think God's or supernatural beings sent to destroy the earth quite care about how practical their attire is.

 

[nohorsetown]

OK, I usually refrain from chirping in on Yahtzee's stuff (he gets enough attention), but that description of "War" was damn hee-larious.. and spot-on-the-money. I'm sick to death of "artistic" overkill. It's so much meaningless wank, and I loved reading such a well-crafted and righteous indictment of it. I know nothing about the author of the following quote.. I just heard it parroted in Civ4.. but I think it's damn appropriate:

"A designer knows he has achieved perfection not when there is nothing left to add, but when there is nothing left to take away."
- Antoine de Saint-Exupry

 

[Tante_Trude]

I think you'd be interested in Joe MAD's first try on videogame design: Dargonkind, a project he and some fellow programmers tried to finish years ago, but development stopped as they ran out of money.

Here a look at Wars precursor:

 

[Switchlurk]

I agree with yahtzee on the need for video game characters to have a fairly distinctive shape and outline. If you listen to the vaulve in game TF2 commentary on character design they say the exact same thing, especailly in a competitive game, you need to see who's who.

But the thing is, while i would cop this argument for the enemies design, i don't buy it for the main character. YES, the main design is over elabroate and compleatly ridicuilous, but for me, that's half the point.

Yeah, i agree, sleek and simple elegence looks cool, but in real life. When i go to fantasy, not only do i want everything to be over exagerated and elaborate, but i expect it. I want to see superhuman feats of strength and power. I want magic to look like a lazer show of cluster effects. And i'm fine with the characters dressed in over elabroate armour. When's the last time you looked at medieval armour? It's quite frankly boring. Fling in a sholder pad the size of a watermellon and a guanlet with metalwork that looks like a gold weaving spider had an epiliptic fit on it and hey hey, im interested agian.

Yeah it looks rediculious, but hell, i'm willing to laugh and just roll with it.

 

[tobyornottoby]

Your right, Character design in TF2 is completely awesome!

Fuck yes, I'm really glad Yahtzee used it as an example. TF2's cast of characters is so amazingly unique in design and personality and just plain awesome.

I love massively overdone character design =p everything else becomes bland and plain though

And yeah sure it all has to be functional. Because women wear high heels to be better/faster at walking

 

[Mirroga]

I was hoping they would make war not human or maybe a demi-human. The horsemen should be taken allegorically, war as in the idea of war. It's not one physical thing, but it is SOMEthing.

As an artist, I tried the non-human-like approach. It might work as a concept art, but it wouldn't work as the main character in a game. Majority of game protagonists are humanoids considering the fact that we get attached to them better. Having hands that slash, fire, or punch and feet that run, sprint or immediately stop gives a certain attachment to gamers. Even specters or animals who are main protagonists in a game have at least some kind of hand or feet to do things.

 

[Catsi]

I never really write in forums, but I felt compelled to say something this time.
Good break downs of the first two characters. However I feel the comparison for War was a little lacking.

First the Sniper and Kratos are people (for lack of a better word).
War is a mythical character that has been forged to perform a service. He is an anthropomorphic personification of warfare itself. He is big, menacing, and while his weaponry and armour might seem to be impractical, they do fulfil a certain sense of impending doom. War is ugly, brutal and Darksiders War actually fits this motif quite well.
Of course this can be done in a variety of ways, with a myriad of character models: lithe killing machines, poly-armed fiends clutching a different weapon in each fist, smooth looking bureaucrats with a briefcase carrying nuclear launch codes and an M16. The possibilities are endless and it's up to each designer to follow their preferred avatar.

But this game designer has a penchant for oversized swords, impractical pauldrons and imposing visages. The designers know Darksiders is a direct translation of God of War; therefore they must make sure War is nothing like Kratos, especially in appearance. When faced with a director who has experience with this method and an avatar of war to build; there is no reason not to go over the top and make their world the twisted, metal grinding, heaven and hell infested playground that it is. Now if Darksiders War had been in God of War, then the entire experience would be so jarring that I can see the conflict. But War actually fits in here.

As for the demonic screaming faces, well they're not so unreasonable. I mean, just look at his employers and suppliers. In addition, his massive gauntlet is also an outlet for harvested souls as well as a weapon he can use for his finishing moves. Since the armour and the weapon is what personifies him, and this is a personification of War that absorbs the souls of his defeated enemies, then I would say the faces are synonymous with his soul sucking armour.

I know this essentially boils down to various personal opinions. That's fair. However, to say that it's impossible to find rhyme or reason behind a character model, that it was overdone simply to make it look "cool", because you personally dislike the overall appearance is a little...disappointing. Objectivism feels essential, especially when dealing with an art style you personally think is largely reserved for spittle frothing, Cheeto stained 14 year old children.
Just thought I'd give my two cents worth. Later!

 

[Ericb]

As an artist, I tried the non-human-like approach. It might work as a concept art, but it wouldn't work as the main character in a game. Majority of game protagonists are humanoids considering the fact that we get attached to them better. Having hands that slash, fire, or punch and feet that run, sprint or immediately stop gives a certain attachment to gamers. Even specters or animals who are main protagonists in a game have at least some kind of hand or feet to do things.

That only means that humanoid character tend to work beter.

But an attempt to provide identification for non-humanoid characters is stil very possible and should be more invested in.

 

[Mirroga]

As an artist, I tried the non-human-like approach. It might work as a concept art, but it wouldn't work as the main character in a game. Majority of game protagonists are humanoids considering the fact that we get attached to them better. Having hands that slash, fire, or punch and feet that run, sprint or immediately stop gives a certain attachment to gamers. Even specters or animals who are main protagonists in a game have at least some kind of hand or feet to do things.

That only means that humanoid character tend to work beter.

But an attempt to provide identification for non-humanoid characters is stil very possible and should be more invested in.

It does work better. I have yet to find a non-humanoid game protagonist which you can immerse yourself into quite nicely. I would love to see it in the future.

 

[iamthehorde]

Yahtzee, you seem to forget that War is not a man. He's a huge bear of a ...something (demigod?), and you can see his ultra muscled, dark skinned chest under his hooded cloak (and that claw thing is called a broach and helps hold the cloak on). The armour pieces themselves make total sense, except maybe the massive glove. However, I'm not sure what you would expect from the Horseman of the Apocalypse known as War... I can't imagine a one-man-army without armour... and it's thickness, well, that increases the toughness of the steel, ie: impact resistance. Also, to assume it's "too big" on any assumptions of how it would affect his agility is whack, considering that he's NOT HUMAN. He can pick up cars and thrown them across a football field... I really can't see that armour hindering him, plus it's not restricting joint movements. My only real issue is the massive left hand thing, as Yahtzee said, makes him have a mutant/huge left hand. Maybe that was the intention - he doesn't HAVE to be symmetrical - but it does seem wierd.

I just wish as much effort was put into his vocabulary and emotions.

You can compare him to Kratos, but it's not the same... War is meant to wage war all by his lonesome (and bring the apocalypse with his 3 other riders), Kratos is similar but not meant to wage an Apocalyptic war, he's more the embodiment of the ultimate killer. And he's actually a god so maybe his skin is as hard as iron. That's the great thing about fiction, you can make up reasons for everything. I think you're just trying to hard to make up bad reasons.

but still, war is unable to climb anything besides demonic moss?

 

[Shamanic Rhythm]

Oh contraire, In Warhammer many parties have resorted to melee combat for whatever reason, so that is why it makes sense. I dont see any "symbolic contents" it seems to like like you're just trying to be conceited. Again you try to say that something in which you have claims is "incoherent and varied", you clearly do not realize the stupididty in this, as I have already pointed out that you have no standing to be able to make such a claim. Perhaps you need to choose your words more carefully.

I never said Fantasy is a liscence to do whatever you want, you are putting words in my mouth, I said the concept behind trying to find fault in the design and practicality of items in a Fantasy world is absolutely stupid.

I'm guessing since you're not down with the whole symbolism thing, you're also not too good with irony.

It is not at all stupid to criticise the practicality of fantasy. You only achieve willing suspension of disbelief if you have coherent logic behind the fantastical concepts you introduce into the world. In literature, a plot resolution achieved through an external device is known as "deus ex machina", and it tends to alienate readers because if you establish boundaries with logical limits, you're expected to stay within them for a resolution. The same principle applies to the practicality of fantasy designs. If we see characters fighting with swords, we expect primitive combat governed by the laws of physics. If you break something like this and create a justification for it that doesn't fit coherently into the overall tenor of your fantasy world, it makes it harder for audiences to willingly suspend disbelief.

How can you claim to know the logic behind a fantasy concept. The fact that it is fantasy is indicative that our logic does not comply. We can safely assume that the guy from Darksiders is closer to a robot than a human, therefore you point is, once again, idiotic. You have yet to clarify what you meant by the "symbolic contents" of the armor, ofcoure its quite likely you were just talking out of your ass.

I don't believe I need to clarify what I meant by the symbolism of his outfit, I should have thought that was pretty obvious to anyone who actually read the article. Fantasy is not indicative that no logic applies. In fact, fantasy really just replaces one accepted system of logic with a different one. We suspend our belief in scientific logic to instead accept the logic of a system of magic or something similar - and it has to have logic, rules and parameters, otherwise it is unconvincing.

 

[mairsil]

Space marine power armour is not over-developed.
it's quite simpel, everyone who sees them knows: that is a space marine.

 

[DayDark]

For a guy having two right shoulders, I guess he's alright.

 

[Weaver]

I was hoping they would make war not human or maybe a demi-human. The horsemen should be taken allegorically, war as in the idea of war. It's not one physical thing, but it is SOMEthing.

As an artist, I tried the non-human-like approach. It might work as a concept art, but it wouldn't work as the main character in a game. Majority of game protagonists are humanoids considering the fact that we get attached to them better. Having hands that slash, fire, or punch and feet that run, sprint or immediately stop gives a certain attachment to gamers. Even specters or animals who are main protagonists in a game have at least some kind of hand or feet to do things.

He can still be humanoid but he doesn't have to essentially BE human. I'm thinking something along the lines of this: http://www.gosfordhobbies.com.au/shop/images/P/newimagelge-67.gif

 

[ostro-whiskey]

Good Article. For me the look of War was so over the top silly that I wrote the game off as childish crap. Having read the review by John Funk I would consider getting it now if it came out for the PC but that is despite the stupid look of war and not because of it.

Lol, I found this pretty amusing. It sounds like an attempt made by Yahtzee to try an justify his comments on design, but the fact that he tries to comment on the PRACTICALITY of a FANTASY character just makes him look stupid.

Fantasy requires a suspension of disbelief, does anyone ask why in Tolkiens Lord of the Rings world that in 3000 years people are still running around with medieval weaponry. The same goes with Warhammer 40k, and I suppose Darksiders.

Ummm, no. Fantasy does not give one a pass on practicality or rationality. That is just lazy.

It obviously cant be something absolutely spurious that makes no sense in any reality, but you are just trying to be a smart ass by saying thats what Im claiming. What Im claiming is you cant claim to know how armor or weaponry functions in a fantasy world with magic and demons and bs.

As such your an imbecile for trying to base your dislike of it on practicality.

Don't use the word imbecile dear, it makes you sound like a cartoon scientist.

While suspension of disbelief can be used to explain away the supposed practicality of the armour, it can't wave away the fact that the armour isn't practical from a design stand-point. It's convoluted, hard to animate and render, indistinguishable from the common enemies when in a huddle, and is not overall aesthetically pleasing. At least, to me anyway.

OT: I agree.

And had Yahtzee simply claimed that the armor is ridiculous from a technical point of view I wouldnt have said anything, but as usual he cant stop himself from trying to look like an over qualified smartass.
Ill use whatever word I want consarnit.

You seem to harbor resentment to old Ben, did he hurt you?

I dont harbor anything, but dont you think that a man paid to be a reviewer should be able to keep his composure instead of gushing forth with all kinds of emotionally charged ***** fest remeniscient of a 12 year old girl.

 

[ostro-whiskey]

Oh contraire, In Warhammer many parties have resorted to melee combat for whatever reason, so that is why it makes sense. I dont see any "symbolic contents" it seems to like like you're just trying to be conceited. Again you try to say that something in which you have claims is "incoherent and varied", you clearly do not realize the stupididty in this, as I have already pointed out that you have no standing to be able to make such a claim. Perhaps you need to choose your words more carefully.

I never said Fantasy is a liscence to do whatever you want, you are putting words in my mouth, I said the concept behind trying to find fault in the design and practicality of items in a Fantasy world is absolutely stupid.

I'm guessing since you're not down with the whole symbolism thing, you're also not too good with irony.

It is not at all stupid to criticise the practicality of fantasy. You only achieve willing suspension of disbelief if you have coherent logic behind the fantastical concepts you introduce into the world. In literature, a plot resolution achieved through an external device is known as "deus ex machina", and it tends to alienate readers because if you establish boundaries with logical limits, you're expected to stay within them for a resolution. The same principle applies to the practicality of fantasy designs. If we see characters fighting with swords, we expect primitive combat governed by the laws of physics. If you break something like this and create a justification for it that doesn't fit coherently into the overall tenor of your fantasy world, it makes it harder for audiences to willingly suspend disbelief.

How can you claim to know the logic behind a fantasy concept. The fact that it is fantasy is indicative that our logic does not comply. We can safely assume that the guy from Darksiders is closer to a robot than a human, therefore you point is, once again, idiotic. You have yet to clarify what you meant by the "symbolic contents" of the armor, ofcoure its quite likely you were just talking out of your ass.

Uhh there is logic in every single fantasy story that there is. Only a fool tries to argue that our logic does not apply when our logic is applied to these worlds all the time.

Ohh, you must be referring to the logic of magic, and midichlorians. Lets not forget the logic of monsters and the supernatural. Nice one douchebag.

logic doesn't have to be realistic. Logic is just a set of rules that apply to a setting.

Wtf ?
Do you even know what you're saying. Logic is the act of reasoning, from your response you dont seem to have much.

 

[ostro-whiskey]

Oh contraire, In Warhammer many parties have resorted to melee combat for whatever reason, so that is why it makes sense. I dont see any "symbolic contents" it seems to like like you're just trying to be conceited. Again you try to say that something in which you have claims is "incoherent and varied", you clearly do not realize the stupididty in this, as I have already pointed out that you have no standing to be able to make such a claim. Perhaps you need to choose your words more carefully.

I never said Fantasy is a liscence to do whatever you want, you are putting words in my mouth, I said the concept behind trying to find fault in the design and practicality of items in a Fantasy world is absolutely stupid.

I'm guessing since you're not down with the whole symbolism thing, you're also not too good with irony.

It is not at all stupid to criticise the practicality of fantasy. You only achieve willing suspension of disbelief if you have coherent logic behind the fantastical concepts you introduce into the world. In literature, a plot resolution achieved through an external device is known as "deus ex machina", and it tends to alienate readers because if you establish boundaries with logical limits, you're expected to stay within them for a resolution. The same principle applies to the practicality of fantasy designs. If we see characters fighting with swords, we expect primitive combat governed by the laws of physics. If you break something like this and create a justification for it that doesn't fit coherently into the overall tenor of your fantasy world, it makes it harder for audiences to willingly suspend disbelief.

How can you claim to know the logic behind a fantasy concept. The fact that it is fantasy is indicative that our logic does not comply. We can safely assume that the guy from Darksiders is closer to a robot than a human, therefore you point is, once again, idiotic. You have yet to clarify what you meant by the "symbolic contents" of the armor, ofcoure its quite likely you were just talking out of your ass.

I don't believe I need to clarify what I meant by the symbolism of his outfit, I should have thought that was pretty obvious to anyone who actually read the article. Fantasy is not indicative that no logic applies. In fact, fantasy really just replaces one accepted system of logic with a different one. We suspend our belief in scientific logic to instead accept the logic of a system of magic or something similar - and it has to have logic, rules and parameters, otherwise it is unconvincing.

Now you are trying to weasel out of the arguement by claiming that the point I made (which applied to the practical application of materials in a fantasy world) was directed at all universal laws in a fantasy world, which I never said or even hinted upon. You could make a good b grade lawyer with these rat skills, or maybe not.

 

[Mirroga]

He can still be humanoid but he doesn't have to essentially BE human. I'm thinking something along the lines of this: http://www.gosfordhobbies.com.au/shop/images/P/newimagelge-67.gif

That's what I'm getting at. A non-human-like approach is common in video games and a lot in media. But you can never/rarely remove humanoid elements since those elements are the ones which immerse us with the characters, a face we can remember, and hands we can use. I can create a spectral being as a main protagonist, but I cannot change its head shape or anatomy into something outside humanity or remove his hands whenever he tries to do something. It's because if I remove those things, the gamer/reader would not be able to comprehend or immerse or understand it, thus becoming less appealing.

 

[Falseprophet]

This is the same Joe Mad who wrote and pencilled Battlechasers, one of the few comics I collected in the 90s because I liked the characters and story. They were by no means original, but interesting enough. And then he introduced the character of Red Monika, who's supposed to be an acrobatic master thief. So naturally, he has 2/3 of her total body weight located between her collarbone and navel. Because we know how important ballast is for doing backflips:

And yes, like most comic artists in the 90s, he took a cue from Rob Liefeld, of the Big Guns, Belts with Lots of Pouches and Can't Draw Feet Fame. Unfortunately for Liefeld, all of his imitators could draw better than him, so he ends up looking really bad: http://progressiveboink.com/archive/robliefeld.html

 

[Parallel Streaks]

Good Article. For me the look of War was so over the top silly that I wrote the game off as childish crap. Having read the review by John Funk I would consider getting it now if it came out for the PC but that is despite the stupid look of war and not because of it.

Lol, I found this pretty amusing. It sounds like an attempt made by Yahtzee to try an justify his comments on design, but the fact that he tries to comment on the PRACTICALITY of a FANTASY character just makes him look stupid.

Fantasy requires a suspension of disbelief, does anyone ask why in Tolkiens Lord of the Rings world that in 3000 years people are still running around with medieval weaponry. The same goes with Warhammer 40k, and I suppose Darksiders.

Ummm, no. Fantasy does not give one a pass on practicality or rationality. That is just lazy.

It obviously cant be something absolutely spurious that makes no sense in any reality, but you are just trying to be a smart ass by saying thats what Im claiming. What Im claiming is you cant claim to know how armor or weaponry functions in a fantasy world with magic and demons and bs.

As such your an imbecile for trying to base your dislike of it on practicality.

Don't use the word imbecile dear, it makes you sound like a cartoon scientist.

While suspension of disbelief can be used to explain away the supposed practicality of the armour, it can't wave away the fact that the armour isn't practical from a design stand-point. It's convoluted, hard to animate and render, indistinguishable from the common enemies when in a huddle, and is not overall aesthetically pleasing. At least, to me anyway.

OT: I agree.

And had Yahtzee simply claimed that the armor is ridiculous from a technical point of view I wouldnt have said anything, but as usual he cant stop himself from trying to look like an over qualified smartass.
Ill use whatever word I want consarnit.

You seem to harbor resentment to old Ben, did he hurt you?

I dont harbor anything, but dont you think that a man paid to be a reviewer should be able to keep his composure instead of gushing forth with all kinds of emotionally charged ***** fest remeniscient of a 12 year old girl.

He's not really a reviewer, he's an entertainer with reviewing as his shtick. You think the majority of people watch these videos and read these articles because they seriously want feedback on something? They go to Game Magazine or PC Gamer for that.

Anyhow, this is my last comment on the thread, we're not really going anywhere relevant with this.